Hey all, I'm still debating Whether to do a type-4 turbo or a Subaru N/A swap.

I've put together an updated spreadsheet of price estimates. I've pulled most of these prices from AA pistons, and used ebay for used parts prices. This estimate tries to use as many used parts as possible.

Estimates also assume I do all the fabrication, welding, machining myself.

This estimate also includes the materials for flat Corvair style flat-fan. I've always like the look of the Corvair engine, especially the Corvair turbo.

If you guys want to take a look, let me know if you think these prices are reasonable.

I keep mulling turbo T4 vs. Subaru. On one hand, I've always had a thing for early turbo cars, like the Corvair, BMW 2002, etc, and thought that would be so cool to build something like that in a similar year (I've got a 76 Porsche 912). But, wow, that's an expensive engine to build, and parts sure seem pretty hard to come by.

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http://www.originalcustoms.com/engines.php

Talk to McMark, he's build a few T4 engines, including a nice 1.7L turbo. Last time i checked his engines were cheaper than your estimate for a T4.

Your Subaru cooling system seems complicated and costly. I'm all in for only $250.

Also you don't want a JDM engine. Plenty of USDM to choose from.

Subaru i think is way more user friendly


So im sure you'd drive alot more
And fiddle alot less with the subaru then
The boosted type 4


And if your doing the labor subaru will be less
Prohibitively expensive.

....

I only like the booster type 4 so you can skip
The radiator.... (Makes it more a porsche for me)

I think I've over-estimated the cost estimate for the Subaru cooling a bit, wanted to be on the safe side. I've actually got a 76 912, so cooling is more complicated than a 914. I'm going to go with dual smaller radiators, because I don't want a radiator in the trunk. I'm fitting one long skinny one in the chin, and a wider one in the right fender well. Total area comes to about 250 square inches, which seems about right for 200 hp N/A engine.

With everything except the cooling system, the Subaru is WAY, WAY, WAY more practical, and I think You're totally right in that I'd be doing a lot more driving than fiddling.

Throttle bodies for $200? Pistons and heads "new" for $500? That's 4 pistons and 2 complete heads ready to go? What is the ignition plan?

Your going to find putting a radiator not in the trunk to be very difficult. If your going for the front bumper I would look into the jeep cherokee radiator. It'll still need considerable modifications but thats the closest radiator i've found to fit into the front bumper. There might even be enough room to fit it in the engine bay if you scoot the engine back far enough.

AA Pistons has biral cylinders and forged pistons for $800.

Throtle bodies are used Mustang ones.

AA has new heads for $500.

Ignition / fuel management is Speeduino, using waste spark for $300, including a used Ford coil pack.

I've picked up a Renault Alpine radiator, it pretty much fits under the bumper, I'll need to shave an inch or so off the bottom, and weld on new bungs. I'll have to cut a notch out of the tub to clear the fans.

In the fender, I can fit a suzuki motorcycle radiator, so total area should be enough.

This way, I still get full trunk up front, with no radiator in it.

Coolant lines are still a huge pain, with making the hard lines to go under the rocker panels.

Are those the castings only? No hardware? At 500 I'd be very suspect (or be planning on required machine work to make them good.)

Good heads are usually over a grand each.

Zach

BTW, do the subaru swap. Use a domestic motor so parts will be readily available. I'd go with a Suby ez30 over any of the 2.5 engines if you are going to stay NA.

Zach

I have a renegade completed Subaru swap. 2.0 EJ 20 Turbo with the intercooler. It is positively one of the most amazing cars I have owned. If the transmission was Subie, I would out accelerate my 2014 Cayman S. I just don't drive it hard enough to blow up the 901. Could this be re-produced by a garage mechanic. Absolutely. You would save a lot of money doing it yourself.

Here is why Subie. It starts immediately with the computer controlled engine management. If it breaks, I can go to Autozone. If I blow up the motor, replacements are everywhere. Performance is only limited by budget and braking ability.

