Guys,

I have always been fascinated by lightweight cars (maybe because i am a fat ass). the lotus Elise (the original 96' one) is the standard of what i like. My 914 is my fun car, so it does not need to have any creature comforts other than a windshield, seat, floors and doors.

My question is, how fast would a 1800 pound 914 with a 115 hp type IV really be? Any ideas?

Plus, what would you guys recommend I do next. I have already stripped and boxed most of the interior, spare tire, tools, loose changes, etc. What should be next on the list. I'm thinking about a header system. I am also thinking about gutting the doors and replacing the bumpers with FG. Plus, I am going to remove the fogs and the center console. Keep in mind, I don't really want to "gut the car" until it is race-only. Think minimalist, not masochist.

I had a very similar idea. I wanted to do that to a street car, just light and fast. I have a line on a 72 for 100$ and I may try that with that car.. We'll see if I can find any more time or interest in a four cylinder powered 914.

what year is the car? pre '73 cars had much lighter doors ...

remove the tar paper from the floor, that's about ~40lbs.

FG bumpers and CF deck lids ...

depending on the year of the car, you'll need to lose between 300lbs and 400lbs to reach your 1800lbs goal.

keep all the stuff you take out and put it on a scale so you know exactly how much you removed ...

Andy

QUOTE (Greg Bell @ Jun 22 2005, 01:02 PM)

My question is, how fast would a 1800 pound 914 with a 115 hp type IV really be? Any ideas?

aha. a trick questyion...

your top speed is drag-limited.

it will be just as fast at 1800 lbs as it will be at any other weight.

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Jun 22 2005, 09:34 AM)

QUOTE (Greg Bell @ Jun 22 2005, 01:02 PM) My question is, how fast would a 1800 pound 914 with a 115 hp type IV really be? Any ideas? aha. a trick questyion... your top speed is drag-limited. it will be just as fast at 1800 lbs as it will be at any other weight.

how rapidly will an 1800# 115HP T-4 914 ACCELERATE then?

maybe we should ask ury914? his probably weighed 1800# at some point in time.

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jun 22 2005, 09:29 AM)

what year is the car? pre '73 cars had much lighter doors ... remove the tar paper from the floor, that's about ~40lbs. FG bumpers and CF deck lids ... depending on the year of the car, you'll need to lose between 300lbs and 400lbs to reach your 1800lbs goal. keep all the stuff you take out and put it on a scale so you know exactly how much you removed ... Andy

300lbs to get to 1800lbs? The published weights for the '70 1.7 with steel wheels was 1980lbs, which I suspect was with no gas in the tank (100lbs right there). 30lbs by going to 2.0 Fuchs, 40lbs by removing the tar. 70lbs with fiberglass front and rear lids and bumpers. You're now down to 1840lbs with no gas.

115hp gives you 16lbs/hp, which is nice, but not really enough. 15lbs/hp is about enough to vanquish the typical Japanese hot hatch, but you need to get down to around 10lbs/hp to take on things like an S2000, Mustangs, or older Vettes. As I recall, the original Elise was under 10lbs/hp. 180hp is hard to achieve with a Type IV w/o spending serious money. It's easy with a Six, but you actually need to make more, as the Six itself adds weight back. A 200hp tuned 3.0 with the above mods to a '70-71 car should get you there. A 3.2 would do it pretty easily. Now the problem is traction, as you're still using fairly skinny tires, so you'd need wider wheels and tires (more weight), and thus more power to compensate.

A mild turbo Soob 2.5 (200-250hp) would really be the ticket, as the Soob engine is roughly the same weight as the Type IV, so you can reach 10lbs/hp pretty easily.

6.5lbs/hp with my V8 car, full interior, late doors.
Maybe I should find some early doors and lighten up the interior. Ditch the orig. bumpers and get some CF lids. Hmmm... might be able to get down to 6lbs/hp.

All I know is I pulled even with a Mitsu Evo on the highway last night and we punched off. Fourth gear and I left him in a hurry. Rolled off the gas at about 110mph and he looked mighty suprised when he came back along side me.

The only replacment for displacment is low weight!

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jun 22 2005, 10:56 AM)

300lbs to get to 1800lbs? The published weights for the '70 1.7 with steel wheels was 1980lbs

yes, Leergewicht nach DIN (which means EMPTY weight) ...

1969 - 1972:
=========
914-4: 900 kg = 1984.16 lbs
914-6: 940 kg = 2072.34 lbs

1973 - 1974:
=========
914-4: 950 kg = 2094.39 lbs

1975 - 1976:
=========
914-4: 1000 kg = 2204.62 lbs


i'm assuming he wants GAS in his car while he drives it, so adding that to the equation, i estimated ~2100 lbs for a early car and ~2200 lbs for a later car.
a '75-76 would be ~2300 lbs ...

Andy

My Elise has a 10 gallon tank. And it gets 28 mpg in combined city/highway driving...

Put a fuel cell in your car and save some weight.

Don't forget his (self proclaimed) fat ass! that has to clock in at at least 200!

