Full Version: and the main star in the shop today is...
and he really loves his car!!!Click to view attachment
well that's a sad looking little 924...what are y'all going to do to it...I see some buffing going on...what color is that?
Today in my shop it's another 996 C4S. 
QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Jan 21 2020, 10:55 AM) 
One hour labor is probably more than it’s worth.
QUOTE(Steve @ Jan 21 2020, 05:23 PM)
One hour labor is probably more than it’s worth.
How do you double the value of a 924?
Fill the gas tank.
My first Porsche was a Petrol Blue Metallic 1979 924. I was the second owner. I had it when I met Betty. She was driving her 914.
We still have her 914. The 924 was sold 2 years after we got married.
We still have her 914. The 924 was sold 2 years after we got married.
About 1980, I’d totaled my BMW 2002 and was looking for a new car. Since I’d previously had a new ‘73 914 I felt I owed a look to the new 924. The salesman gave me the keys and said, “have it back in an hour”. I brought it back in 30 minutes. Not nearly as good as the BMW and nowhere near the 914.
As I recall, the 924 had it's own NARP reputation back in the day... "more Audi than Porsche". Through factory research and development it evolved into the 944. However, they brought the 924 back in 86 with the 924S, essentially a narrow fenders 944 in disguise & a pretty good car- best of the 924s' that came to the US.
QUOTE(Johny Blackstain @ Jan 22 2020, 12:12 PM)
As I recall, the 924 had it's own NARP reputation back in the day... "more Audi than Porsche". Through factory research and development, it evolved into the 944. However they brought the 924 back in 86 with the 924S which essentially was a narrow fenders 944 in disguise & a pretty good car- best of the 924s' that came to the US.
If you look at the history of the 924, it was never designed as a Porsche. Audi asked Porsche to design a sportscar for them. When Audi decided not to build it, Porsche then took it and made the 924. Because it was designed for Audi originally, it used lots of VW/Audi parts. The front suspension was from the super beetle, the rear suspension was from the super beetle, the engine was from the Audi fox, the transmission was from the Audi fox, and lots of the interior bits were from the VW parts bin as well. That's why the interior door handles and the turn signal and wiper switches fit both a 914 and a 924. The guts of the steering column all use Beetle parts. The ignition lock from a 924 will fit in a 914, but the key is different.
There are way more VW/Audi parts in a 924 than VW/Audi parts in a 914. But Porsche put a hood badge on the 924, so it doesn't get labeled a NARP.
The 944 was Porsche improving the original 924. The put flares on it, changed out the engine for a Porsche designed 2.5 water cooled 4 cylinder, and improved the brakes. Later models got the Audi sourced gauge cluster replaced with a Porsche designed one. The 924s was created to make a lower cost car, but it was just the older 944 model without the flares.
Vehicle manufacturers are cheap. They will reuse and repurpose parts and designs to cut costs on new cars any way they can. The 924 is a perfect example of parts bin engineering.
QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Jan 22 2020, 01:23 PM)
There are way more VW/Audi parts in a 924 than VW/Audi parts in a 914. But Porsche put a hood badge on the 924, so it doesn't get labeled a NARP.
Exactly
I knew it had the Fox engine but I thought the Fox had a front tranny, not a rear transaxle?
QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Jan 22 2020, 11:23 AM)
There are way more VW/Audi parts in a 924 than VW/Audi parts in a 914. But Porsche put a hood badge on the 924, so it doesn't get labeled a NARP.
One of the most fascinating things about the "50 Years Porsche 914" book to me was how apparent it is that Porsche and VW were just figuring out their partnership on the 914 as they went along. The 914 development team voted on, and passed an official decision to hood badge the 914 but by that time, cars in Europe had already started being sold as VW-Porsche so the hood badges never happened.
Another interesting part is that Porsche was busy designing improvements to the 914 when VW decided to pull the plug on their end. That left Porsche scrambling to fill that market niche which, of course, was filled temporarily with the 912E but the 924 design came up for grabs at the perfect time for Porsche to slap a badge on as the successor to the 914. Of course that's all well known but it was interesting to learn that Porsche seemed committed to carrying the 914 forward at the time its production was suddenly halted.
so do you happen to know what improvements they were planning?
