Looking for opinions. Car is at Original Customs for some repairs. 1.7 not running well, compression down on one cylinder, perhaps some FI work. Mark has suggested a 2056 build as an option over just rebuilding the 1.7 as needed.

Do you think the added cost may be recouped in resale someday? I was not looking for an improvement in performance when I took it to him, but a safe, somewhat dependable driver. I am more inclined to spend the difference in price on other repairs.

What do you think?

Just do it as long as your are not worried about originality. Night and day difference in driving ability. Cost should be slightly more from stock engine due to crankshaft and rods.

Lots if drawbacks besides the originality card,...keep it stock 1.7 if you are mostly interested in a reliable driver.

[quote name='JeffBowlsby' date='Mar 2 2019, 11:50 AM' post='2693550']
Lots if drawbacks besides the originality card



Such as ???

If you want a 2056 thats ok buy one and have fun but save and rebuild your original engine if ever needed

Life is short.

Put one of Mark's GREAT 2056 engines in there and live a little.

If your car is in amazing, original condition.... I would rebuild the 1.7 and move one step closer to improving an original car.

But.....

I drove a 1.7 for many years, then installed a 2056.

I should have done it earlier. (But my car was ugly..... so it didn't hurt the originality, etc.)

Good luck!

ps - I never hated the 1.7. In fact, when the FI worked well, it was a great driver. Just no grunt.

Thanks for the input. One thing I was hoping for was some insight into what the added value of the 2056 would be. While not planning on selling any time soon, wondering what premium the 2056 would bring over the stock engine.

[quote name='enf2232' date='Mar 3 2019, 07:16 AM' post='2693768']
Thanks for the input. One thing I was hoping for was some insight into what the added value of the 2056 would be. While not planning on selling any time soon, wondering what premium the 2056 would bring over the stock engine.
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You dont do the 2056 for resale .

Thats why you save the original engine .

Do you think the added cost may be recouped in resale someday?




Not even on a good day.

Go check any copy of AutoTrader, BAT post, Hemmings, etc.

Famous quote of cars for sale . . . . $30K invested . . . asking $19K or something to that effect.

I should clarify . . nothing against anyone doing big bores engines or any other aftermarket modifications. Many are very well done by the vendor and add value for the current owner's enjoyment.

Just don't expect that you'll ever recoup the cost at the expense of the next buyer.

Cars depreciate over time with only rare exceptions. Just an unfortunate reality of our hobby.

Classic car values are increasing all the time. Your question is will my 914 which is worth $xx right now with a 1.7L engine be worth $xx + $yy with a well sorted 2056 where $yy was the difference in price between refreshing a 1.7L and building a 2056?

My opinion is you won't recoup all of the $yy you put into a 2056. You will transform your 914 from an absolute slug on the road to a car with some real grunt. You will be able to feel the acceleration with the 2056 that you don't get with the 1.7L. The 914 will be much more fun to drive with the 2056.

Here's a question for anyone with the 1.7L 914: Which modern cars do you think you'd be able to out-drag from one traffic light to the next?

When my 914 had a 1.7L, the only vehicles on the road that I could out-drag were full semi-tractors.

I say build the 2056 over a 1.7L. A 2L engine in a 914 ups the value what say 25-45%?
Plus you say you are keeping the car so just enjoy driving the damn thing with the waay better motor in it for awhile.
I would suggest to get a 2.0L Djet FI setup too and do it right as halfassed cars are a dime a dozen....

Here's a question for anyone with the 1.7L 914: Which modern cars do you think you'd be able to out-drag from one traffic light to the next?

Answer None. I have a 2006 Mazda MPV minivan that is faster than my 1.7L 914 was.


Fast was never the point of a 914.


However the 914 will take a freeway clover leaf posted for 30 mph at easily double that and can be done at nearly triple under the right conditions (grippy tires, a skilled driver, dry conditions, no debris on road). That is the point of a 914.

