Issue: There's no power going to the coil/fuel pump when I turn the key. (you can skip the history and jump down to the ALL CAPS and to see more about the issue)

History: 16 years ago, this was a running 1.7 fuel injected '73 in Bakersfield, CA. I bought it wrecked in the front end, (hood crunched a little, passenger fender dented) A friend straightened the trunk, cut off and welded a replacement fender on and we put on a replacement hood. I had it painted and new tires on it. It was my daily driver for a couple of years.

14 years ago, I got a new daily driver and this sat for a few months. Unbeknownst to me, a critter made it's home around one of the cylinders with mud and leaves. I went to drive it and the cylinder overheated and seized the engine. I bought new cylinders and took it to a friend to replace. Upon removing the engine he discovered that my block was cracked. I found a rebuilt 1.7 down in Los Angeles and bought it to replace the old engine. My mechanic friend was going to work on it in his spare time for me.

I had always had trouble with the fuel injection, so I saw this as an opportunity to remove it and replace it with carbs. So he installed the carbs and after he got the engine back in the car, he discovered his dog had eaten the wiring harness (From the relay plate to the alternator/starter) At that point, life happened... kids grew up, I worked a lot and the car sat in that condition in one of the bays in his shop for 10 years.

Three years ago, my sons are now teenagers, and I decided I wanted to finish it up and get it out of my friends way. He had kind grown resentful of it being there. I brought it home and put it on jack stands in my garage. I ordered a new wiring harness and tried to finish the car to get it started for my kids to drive. I discovered that through life I had developed a strong case of claustrophobia and it's difficult to get under the car for me. So it has sat for another three years.

So I have a new friend who rebuilds VW Bugs who is now helping me.We've gotten all the electrical hooked back up. Removed the gas tank and flushed it out. replaced all the fuel lines, and filters. And got a new battery. Which brings me to the present...

ISSUE: WHEN WE TURN THE KEY, THERE'S NO POWER TO THE COIL OR FUEL PUMP.

Since we replaced the fuel injection with carburetors, we no longer have the ECU in the car. (in fact, I no longer have the ECU or any of the fuel injection parts anymore, they are long gone at my other friends garage) Not sure if that was a mistake, I thought I didn't need it anymore since the FI was gone.

My VW friend is not familiar enough with 914 electrical to find the issue. Could I have a bad relay? I see that there is a port for the white wires from the ECU to connect to the relay panel. Is there a part I need there in place of the ECU wiring? Is this a common issue with a carb replacement? Other electrical things work, (headlights, and whatnot) and if I continue to turn the key, the starter starts to crank, but no power to the coil/fuel pump.

Any help would be appreciated. Sorry for the long post.

Wow some history right there,by all means check the pump fuse first ,then the FI and power supply relays,you can swap these for known good ones,the headlight motor ones are easy to get to.
If no luck try powering the pump direct and see if it fires up,it is not uncommon for them to stick up when not used for a while,if you get it working its a good time to check the condition of your rubber fuel lines as they don't last that long...safer too, good luck.

Since you don't have the injection system on it anymore, you will have to find a source of switched power. You cannot use the fuel injection pump. Way too much pressure.

Good to know, thank you.

I've pulled and tested five different relays (two from the headlight motors) and I have three that work. I've put two of the working relays on the power supply position and the fuel pump position on the relay board. Previously, the relay on the power supply position was one of the non-functional ones. But after turning the key, still no joy.

Then I pulled the hot from the pump and touched it to the hot on the battery using a test light. The light lit up with continuity but the pump didn't run. Maybe a bad pump. Which, if I have to now get a low pressure pump for the carbs, means I need a new pump anyway.

Another thing: looking at the relay board diagram I noticed that a few of the relay posts run through the connectors to the ECU. Post 86 on the fuel pump relay runs to post III on the ECU connector. And post 85 on the fuel pump relay and post 87 on the power supply relay run to post I on the ECU connector. Is it gonna give me a problem that there is no longer anything plugged into the ECU connector?

I just saw that this was not referring to the fuel pump. What do you mean a source of switched power?

Just looked at ordering a low pressure fuel pump and the pictures look like the unit in my car (attached pic). I noticed the unit in my car looked newer than everything else. I'm thinking my mechanic friend had already put a low pressure fuel pump in there. But it's still not coming on.

Is there a way to unstick the fuel pump or does it need to be replaced?

Also, he had the fuel pump hot cable connected to the hot side of the ignition coil. That's not how I see it in the diagram but is that an alternative way of wiring it?