There are way more VW/Audi parts in a 924 than VW/Audi parts in a 914. But Porsche put a hood badge on the 924, so it doesn't get labeled a NARP.
One of the most fascinating things about the "50 Years Porsche 914" book to me was how apparent it is that Porsche and VW were just figuring out their partnership on the 914 as they went along. The 914 development team voted on, and passed an official decision to hood badge the 914 but by that time, cars in Europe had already started being sold as VW-Porsche so the hood badges never happened.
Another interesting part is that Porsche was busy designing improvements to the 914 when VW decided to pull the plug on their end. That left Porsche scrambling to fill that market niche which, of course, was filled temporarily with the 912E but the 924 design came up for grabs at the perfect time for Porsche to slap a badge on as the successor to the 914. Of course that's all well known but it was interesting to learn that Porsche seemed committed to carrying the 914 forward at the time its production was suddenly halted.
QUOTE(bbrock @ Jan 22 2020, 12:11 PM)
QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Jan 22 2020, 11:23 AM)
There are way more VW/Audi parts in a 924 than VW/Audi parts in a 914. But Porsche put a hood badge on the 924, so it doesn't get labeled a NARP.
One of the most fascinating things about the "50 Years Porsche 914" book to me was how apparent it is that Porsche and VW were just figuring out their partnership on the 914 as they went along. The 914 development team voted on, and passed an official decision to hood badge the 914 but by that time, cars in Europe had already started being sold as VW-Porsche so the hood badges never happened.
Another interesting part is that Porsche was busy designing improvements to the 914 when VW decided to pull the plug on their end. That left Porsche scrambling to fill that market niche which, of course, was filled temporarily with the 912E but the 924 design came up for grabs at the perfect time for Porsche to slap a badge on as the successor to the 914. Of course that's all well known but it was interesting to learn that Porsche seemed committed to carrying the 914 forward at the time its production was suddenly halted.
I have this recurring dream that the Porsche dealer calls and found a supply of new old stock 1977 914s and I can buy one for 15000. It is modified from the 76 model in that it has more modern fuel injection, incorporated air conditioning, power windows, and speakers in the doors. It also has five lug wheels and a slightly Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentwider footprint in the rear The body work is slicker but not so bad, sort of like the mgb vs the mg r
I keep having a recurring alternate history dream that the handshake deal between VW and Porsche that created the 914 was actually formalized in a contract.
So the price of the 914 shells sent to Porsche was a lot cheaper. The sale price of the 914-6 was so much lower than the 911T that the 914-6 out sold the 911T. With the introduction of the 916 into mass production in 1973, the sales of the 911 line dropped. Eventually, VW/Audi replaced the 914 in their line with a Porsche designed, water cooled Audi. Utilizing the Audi fox motor and Beetle suspension from the VW parts bins, it was panned in the press for poor handling and being under powered.
The same level of development work that was done on the 911 to improve performance was done for the 914 platform as well, but the gains on the 914 platform were substantially greater than the 911 platform due to the mid-engine design. The 916 became the race car to beat in the GT classes, as it had the same horsepower as a 911, but it was lighter and had a mid engine. It racked up lots of wins in the late 70s and 80s, racing alongside the 917, and the 956/962 prototype cars. In 1988, Porsche took both the overall win at LeMans with the 962c taking the top 3 places, and the GT win with the 916 taking the top 4 places.
Due to lagging sales of the 911 in favor of the 914/916, Porsche discontinued the 911. The last of the 911 line rolled off the line in December of 1976. During the 1980s, engine development at Porsche created a Porsche designed 4 cylinder for the 914 and increased displacement and performance on the 916 engine, first with the 3.0L CIS engine, and then with the 3.2 Motronic engine. In the 90s, Porsche introduced the 3.6L Motronic engine. During this time, they updated the 914/916 design to use a front end similar to the now discontinued 911 and improved the chassis design to use 4 link suspension on all 4 corners. The improvement in the appearance and handling increased sales of the 914/916 dramatically.
The 914, with a Porsche designed flat four, and the 916 with the Porsche flat six continued on until 1998, when the last of the 3.6L/G50 916 models rolled off the assembly lines. They were replaced by the Boxster/Cayman as the top of the line Porsche.