Don't want to stir the pot too much. Big bore will add fun to the car.

Just don't expect to recoup the cost.

Houses are typically an appreciating asset. Rarely does a kitchen update or a bathroom update recoup full value invested. Why would you expect a depreciating object like a car to recoup full value of "investment"?

The 2056 value should be measured in how much more you’ll enjoy the car between the day you get to start driving it and the day you’ll sell it. If you’re keeping it a few years, the investment is well worth the investment. If you’re selling soon then do the least work you can get away with and still make the car driveable.

Quick & dirty - keep the car basically orig.
(If that mtr is OG to the car) address its running issues & increase disp. to 1.9L (1911) via relatively inexpensive P&C kit.
Itll have some added omph! Not quite 2056 level but noticeable.
Outwardly itll be basically stock.
D-Jet *can* be "tuned" to accommodate the added disp. BTDT

Pickle and wrap the original 1.7 as is. Put it in storage.
You should be able to find a core for a reasonable price to build into a 2056.
for $500-$1000 more, you now have the best of both worlds: The original motor for originality if every wanted again, and a fun 2056 for your use.

Think about what it entails to build a 1.7 and a 2056. Not much difference in cost for cylinder and Pistons sets. Not much difference in cost of crank. It cost about the same to have both sets of heads refreshed. They use the same cam? The 1.7 built to 1911 will have about the same hp as a stock 2.0, and lots more torque! The 2056 becomes a engine of it's own with a hot cam, and that's where the cost comes in. Cam and valve train! I built my 2056 with Raby cam chromolly pushrods and 911 adjusters.
Tons of fun, and won't be out ran by a stock Miata! About 800 bucks more that building a stock 2.0

Factually, what are the real numbers for the HP/torque gain. 1.7L to 2056? Not seat of the pants impressions.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=336475

Stock:
1.7-80hp
2.0-95hp
2.1-95hp
2.1-Raby cam stuff-120hp

Source for those HP numbers? TQ values?

With only a 100cc increase (5%) over a stock 2.0L have a real hard time believing that results in a 25% HP increase.

Then whatever that increase is, in terms of power:weight ratio gain it cannot be much net performance gain.

We’re in a funny state right now with 914s, one that I think early aircooled 911 owners were in maybe 20 years ago. Instead of just being cool cars that could be built how we want, everything thing comes under scrutiny about whether it will hurt future value. The very best 914s are starting to draw some real money (ten years ago some of these sale prices would have been laughable), so it gets everyone thinking that maybe my 914 is worth $30k if I don’t do anything “wrong” to it. At this point, it’s still a very rare and special car that’s worth that kind of money.

So, another question the OP could ask is, will he make the money back down the road on a proper 1.7 rebuild? Because as has been pointed out, it’ll cost nearly as much as 2056. I can of understand why a 73 2.0 is the next great collectible 914 next to a 914-6, but why should an original 1.7 fall into that same category? If I was buying a really nice one, I’d want that awesome 2056! But I’m always bastardizing my cars.

Obviously because of my ranting, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this. I’m continuing to work on my 944 turbo, and it sort of falls into the same category as 914, a car that is in the upswing in value, but it’s deceiving because it mostly applies to the very best original low mileage cars. Mine is getting built into a fast, fun, boosting beast of a car, and my 914 will be built into a GT look-alike. When I’m dead and gone, my daughters will have to grapple with their value on the market. Hopefully they’ll make a few bucks!

I've nearly stopped referencing HP/torque numbers altogether. What the engine FEELS like while driving is everything. If you want to talk about HP and torque, you should also be asking about what RPM peak torque is at. You should be looking at the area under the curve. Yes, peak HP and peak Torque aren't that much higher, but the area under the curve is larger. So if you're going to propose a by-the-numbers comparison, you SHOULD be looking at far more than just peak HP/torque. It's like deciding if a birthday cake is going to be amazing or mediocre based on sugar quantity. There's so much more to a cake than just sugar. There's so much more to an engine than peak HP/torque.