Click to view attachment

If you didn't ground pin III on the FI ECU connector like shown, the fuel pump relay will not pull in. This doesn't power the coil though.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...41299&st=40

If you are unsure if your fuel pump is a low pressure one...replace it. If you try to start the car with a high pressure pump, the fuel will blow right past the closed needles and seats in the carbs, the carbs will fill the engine with fuel, and there will be a strong fire possibility.

Ok you have a Facet pump,I think you have a power supply issue as these pumps generally don't fail,has it got fuel on the inlet side for starters ?,have you tried powering it direct,are you powering it off the coil ? if so not really a good solution as you aren't protected by a fuse,others reasons too.
Wire the pump as per 914 info section on here ...its the best solution.
Good luck.

http://www.914world.com/specs/SirAndyCarbFuelPumpRelay.php

That link to SirAndy's instructions was very helpful. I saved it to my computer for future reference as well. I'm going to wire my fuel pump up according to that diagram. I can see now that my mechanic friend knew that the original wiring would not power the pump and he cut off the fuel pump connector and manually rewired the fuel pump to a ground post and directly to the coil. I see now why that is bad.

I'm also starting to realize that maybe my fuel pump is bad. I tried a second time to connect the positive lead of the fuel pump directly to the positive battery post. I don't hear it pumping, I don't see any movement in the fuel in the clear fuel filter ahead of the pump, and I see nothing come out of the jets in the carb as I pump the throttle cable. I'm thinking my fuel pump is not working. If it's power up, should I hear it pumping? I remember hearing the pump come on all the time before, but that was the old FI pump.

I used the CB rotary pump below on my carbed 2056 and it worked much better than the facet pumps (a lot quieter too):
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3193.htm

If you don't hear it pumping when you direct wire it to the battery, it is probably bad. You will definitely hear it. Make sure you have the ground wire going to a good source. I used SirAndys instructions to also do my mine when I just recently converted to carbs. I ran the ground like shown but had to find another power source in the board that worked with the key switch. Mine just stopped working. I forgot which one I used but it was in the same plug. Just add a 15amp fuse inline and you should be good to go once you change out your pump.

I see that this unit comes with a filter already attached (the description says that removal of the attached filter voids the warranty) I'm assuming this whole unit would replace Both the pump and filter I already have right?

I just found this which I saved on my computer. Life saver that was given on a post when I was having trouble. Your fuel pump power is pin 13. Mine didn't work so I connected to pin 5 (I think) which worked with the key on and off. Works like a charm ever since.

More likely than not, that facet pump pressure is unregulated and the pressure is too high for your carbs. There was a long thread about fuel pump power recently. Pulling pump power off of the coil is a bad idea. You will blow other fuses. Is the bullet fuse in place on the relay board?

Correct on the pump/filter. Screw type clamps are not used. A hassle to change the filter. Replace the short hose piece and get some shouldered clamps for the hoses.

That is the same one I put one. Yes, the filter is attached and all one unit.

Is the pump connected to the original wires?

Not at this time. The black wire is spliced to a wire going to a ground point on the car. The red wire is spliced to a wire running up to the coil. I took that wire from the coil and connected it to the hot on the battery using a test light. The test light came on but the pump didn’t start.

I have found the original wires, the connector has been cut off and is gone. Once I get a fuel pump that works, I’ll attach it to the original wires and patch the relay board as shown in SirAndys diagram.

Your test light won't pass enough current to run the fuel pump.
Replace your test light with an inline fuse and test your pump again.

In the test you describe the light bulb limits the current flow to the pump and the pump won't run but the light will work.
An inline fuse will protect your wiring in case the pump has a dead short.

Jim

That's very good to know, I didn't know that. I'll get the proper wiring and test it again.

This forum has been so helpful and I appreciate all the help I've been getting and how quickly everyone responds.

The plug end of the stock pump harness will have dif connectors. Make up a pig tail that works with the replacement pump. The relay board trick and start tracking circuits. Remove the coil from equation.

Is the facet mounted to the bottom of the engine shelve? Is that a J tube hole above it?

Yes it's mounted to the bottom underside of the "hell hole"

I'm not sure what the J tube is. Is it the tube to drain the water from the engine lid? I think that might be it. My drainage tubes all disintegrated over time and are no longer there.

Is the circled one you are referring too?
that is the hole where the fuel pump wire coming from and should have a rubber gromet.


Click to view attachment

I assumed that was the hole you were referring to. I'm not home right now so I can't take a look at it to confirm. By my memory I assumed it was the drainage hole, but it probably is the access hole for the Fuel pump wiring.