The 911 became a cult following, with their proponents claiming they were great cars. Even with an upgraded engine from the 916, the 911 chassis still could not compete with the mid-engined 916.
Hey.. we can all dream.. right????
So the price of the 914 shells sent to Porsche was a lot cheaper. The sale price of the 914-6 was so much lower than the 911T that the 914-6 out sold the 911T. With the introduction of the 916 into mass production in 1973, the sales of the 911 line dropped. Eventually, VW/Audi replaced the 914 in their line with a Porsche designed, water cooled Audi. Utilizing the Audi fox motor and Beetle suspension from the VW parts bins, it was panned in the press for poor handling and being under powered.
The same level of development work that was done on the 911 to improve performance was done for the 914 platform as well, but the gains on the 914 platform were substantially greater than the 911 platform due to the mid-engine design. The 916 became the race car to beat in the GT classes, as it had the same horsepower as a 911, but it was lighter and had a mid engine. It racked up lots of wins in the late 70s and 80s, racing alongside the 917, and the 956/962 prototype cars. In 1988, Porsche took both the overall win at LeMans with the 962c taking the top 3 places, and the GT win with the 916 taking the top 4 places.
Due to lagging sales of the 911 in favor of the 914/916, Porsche discontinued the 911. The last of the 911 line rolled off the line in December of 1976. During the 1980s, engine development at Porsche created a Porsche designed 4 cylinder for the 914 and increased displacement and performance on the 916 engine, first with the 3.0L CIS engine, and then with the 3.2 Motronic engine. In the 90s, Porsche introduced the 3.6L Motronic engine. During this time, they updated the 914/916 design to use a front end similar to the now discontinued 911 and improved the chassis design to use 4 link suspension on all 4 corners. The improvement in the appearance and handling increased sales of the 914/916 dramatically.
The 914, with a Porsche designed flat four, and the 916 with the Porsche flat six continued on until 1998, when the last of the 3.6L/G50 916 models rolled off the assembly lines. They were replaced by the Boxster/Cayman as the top of the line Porsche.
The 911 became a cult following, with their proponents claiming they were great cars. Even with an upgraded engine from the 916, the 911 chassis still could not compete with the mid-engined 916.
Hey.. we can all dream.. right????
QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Jan 22 2020, 12:25 PM)
so do you happen to know what improvements they were planning?
I probably should have said "exploring" rather than planning. According to the book, at the time the plug was pulled on the 914, there was a turbocharged 4 cylinder 2 liter in testing and also plans to install a 4 cylinder in-line twin cam engine among others. Plans for a successor started as early as 1971. Details are kind of sketchy and scattered in the book but apparently a number of styling proposals were made (I think one of those was posted in another thread recently). The main requirements for the successor were:
- manufacturing costs are to be reduced
- larger interior, i.e. 2/2 seats with a better trunk
- wider range of drive unit options
In the end, it looks like they decided the 924 concept fit the bill better than further development of the 914 but it's hard to follow the chronology with the way the book is arrange but it looks like they were simultaneously working on developing the 914 through evolution while also pursuing replacement with a completely new model. Overall, I get the impression that Porsche was game to keep producing the 914 at least a while longer than VW. In short, after reading the book, I don't get any sense that the 914 was ever the redheaded stepchild so often assumed.
QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Jan 22 2020, 02:12 PM)
I keep having a recurring alternate history dream that the handshake deal between VW and Porsche that created the 914 was actually formalized in a contract.
So the price of the 914 shells sent to Porsche was a lot cheaper. The sale price of the 914-6 was so much lower than the 911T that the 914-6 out sold the 911T. With the introduction of the 916 into mass production in 1973, the sales of the 911 line dropped. Eventually, VW/Audi replaced the 914 in their line with a Porsche designed, water cooled Audi. Utilizing the Audi fox motor and Beetle suspension from the VW parts bins, it was panned in the press for poor handling and being under powered.