QUOTE (gopack @ Jun 22 2005, 11:22 AM)

Don't forget his (self proclaimed) fat ass! that has to clock in at at least 200!

what is that supposed to mean?

i'm 220lbs and i'm not FAT ...
Andy

All I can say is that my car which is proabably down to around 1850 lbs without fuel or driver hauls as$ with a stock 1.8 liter engine. ...well its as fast as a stock 2.0. Dont forget to get a lieghtweight flywheel. and remeber you can get a fiberglass engine compartment lid as well.

I'm curious to know how much weight one would lose by using a fuel cell as opposed to the stock tank? Also is there a light weight battery that is reliable for our cars?

Oh yeah I weigh 265 lbs

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jun 22 2005, 11:29 AM)

QUOTE (gopack @ Jun 22 2005, 11:22 AM) Don't forget his (self proclaimed) fat ass!  that has to clock in at at least 200! what is that supposed to mean? i'm 220lbs and i'm not FAT ... Andy

not fat, but you have a head the size of a prize winning watermelon...

220? freek! im 155!

thats why its so fast...

No replacement for displacement except forced induction.

thats my moto!

Oh ya, it will feel quick, but by no means fast. Just about 1/2 the cars on the road will be able to stomp you at the traffic light with 1800lbs and 115hp... And if they are new cars, 3/4 of the new cars on the market could smoke you like no tomorrow.

Sorry, did I make you feel small?

hehehe

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jun 22 2005, 11:39 AM)

but you have a head the size of a prize winning watermelon...

true, but at least i have a running 914!
Andy

OOOOHHHH DIIIISSSED!!!!!!

sorry.... im hyper...

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jun 22 2005, 11:44 AM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jun 22 2005, 11:39 AM) but you have a head the size of a prize winning watermelon... true, but at least i have a running 914! Andy

when Sherryl and I left Marks last Saturday she asked if I'm always "teased" about not having a running 914???...."yea, pretty much"....that has got to change

its your engine dude... you need a replacement....

This might be a better power source

As seen on a bumper sticker:

I may be fat, but you are ugly and I can always go on a diet

lite weight wheels and tires make a huge difference...not cheap however depending on what size you want.....for the bucks, cannot beat the 15" Fuchs (4 or 5 lug)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jun 22 2005, 11:52 AM)

for the bucks, cannot beat the 15" Fuchs (4 or 5 lug)

yes, you can ...

the 15 x 7 cookie cutters are only 1lbs heavier than the 15 x 7 Fuchs at 1/4 of the price ...
Andy

We'll if your considering GF panels then your already down down the rocky road to excessive lightness, although i don't think there is such a thing..

Other idea's:
Lexan / perspex windows. Both the 3/4 windows & rear window are dead easy. Windscreen is harder & way more expensive.
Strip interior, tar, carpets etc.
Cut down wiring loom for any auxiliary wires your no longer using. Eg trunk light.
Remove every piece of trim which doesn't directly assist in you going forward :-) so clocks, interior lights, backpad.

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jun 22 2005, 02:48 PM)

when Sherryl and I left Marks last Saturday....

Easy:

Change all bolt on body pieces to f/g
Remove the following:
Heater boxes and related crap
Fresh air crap under front hood
all sound proofing.
Back pad
carpet
cut out sheetmetal shield over the muffler
Change rear window to plastic
Cut out the wires that don't do anything
Cut out or remove everything that doesn't make it stop, go or turn.

Done

Paul

If anyone should know..

M

So, for my 73 2.0


Where is the best place to buy fiberglass bumpers, hood, trunk and engine lid?

Does the rear glass have any structrual purpose? I don't mean to be silly, but will it change anything if I take it out? Heck, why not take it out alltogether?


Any ideas on how to replace the wiring harness? I was thinking about ripping out the old one and just doing a to bare minimum. Heck, my wiring is so screwed up it will probably help!

Hey, I am losing weight! I have lost thirty pounds in the last three months! More to come, hopefully!

How much would a fuel cell save?

QUOTE (Greg Bell @ Jun 22 2005, 05:57 PM)

Where is the best place to buy fiberglass bumpers, hood, trunk and engine lid? Does the rear glass have any structrual purpose? I don't mean to be silly, but will it change anything if I take it out? Heck, why not take it out alltogether? Any ideas on how to replace the wiring harness? I was thinking about ripping out the old one and just doing a to bare minimum. Heck, my wiring is so screwed up it will probably help! How much would a fuel cell save?

i like Getty. there is also at least one East Coast glass shop that seems to be reliable.

the car will be INCREDIBLY LOUD without the back glass, plus it keeps out a LOT of rust-forming water. if you don't think so, ask the guys who've had leaky windows about their inner firewall rust... but structurally? nothing...

a proper wiring harness is a PITA but it is not rocket science - it's "just" a matter of keeping track of dozens of wires and making sure they get the proper connectors where they need to be. i'd suggest you get as many different colors of wire as possible, and try to keep them as close to the original color code as possible. do not scrimp on gauge - the factory already did that, and going smaller is probably not a great idea.

the factory tank is mostly just space and not that heavy, and gallon for gallon, a cell won't save you that much in weight. the big difference is in leaving out gasoline - 6.5 lbs/gal. if you put only 6 gal in your stock take, you've saved 65 lbs.