The connector and the rubber grommet are no longer on the wiring. The wiring is currently still up in the engine bay cut bare. I will eventually run them back down the access hole and crimp them to the red and black wires coming off the fuel pump, so that it's all running through the original wiring loom.

Click to view attachment

Ok. Been busy with work but was able to work on the car recently. I got a regular alligator clip test cable and tested the red wire from the fuel pump to the hot on the battery and low and behold, I heard the fuel pump kick on.

So I went ahead and rewired the pump back into the original wiring harness (Black/red to red and brown to black).

I also created the jumper wire from pin one to ground as Andy's tutorial says. I turned the key and...

NOTHING. Fuel pump does not turn on. Did I miss something?

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

So I decided to test the connection by pushing a probe into the black/red side of the crimp connector going to the red fuel pump wire. And I touched the hot on the battery and current ran through the connection and the fuel pump came on. So I know the connection is good.

However, something else is troubling me. I let the fuel pump run for 20-30 seconds but no fuel showed up in the upper fuel filter between the carbs. I can see fuel in the lower filter but it's not full. Should it be full? I've got about 2-3 gallons of fuel in the tank and I can see fuel in the tank when I shine a light in it.

Any idea why fuel isn't making it to the upper fuel filter?

Click to view attachment

The 2 fuses on the relay board are filthy. Clean the board. Clean the fuse tangs. Clean or replace the fuses. Check fuses for continuity.

Are there any fuses or relays under the dash that I need to check? I've checked continuity on the fuses on the relay board and they are good. But I will clean it all to be safe.

No none to worry about in that area,have you checked the voltage to the pump when its powered....it may not be a full 12volts,I don't know if the Facets are voltage dependant but some others are,some Bosch pumps don't preform well with low voltage for example.
If you remove the inlet to your filter you should have fuel flow ,if not you may have a blocked tank suction filter.
Try not to use screw hose clips (as mentioned) and try to avoid those open crimp joiners,use Duraseals or solder and heatshrink .
Good luck.

Did you check the fuel pump relay? Your relay board looks very dirty. You can remove the plastic cap from the relay and measure/test to make sure the relay works as intended.

As always, follow the current. From the forward connector through the fuse, through the relay, to the pump.

You can test the relays involved with providing the power to the fuel pump.

Check out the relay board layout below. Notice the POWER SUPPLY relay in the middle of the board. This relay provides power to the ECU (not installed) and the relay to power the fuel pump. Turning the key to ON will power the Power Supply relay. You can check this switched voltage at the ECU connector.

See the wire leaving the Power Supply relay pin 87. This is switched power. It goes to Fuel Pump Relay pin 85 and ECU pin I.

To test the Power Supply relay, first remove the connector to the engine. This will keep the coil/points/Pertronix from overheating as you debug the fuel pump issue. Also we need access to pin 12.

After the connector to the engine is removed, turn the ignition key to ON. This will cause the Power Supply Relay to turn on and provide 12V to pin I of the ECU plug. With your voltmeter, measure pin I to chassis. You should see 12V. If you do, then the Power Supply relay is good.

Once the Power Supply relay is tested good, then check the output of the Fuel Pump relay. Power to the fuel pump comes from the 25A fuse on the relay board. Check the voltage on both sides of the fuse. Check the fuse holder, not the fuse for power. You should see 12V on both sides.

Once the 25A fuse is tested ok, with ignition key still on, notice the voltage to the fuel pump comes from Fuel Pump relay pin 87. Follow that wire upwards to the 14-pin connector to the cabin and fuel pump. You cannot measure the voltage there as the connector is still on. However, follow the wire from Fuel Pump relay pin 87 DOWN the page then over to the right to the connector to the engine. You've already removed this connector. Thus the fuel pump voltage from the relay can be measured on pin 12.

Let us know what you find.

Make sure the fuel hose isn't kinked, it's easy to do

In your original post you said you had no power to either the coil or fuel pump. If fuse #9 under the dash is not good and passing power to pin #8 of the 14 pin connector at the relay board, neither the coil will have power nor the fuel pump. Pin #8 feeds power to the POWER relay on the relay board witch in turns passes power to the fuel pump relay. Check that there is power at Pin #8 with the key switch on.
Tom
EDIT: I was looking at my prints and I was wrong. The power to pin 8 of the 14 pin connector does come from fuse #9, but it is from the un-fused side ( or hot side). One would still need to confirm that when the key is turned on, there is power at pin #8 of the 14 pin connector for the relay board and at the power relay thru the relay board traces and on to the fuel pump relay.
Tom

OK. I retested all the relays I have on the headlight motors and I have four working relays. I've tried all four relays on both the power and fuel pump relay posts with no joy. I was not even getting power to pin #1 on the ECU connector.