To that end, on the way home from the WCR, I was in the canyon following a 2018 GT3 RS. Yes I was riding his bumper through the twisties and he thought he would teach that little 914 a lesson. He tried to accelerate away but really either didn't know how to drive it, or could not use the 650 HP he had in the corners. Power to weight wise, he only pulled on me SLIGHTLY and he eventually had to slow down. At the end of it, he gave me a BIG thumb up and shook his head. I laughed out loud as I drove away with him looking astonished. My temp gauge never moved and 15 pounds of boost just kept pulling like a sport bike. (Legal disclaimer: No laws were broken during the making of this story. Any similarity between real life events and people involved may be purely fictional)

Now, I have never owned a turbo air cooled vehicle, and have seen some pretty trick stuff. So I am not knocking them. I just think turbocharging and water cooling (and inter cooling) go hand and hand. In Cali, its basically a desert and an air cooled turbo motor would cook in the sometimes 110 degree heat.

My .02 cents. The build of my car is contained in user Carreraguy's build thread. You can see a lot of what was done, and ever you should ask, I would happily share the "how they did this" on the car for you.

Rob

Run your lines in the recesses under the center tunnel. Much easier than trying to figure lines through the rockers.

It makes much more sense than any other method I've seen unless your LOOKING for doing fabrication.

Thanks, that be great to go EZ30, but I've got a 76 912, not a 914, so an EZ won't really fit, the oil pan sits way too low. And the Suby trans won't fit, because the shift rods are in totally the wrong location, and I'd have to have the shift linkage going above the floor.

Here's a EZ30 in a 911, and sits way too low for comfort. But, EJ251 with a hot cam makes more than enough power to make me happy, 200 hp sure beats the factory 85 hp, and a 2300 lbs car, yeah, that's all right with me

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Thanks, I was planning on running the lines along the outside of the pan (got a 912). I think outside is better because it dissipates a fair bit of heat, in addition to the radiator. I was going to run the heater lines through the heater ducts though.

Thanks man. yeah, for parts availability, reliability, there's just no question the Suby wins hands down. There's basically a handful of places in the world that have T4 parts, and any auto zone has Subaru parts.

Literally, the only challenge with the Subaru is the damned cooling system. But it's been solved before. I've already picked up a radiator that'll fit between the bumper and the tub, and just going to notch the tub and vent the exhaust straight down. Using a Renault Alpine radiator, with a core size of 27.75 x 8.58 inches. Should be good enough for 200 hp.

Yeh in a 912

You definitely dont want a radiator

And if you must

Tea tray spolier in the rear not chin radiators

I would do a NA stroker 914 2.0 base T4 ,2270cc 160hp, or if budget permits nickies 2.6-2.7 liter 180hp.

Element tuning has a dry sump pan coming for the EZ motors which will take care of the clearance issues

..hmmm, I have a 2056 2.0L/4 with 96mm DISHED pistons, which is rare I guess - since I can not locate them anywhere else. Not sure what the compression is. I've wondered though, if this engine would be a good start to a turbo'd 914. Thoughts?

This is just dumb. Sure a genius like McMark can make a turbo. And of course the others who "can't turbo" a 914.

THINK!

Duh, the TIV was never made for turbo. Of course the Subie was, it came with them. And of course people can do it. But..... Butt...

This is so stupid. Sure, add extra flints to the flintsones.

What's dumb is someone who's been around this forum as long as you, not realizing that calling people's ideas DUMB and using words like STUPID - are the kinds of things that lead to threads getting shut down eventually. Just 'cause you disagree.

i do not know where mcmarks turbo stands today but a year or so ago, that thing was humming along nicely, and 150% appealing : )

Right. Shut me down. I don't mean to call anyone's dreams dumb. Go for it. I'm just suggesting that maybe we learn from history. This thread won't be shut down because of me questioning whether a subie designed for turbo or tiv turbo makes more sense.

I wonder if Britain Smith ever finished his Type 4 turbo 912...

I think he has moved on. And for good reason.

The EZ is still going to be a hugely tough fit because it's got a integrated oil pan that sits pretty low. I kinda like the EJ251 because it's simpler, and I just like the idea of keeping a 912 as a four cylinder. It'll definitely be 'tweaked', will be running ITBs, and turns out that the Delta 2000 cam is virtually identical to the Porsche 356 Super 90. So, I'm thinking that'll give it an exhaust note that'll sound just like the original 912. I'm keeping the 912 badges on the car, so think it'll be fun having everyone else thing it's just a 4-cylinder 912. But EJ251 engines set up like this dyno at around 210 hp.

I'm also making a custom low-profile oil pan that integrates the motor mounts, so it'll use the factory cross-member. Here's a prototype of the design where I was analyzing the displacement in Autocad, and already picked up the aluminum billets I'll be making it out of.



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