"the factory tank is mostly just space and not that heavy, and gallon for gallon, a cell won't save you that much in weight. the big difference is in leaving out gasoline - 6.5 lbs/gal. if you put only 6 gal in your stock take, you've saved 65 lbs. "


that is a good point!

How much weight do the fg bumpers save?

Howsabout the hood and lid?

I called on that 72 so I may go pick it up. It would be really cool to slap a subaruy motor in it and run with no windshield and no glass. Just like a speedster. Low, wide, light and powerful. How much better could you get? I bet you could get a running street legal car to sub 1800lbs with mostly steel body.

QUOTE (Greg Bell @ Jun 22 2005, 03:19 PM)

How much weight do the fg bumpers save? Howsabout the hood and lid?

front hood and rear lid:

10 to 20 pounds depending on brand and thickness of 'glass
(my carbonfiber lids wiegh ~15 each compared to the 30+ pounds of the stock parts....exact numbers posted someplace)

same for bumpers if it's a '74 or older...much more weight savings if '75/'76

QUOTE (Greg Bell @ Jun 22 2005, 02:19 PM)

How much weight do the fg bumpers save? Howsabout the hood and lid?

It depends entirely on the parts you put back on. The front and rear deck lids weigh 30lbs each, and early chrome bumpers (no bumper tits) weigh about 25lbs each. So, leaving the parts off completely saves about 110lbs. The only set of FG decklids I've had on hand weighed about 15lbs each, and the bumpers about 5lbs each. So, 50lbs less total. CF lids are likely lighter still, but more costly.

One problem with running a CF front lid is you have to come up with some alternative method of holding it up when you fill the tank. The springs will HAVE to be removed, as the 'glass lids are too floppy to retain them. A hood prop that works on the hinge itself is probably the best bet here.

The rear glass doesn't weigh much, maybe 3 lbs. I'd keep it.

I'd construct a race only harness by hand, but I'd find a full road car harness more daunting. This consumes a LOT of time if you're doing a good job. You're not going to save a lot on weight here, either.

Besides the 'glass lids and bumpers, there's no much farther you can go before you get into race only territory. A look at Paul's car shows you how far you can go on a dedicated racing car (1300-ish lbs), but on a road car, I'd say 200lbs is about the upper limit before you're removing things you'll regret later, or you spend so much for the extra weight that it's just not worthwhile. By modern standards, anything under 2000lbs is very light. Even the US Elise is 1900lbs. Most current "sports cars" are way north of 2500lbs, and plenty are over 3000.

Grant I just won the hawker PC680 Battery. When it shows up I'l give a full report. @ 12lbs it's gotta be cool. Hope the hell it starts the car
Rear glass is more than 3 lbs. Pretty sure....
my 155 lb helps make my car the fastest Teener on the Gulf Coast. Well Me and KarlP from the bird board. we never met yet.

heres our shop car 1760 lbs, lexan windows excp. for the windsheild,,so far..striped to bare bones and fiberglass, with alot of bracing including bracing the tranny mount body points.All outer and interior coatings striped.no dash board but the cluster part.

as you can see this fuel cell i custom built 9 gal. the no motors at the headlights save 8 lbs or more, use 911 old shocks and a release cable,

the windows are 1/4 inch thick so you dont need window winders, you simply push the up and down, there tight

aNOTHER

battery

cluster

has a 930 front susp. qand a stock brake caliper with a 1' spacer between the caliper so you can run a drilled and vented 911 rotar, and still have a park brake

sorry about the spelling and lost words, its late here (i dont know where that time clock gets off saying its like 9:00 when its like 12 or so on the page) but..wife is hollering....late

You also have to take into account the weight of the related hardware when deleting hoods. As it was stated above, when you go to a f/g front hood you can't use the stock springs. So add that weight into your savings. You can use the stock hinges, but why not use aluminum hood pins and save the weight of the hinges. And if you use pins you can pull the latch and cable pull out.

On the engine lid, remove all those damn torsion springs and latch and save some more.

It comes down to how much work you want to do to saves the weigh. And how practical it is for you to drive. You could save 10 pounds with a lightened flywheel but driving it on the street would be a PITA.

I could take another 50 pounds out of my car. But making a f/g fan housing and engine sheet metal is a hell of a lot of work for three pounds of savings. I could make molds of the body and make c/f body panels and save 30 pounds. If my tires would ever wear out, changing to slicks will save me 5 pounds a tire. I have a 10 gallon cell which I never fill up with 10 gallons. I could get a 5 gallon cell and save 4 pounds. I could get aluminum body shocks and save 20 pounds. Etc, etc, etc.

It's all about money x effort/time = lightweight

Paul