The same level of development work that was done on the 911 to improve performance was done for the 914 platform as well, but the gains on the 914 platform were substantially greater than the 911 platform due to the mid-engine design. The 916 became the race car to beat in the GT classes, as it had the same horsepower as a 911, but it was lighter and had a mid engine. It racked up lots of wins in the late 70s and 80s, racing alongside the 917, and the 956/962 prototype cars. In 1988, Porsche took both the overall win at LeMans with the 962c taking the top 3 places, and the GT win with the 916 taking the top 4 places.
Due to lagging sales of the 911 in favor of the 914/916, Porsche discontinued the 911. The last of the 911 line rolled off the line in December of 1976. During the 1980s, engine development at Porsche created a Porsche designed 4 cylinder for the 914 and increased displacement and performance on the 916 engine, first with the 3.0L CIS engine, and then with the 3.2 Motronic engine. In the 90s, Porsche introduced the 3.6L Motronic engine. During this time, they updated the 914/916 design to use a front end similar to the now discontinued 911 and improved the chassis design to use 4 link suspension on all 4 corners. The improvement in the appearance and handling increased sales of the 914/916 dramatically.
The 914, with a Porsche designed flat four, and the 916 with the Porsche flat six continued on until 1998, when the last of the 3.6L/G50 916 models rolled off the assembly lines. They were replaced by the Boxster/Cayman as the top of the line Porsche.
The 911 became a cult following, with their proponents claiming they were great cars. Even with an upgraded engine from the 916, the 911 chassis still could not compete with the mid-engined 916.
Hey.. we can all dream.. right????
I see what you did there....
QUOTE
The 911 became a cult following, with their proponents claiming they were great cars. Even with an upgraded engine from the 916, the 911 chassis still could not compete with the mid-engined 916.
QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Jan 22 2020, 01:23 PM)
Vehicle manufacturers are cheap. They will reuse and repurpose parts and designs to cut costs on new cars any way they can. The 924 is a perfect example of parts bin engineering.
We prefer to think of it as efficient and working to satisfy the needs of "cheap" customers that require a vehicle to be built to a competitive price point.
That was actually the beauty of the 914, 924, and even the 944 - they were more affordable because of the parts sharing. The other option is to design all new every time which is not done by any major OEM. That would be hugely expensive for both the OEM and the potential customers. All new every time means owners get hosed by lack of parts commonality down the road that drives up service prices. Great examples of evolution and re-use is the 911 itself. Lots of parts commonality over the years and a huge aftermarket supporting the model with cheaper than OEM parts. The domestic equivalent is something like a Jeep Wranger with only minor modifications across it's long life and a huge aftermarket of parts.
QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jan 23 2020, 05:49 AM)
QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Jan 22 2020, 01:23 PM)
Vehicle manufacturers are cheap. They will reuse and repurpose parts and designs to cut costs on new cars any way they can. The 924 is a perfect example of parts bin engineering.
We prefer to think of it as efficient and working to satisfy the needs of "cheap" customers that require a vehicle to be built to a competitive price point.
That was actually the beauty of the 914, 924, and even the 944 - they were more affordable because of the parts sharing. The other option is to design all new every time which is not done by any major OEM. That would be hugely expensive for both the OEM and the potential customers. All new every time means owners get hosed by lack of parts commonality down the road that drives up service prices. Great examples of evolution and re-use is the 911 itself. Lots of parts commonality over the years and a huge aftermarket supporting the model with cheaper than OEM parts. The domestic equivalent is something like a Jeep Wranger with only minor modifications across it's long life and a huge aftermarket of parts.
That is great, up to a point. The prototype Pontiac Fiero was a great sports car. The engine was a turbo v-6 from the Buick GNX, and it had a complete new design for the front suspension that made the car handle great. The production car used the "Iron Duke" 4 cylinder engine and the front suspension came from the Chevette. It was underpowered and handled terribly. The target market for it wanted an inexpensive entry level sports car. They got a crappy imitation. So it didn't last long.
The 924 was a poor seller until Porsche replaced the Audi Fox engine with a Porsche designed 2.5L 4 cylinder, flared the fenders and renamed it the 944. They also had to put a lot of engineering time into improving the handling.
"the engine was from the Audi fox"
I believe the engine block was sourced from the Audi 100 and the VW LT van. Porsche designed the heads to increase horsepower and alter the torque.