What are your goals with the car? Is it an "investment" car to you? Looking to maximize resale?

What are the other repairs the car needs?

The ultimate value in the car, for current collectors, is originality (ie, patina of complete original car) or a full restoration. Anywhere where short of those there won't be much of a price difference.

As others mentioned, the best case is, assuming numbers matching, store the 1.7 and put in a more powerful motor - 1911? stock 2.0? 2056? All of these will make drving the car more fun.

Costs could be recouped, depending on what the next owner is looking for. A fun "custom", then yes, money recouped. Concours Queen? nope. Resto project? nope.

I went from an 80hp 1.7 DJet, to Carbs and then to a 2056. That was a great motor - about 120hp, larger/stronger tq and hp curves for the car. Really woke it up and allowed me to keep up with regular traffic.

Car went from 2000lb/80hp= 25lb/hp
to 2000lb/120hp = 16.7lb/hp. That is a very noticeable improvement. Nearly 50% more HP! Not sure if the motor proposed would keep the DJet, but even if it was a little less hp than a dual carb set up, you'd still be at 100-105-110hp which would be nice.

even just a factory 2.0 with 95 hp = 21lb/hp

Guess it comes down to building/having a car you enjoy or guessing what a future buyer would want. That would seem a fools game to worry about the next guy.

Dyno tests but this is with full Raby cam/lifter/valvetrain/CR increase, headwork

My 2056 dynoed at 127 at the rear wheels. Assuming only 15% drive loss, that's 146 at the crank.

Joe's 2056 dynoed at 130 crank IIRC, and he was still using tuned Djet to run it.

Zach

Amen.

"It's like deciding if a birthday cake is going to be amazing or mediocre based on sugar quantity. There's so much more to a cake than just sugar. There's so much more to an engine than peak HP/torque." May have to quote you on that. Speaks volumes in just three sentences.

To the OP: If a 2056 can be built to look like the 1.7, I can't see anything but value add, even if/as the market goes up. More importantly, the car will be more fun to drive.

It's a bit like a stock 914-6 vs one with a 2.2 or a stronger 2.0 built on the original engine case. I know which one I'd rather have, and can't see the 2.2 or stronger 2.0 ever hurting the value of a nice 914-6. "Original" is a romantic notion, and one very rarely applied to old cars. I value it, too, particularly when it comes to surfaces and items you can look at or touch (so long as they're still presentable). But I'd rather have something I will enjoy. Often.

Just my two cents...

pete

Totally agree . if you punch it out to 2056 or 1911
Its still technically numbers correct orignal case . and a hell of a lot more fun .when you go to sell i doubt anyone will scoff or walk away or offer you less cause its been .

Always use this term " overborred "

It a numbers matching 1.7 overbored thats all

Or you could just be honest about what you are selling...

I don't think anyone is advocating anything else?

If you do that big bore motor, documenting everything that is done with receipts and pictures will help recoup a bit more of your investment. Still, I think originality is best for a future sale.

As an owner of an Original Customs 2056 conversion (of a 2.0L) I can tell you the car is in another league in terms of fun driveability.

It really brought the car a lot closer to my Boxster's performance.

Best!

TomClick to view attachment

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a stock Euro spec 2.0 gets 100hp with the only difference being flat topped 8.0:1 compression pistons. Since that's a pretty common mod for an easyh 5hp, even when rebuilding a 2.0 to "stock," it seems like it should be on the option list.

Who buys these cars to make money on them?

I bought the ones I've owned to have fun with them and if they do go up in value, that's just an added benefit.

Plus, I would be sad without a 914.

I may be in the minority here.

I put most of my money into suspension and restoration of the car in it.s original state.

I.ve had plenty of fun with an excellent running 1.7.

Have Mark make sure your tub is straight and all rust abatated.

My .02.