See the description of the Creamsicle being shown at Amelia Island.

Current car description:

https://werksreunion.com/carsDetails/197491420LECanAm-1

The car in question:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;hl=Creamsicle

For entertainment:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...msicle&st=0

When I read "An authentic stock survivor, this LE has never been restored, only maintained to continue to be driven with its 1974 Duval tag" I thought about contacting Tommy to ask what's up. Pretty sure he knows it is not a survivor and doesn't have its original engine.

My father always said to beware of slick dressers with fancy shoes.

Maybe he's going off the number of cars in the registry as the number of survivors?

BTW...his car has (or had) a salvage title as well

Jamie did a nice job fixing up that car but I remember it even had a salvage title at one time. The current owners identity is tied to the car so saying anything negative results in a tantrum. After the concours debacle, he gathered up his toys and went home.

For sale thread - http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...181320&st=0

Fixing front end damage in a “never restored car”.

Weird motivation to mislead... Bad karma

same kinda thing happened to a viper green 76 I sold..it was listed for sale a few years later as a 2wner car spent its life in CA,Tex..totally forgot he bought it from me from WA.4yrs

How many Bumblebees and Creamsicles were originally made?

I believe 500 each .

I remember that repair! Jeff Hines (sixnotfour) did an amazing weld job in @914Werke driveway...at night! He even got the screw holes for the wart to line up.

Pretty sure you’re right since he mentions reading Jamie’s ‘restoration thread’ in the for sale thread that mepstien linked.

Yup good times. If the rain ever stops Id like to do another BBQ/Drive.
Its been some time since we gathered the PNW crew together to drink beer & tell lies.
Billy's "Turn out" showed there are plenty of nice cars hiding in garages, not just
Creamsicles

wow that is a new way of piecing a 914 fender!!!!

Jeff Bowlsby our resident authority who wrote the book on the limited edition should "chime in"

I have spent a lot of time the past year wrenching on this car with Tommy. I can tell you it has never been restored by any reasonable definition of the word restored. It was repaired well and painted. I wouldn’t have described it as a survivor but whats the definition of survivor? I would call my car a survivor but it’s been resprayed to freshen up the paint so some would disagree. Tommy is a great guy and described his car the way the thought fit. Why drag out a negative post when asking about production numbers. Hopefully that post goes away forever.

What is your definition of restored? I think it may differ considerably from many of us on here.

My definition of restored would be a car disassembled and put back together like new. Tommy’s car was painted and nicely sorted.

If they are still alive then they are survivors.

car is nice but the write-up can easily be misunderstood.

“An authentic stock survivor, this LE has never been restored, only maintained to continue to be driven with its 1974 Duval tag.”

perhaps we can spend time parsing the word “maintained”

Tommy is a good guy. We can mince words but in the end it's a survivor. I have a 72 that I bought out of the desert that has no rust. It has a cheap repaint from the 80s.
If I have it sanded and repainted is it a survivor? I'd say yes.
But what if I did some bodywork like repair a ding? I'd still say yes.

So what if I replaced some hell hole metal?

Which brings me to another car I have with all original doc that needs a floor and good knows what else.

I'd bet the number of LEs with ALL original paint and unmolested is probably closer to a dozen of each if that.

A salvage title car is not a survivor by any means

And there you have it.

I guess Tommy can call it whatever he wants. But it’s a salvage title car with a new fender, different motor and a repaint. If that’s his definition of “survivor” then fine. But if he used that copy trying to sell the car it would be just about fraud.

The stupid thing is if he called it what it is - a restored LE that he and most of us would be proud to drive we would not have this issue. But when you claim something is what it clearly is not it will rub people the wrong way.

Zach

To me a survivor car is a car that hasnt been welded on since it left the factory and has factory paint. It may have some surface rust (rust holes not ok) and worn paint but the sheet metal should be unmolested. It's got the original engine and gearbox but they can be serviced/rebuilt since they are made to come apart (the chassis/body isnt) Everything on the car is in working condition but may of course show signs of use. Pristine low milage cars arent surviviors, they havnt been used enough to deserve to be called that.

Then again, this is just my interpretation, I'd be interested to hear others take on it.

yup,an afternoon , with 6 guys messing with it and an afternoon.. Time was ticking, I ran home got my blasted fender for my 914 cut/splice, all factory spot welds intact...no butt weld on fender lip... Done Jamie towed it home...skiin gaft

salvage title ..yes,, that section is the total extent of the cars damage....

Exterior repaint, left rocker, right fender (back in 77), battery tray, Bursch exhaust, stainless heat exchangers, OEM euro pistons, Pertronix & a very clean title. I consider mine to be very well maintained, not restored.

I would agree with most of this... but low mileage, pristine condition original cars are also survivors.

Apologies to Johnny B, my mistake...

Are you talking about Tommy's salvage car, Johny B's is a different car and a way different person.

@Blue6

He is the ORIGINAL OWNER of that 914!

I learned a new word this morning while reading the paper: Pettyfogging.

Dictionary definition of Survivor: a person who survives, especially a person remaining alive after an event in which others have died.

Substitute 'person' for 'car', and there you have it.

So this one did die but was brought back from the dead hence the salvage title.
So does it make it a zombie?

Bloomington Gold Definition:
Is over 20 years old.
Can pass a road test over 10 miles
Remains over 50% unrestored, un-refinished, or unaltered. (Fails here)
Retains finishes good enough to use as a color guide for restoration of a car just like it.

AACA judging guidelines regarding HPOF:
A vehicle may be entirely ‘original’ or it may have certain original features such as paint, chassis, upholstery, engine compartment, etc. that are essentially as delivered.
(Fails pretty much all of this)

The one common consensus from almost every classic / antique judging I can find:

"The first rule of survivor cars is their original paint job. You cannot paint a collector car and still call it a survivor anymore than you can castrate a horse and still call it a stallion. Something is fundamentally different in both cases, although the horse has better reasons to be a lot sadder about the changes in his life.

The paint job has to be the original finish, complete with orange peel and a thin layer of actual paint in many cases from the factories of the past. The car will be measured by its ability to have survived decades with nothing more than a wax job on its paint surface."


This car is not a survivor - End of story

I didn't mean to cause any issues, just trying to define what I consider a restoration. I tore my truck completely apart and did a full "resto-mod" on her. Everything got repainted inside and out. The cab & frame are the only original metal left- doors, hood, fenders, bed, tailgate, bumpers, etc... all got replaced.
My LE has original paint inside; the carpeting, backpad, steering wheel & dash are all original & have never been removed- why I don't consider her restored, just very well maintained. This is no longer fashionable since everyone likes patina nowadays. I hate patina I like my Matchbox's new and fresh out of the box

Looks very nice