Not unlike the motor from the VW 411, with Porsche designed heads, that was used in the 914.
I believe the engine block was sourced from the Audi 100 and the VW LT van. Porsche designed the heads to increase horsepower and alter the torque.
Not unlike the motor from the VW 411, with Porsche designed heads, that was used in the 914.
I like it!! You almost never see them anymore, especally the non S version. I have one but someone put a bunch of holes in the front of mine!!!
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924 Turbo! Very Nice.
QUOTE(JamesM @ Jan 23 2020, 11:02 AM)
I like it!! You almost never see them anymore, especally the non S version. I have one but someone put a bunch of holes in the front of mine!!!
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Love the turbo, these make me weak in the knees.
hopefully it will get these guys engine ??
http://www.motorwerksracing.com/
http://www.motorwerksracing.com/
The red hot exhaust piping photo in the gallery is way cool.
Small batches of Weissach built 924 gtr were built to go out into the Renn World and bring home bacon for the Marque. One of the BFG T/A radial cars (sister to this one in #87 livery) took 1st place IMSA gto class, 24 Stunden / LeMans 1982. On this side of the pond Mr. Holbert tuned his 924 racers for D prod (¿) and did very well.
Almost a perfect 50/ 50 weight distribution, lightweight, turbocharged gtr made just under 300 bhp, and laid the foundation for the 944 to come.
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Almost a perfect 50/ 50 weight distribution, lightweight, turbocharged gtr made just under 300 bhp, and laid the foundation for the 944 to come.
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It’s amazing that vw chose to dump air cooled cars at the same time Porsche did. The scirocco replaced the 914 at the Karman factory and the 924 was going to be the low end Porsche and the 928 was going to be the high end Porsche. Then the Japanese kicked Porsche’s ass and changed everything for Porsche.
my recurrent daydream is for Porsche in the late '60s to somehow be able to finance the 914 -6 only by themselves.
this could have been via banks but the flip side would be having a banker on the board which Ferry would not have even considered
the pricings would be DM 16,000 and US$4,000
the 914-6's development could have paralled that of the 911 over time with a 2.4 motor around 1980, the 916 trans along with an uprated interior and maybe a revised front similar to the Karmann 4 headlighter
and RHD and air con . . .
just dreaming . . .
cheers
Dennis
this could have been via banks but the flip side would be having a banker on the board which Ferry would not have even considered
the pricings would be DM 16,000 and US$4,000
the 914-6's development could have paralled that of the 911 over time with a 2.4 motor around 1980, the 916 trans along with an uprated interior and maybe a revised front similar to the Karmann 4 headlighter
and RHD and air con . . .
just dreaming . . .
cheers
Dennis
It surprises me that people diss the 924. It reminds me of the snobbery I saw when I first joined the PCA back in the mid-80's. I can't believe that 914 owners would be that way after all those years of the crap we took. There's something to like about every car; if not for you, then for someone else.
QUOTE(gulf908 @ Jan 25 2020, 01:48 AM)
my recurrent daydream is for Porsche in the late '60s to somehow be able to finance the 914 -6 only by themselves.
this could have been via banks but the flip side would be having a banker on the board which Ferry would not have even considered
the pricings would be DM 16,000 and US$4,000
the 914-6's development could have paralled that of the 911 over time with a 2.4 motor around 1980, the 916 trans along with an uprated interior and maybe a revised front similar to the Karmann 4 headlighter
and RHD and air con . . .
just dreaming . . .
cheers
Dennis
@gulf908 , mate I hate the break this to you, but your steering wheel is on the wrong side of the car.
QUOTE(Pursang @ Jan 25 2020, 02:44 AM)
It surprises me that people diss the 924. It reminds me of the snobbery I saw when I first joined the PCA back in the mid-80's. I can't believe that 914 owners would be that way after all those years of the crap we took. There's something to like about every car; if not for you, then for someone else.
@Pursang - I agree, especially when many of those have not driven a properly sorted one.
Personally I am a big fan of the 944 and 968, but even if they were available today, I bet they would be twice the price of my BRZ.