I also temporarily hard wired pin 30 to pin 87 (on the power relay post on the relay board) and I did get continuity to pin#1 on the ECU connector. So the relay board is good.So I checked fuse #9

There is no power on either side of fuse #9 under the dash. Key on or off makes no difference.

As I understand it, power from fuse #9 is what triggers the power relay to pass power from pin 30 to pin 87

So my relays are working, but the signal for them to pass power on is not being triggered.

In fact, I connected everything up, but removed the power relay. I connected the battery, turned on the key, and hardwired pin 30 to pin 87 on the power relay post, and the fuel pump kicked on. So now I know it all works except power to fuse #9 under the dash.

So what could be stopping power to fuse #9 under the dash?

When we first put the fuel tank back in the car the hoses were kinked and we didn't know it. We set the fuel tank in place and poured in about a gallon of gas, but we didn't see any gas flowing into the fuel filter back by the engine. So using a small wooden dowel, we were able to manipulate the hoses under the tank. We slid and pushed the fuel lines around until one of them felt like it went free and we heard a girggling sound. I went to the back and saw fuel in the filter. We haven't touched the lines since and I'm assuming it still flows.

Power to fuse 9 comes from the ignition switch. From the schematics, it looks like 12V to the ignition coil and relays on the relay board do not use fuse 9.



Fuse 9, the ignition coil, and the relays on the relay board are powered through the ignition switch. The only items between Fuse 9, the ignition coil, and relays on the relay board are the ignition switch and the wires to the ignition switch from the battery.

If the wires are ok and you measure 12V at the ignition switch, it would seem your ignition switch has taken a dump.

Do other items such as brake lights, turnsignals work with the ignition key on?

With the key OFF, there is no power to the fuses for the low beams and high beams. When I turn the key ON, I get power to the low beam and hight beam fuses.

Not very many lights actually come on, but I think that's probably old bulbs.

The high/low beams do not go through the ignition switch and will turn on/off independently of the ignition switch. Check for brake lights and L and R turnsignals with key ON. Don't do 4-way flashers as they bypass the ignition switch.

OK, so here's my update for today.

I can't get brake lights or signal lights to come on with the key on or off.

However, I did notice that I get hot on both sides of fuse #8 when the key is ON but nothing when the key is OFF. So the ignition switch is doing SOMETHING. But I never get hot to fuse #9 no matter what, key on or off.

Also, side question. I'm trying to understand the wiring diagrams better but I have a question. Most wires show where they are coming and going. But some wires seem to just end at a number and I don't know what that number means. I included a pic of a blow up of the wiring diagram and highlighted a few of the numbers that I'm talking about. What do those numbers mean and where are those wires going?Click to view attachment

Those numbers go to somewhere else on the schematic. There will be a mating number somewhere else.

Fuse 8 is powered by pin X on the ignition switch (D). Fuse 9 and relay board/ignition coil are powered by pin 15 on the ignition switch.

Notice pin 50 on the ignition switch which goes to the starter.

Therefore the starter, ignition coil (fuse 9), and fuse 8 are all controlled separately by the ignition switch.

Pin P (going to electrical column 30) on the ignition switch powers the Euro function for the turnsignals when the vehicle is off.

The issue is still pointing at the ignition switch. The only test left is to find the wires coming from ignition switch in the steering column and find and measure the voltage on the wire from pin 15 to isolate the ignition switch.

Pastormacman,
It looks like you are using the electrical wiring diagrams from the Haynes manual. They are somewhat harder to read/use that some color larger ones.
Here are the ones I used when I had mine. Depending on your year of 914, there may be some changes. With a little work, you can figure these out and make corrections on the larger prints. I made a copy from my computer and put it on a disc and took that to Staples and had 11" x 17" color copies made. So much easier to follow the lines. The number you see correspond to the numbers at the bottom of the print. Hope these come thru OK. I may have to use two posts to get them all posted.
Tom

More

Thank you very much. I think that is going to be very helpful.

Thanks for the info. I'll get to checking the wiring in the steering column.

THANK YOU!

I want to thank everyone who helped me with this issue. My new ignition switch came in and I installed it. I turned the key and my dashboard lit up and the fuel pump kicked on. I'm now getting power to fuse #9.

Now I just need to get my car to start. But my electrical is all working now thanks to all of your help.