QUOTE(Johny Blackstain @ Jan 22 2020, 01:26 PM)
Exactly
I knew it had the Fox engine but I thought the Fox had a front tranny, not a rear transaxle?The Fox layout was longitudinal. Porsche added a "torque tube" that connected the front engine to the rear transmission. (image from https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951...transaxle.html) This is a later 944
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That's a great illustration. Amazing what they threw together from the part bins. Thanks!
QUOTE(tomeric914 @ Jan 25 2020, 10:02 AM)
QUOTE(Johny Blackstain @ Jan 22 2020, 01:26 PM)
Exactly
I knew it had the Fox engine but I thought the Fox had a front tranny, not a rear transaxle?The Fox layout was longitudinal. Porsche added a "torque tube" that connected the front engine to the rear transmission. (image from https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951...transaxle.html) This is a later 944
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Thanks but I knew this about 924s, 944s & 968s. Clay stated in his previous post the original 924 had a Fox engine, which I agree with, but he also confused me when he said it had the transmission too. I remember the Audi Fox as being front wheel drive, so I figured he was mistaken when he stated it came with the Fox tranny. Longitudinal or not, if that's a Fox transaxle then the Fox had a much longer front end than I remember. Cool picture though
Is that a manual or auto? The big black item on the back end?
Never paid too much attention to the 924/944s. Then I went and looked at CL. There's a rough, no more so than a 914 project car, 944 for sale nearby in Port Orchard. Pictures show Fuchs wheels. If they are the real deal prob worth more than the asking. $1700. So...Ls conversation under $10k?
Never paid too much attention to the 924/944s. Then I went and looked at CL. There's a rough, no more so than a 914 project car, 944 for sale nearby in Port Orchard. Pictures show Fuchs wheels. If they are the real deal prob worth more than the asking. $1700. So...Ls conversation under $10k?
QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 25 2020, 11:39 AM)
So...Ls conversation under $10k?
What the heck is up with everyone's urge to put an LS in everything? 
QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jan 25 2020, 11:49 AM)
QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 25 2020, 11:39 AM)
So...Ls conversation under $10k?
What the heck is up with everyone's urge to put and LS in everything? The owner of our shop wants to put an LS in a Ferrari that’s getting repaired. We put one in a 928 track car and it was a monster.
I can understand the attraction, in about a week and for the cost of a decent T4 rebuild, the brand new LS engine shows up at your doorstep.
QUOTE(mepstein @ Jan 25 2020, 11:55 AM)
The owner of our shop wants to put an LS in a Ferrari that’s getting repaired.
OK sure it's his car . . . live and let live. But I still reserve the right to pass my own personal judgement. Stupid is as stupid does.
1) Destroy value of Ferrari
2) Still get beat in stop light race by stock Tesla P100D AWD Ludicrious mode.
3) Show to others how little appreaciation you have for the Marque
4) Sends the message that you really couldn't afford to properly fix the Ferrari
5) Get snickered at by others for #1 thru #4
Faster stop light to stop light starting at $138k? Ok. I say a 310 mile run and see who gets there first. For pink slips...I get to pick the route. Everett to Spokane WA. On Hwy 2 the whole distance.
The 924turbo had a 915 ring gear and diff parts from memory
QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 25 2020, 12:32 PM)
Faster stop light to stop light starting at $138k? Ok. I say a 310 mile run and see who gets there first. For pink slips...I get to pick the route. Everett to Spokane WA. On Hwy 2 the whole distance.
All fair points. However we're talking a Ferrari here (model unknown) so I'm not sure purchase cost of the Tesla enters the discussion.
Although my inner 4 year old loves the idea of big motors in little cars, I've been at this long enough to realize that while smoky burnouts and drifting on track might be fun, it isn't fast.
QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 25 2020, 08:39 AM)
Never paid too much attention to the 924/944s. Then I went and looked at CL. There's a rough, no more so than a 914 project car, 944 for sale nearby in Port Orchard. Pictures show Fuchs wheels. If they are the real deal prob worth more than the asking. $1700. So...Ls conversation under $10k?
I know this thread has jumped the shark but...reminds me of an (old) Joke/riddle:
Q: How do Dbl the value of a 924/944 A: Fill the tank
Who breaks even on any of them? I'll look for a shark jump. 
AA-?? 
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