get your cars ready now and come out to play!

http://www.pca-ggr.org/archive.html#msg436

who's in?

demick? howard? grant? trekkor? birgit? andrew? steve? gwen? ANDY (back from vacation?)? jenny (tranny?)? anthony? greg? mueller (bring the tail dragger?)? albert? chris? randal? ken? rob?

let's make a showing...

n

I out this weekend.

See ya on the 23rd or 24th...

May pop in to watch after 2:00.

KT

I'll be there, but with the other mid engine Porsche. Haven't finalized the deal on the BP car yet....probably won't have it in time for this Sat.
Back on street tires...should be intersting

I would like to come but...... new tires and my boss has made Saturday a mandatory working day...damnit. Quarter end close stinks... I'll definitely stop by to watch when I get out though...

Oh, and good news, I got my new rims today, so all I need to do now is pinch my pennies and get some (probably cheap) racing tires for the fakes. Don't want to spend to much money when I'm just having fun learning to drive better.

Nathan, I'd love to be there but were having Habitat for Humanity fund-raiser at my place that day...luau theme...will be pouring mai-tai's and working the bbq. This may well be a "test run" for the bay area 914 clubbers later in the summer. Ya'll are a great group. Thanks for the heads-up

Greg

I would be there if my car was ready.......................

Bought a heat gun, a grinder and a big rubber mallet today. All are VERY dangerous in my hands! I have a 7 lb bag of tar so far and damn that grinder cuts through metal like butter. No more exhaust shield in the back. Hey Nathan want more camber? Oh yeah, those holes my front fenders from removed side lights are sexy. I have some nice decals that will take care of those. Front spoiler goes on tomorrow. I'm tearing into the doors for weight loss opportunities.

Car will be 25lbs lighter and about and inch or two lower and corner balanced, well it was corner balanced before I got into tar and other things! (complements of Nathan's suspension lowering and corner balance service) I just hope my Hoosiers fit ok. I think I have enough clearence from looking at the wheels mounted on the car.

Engine is running pretty rough but should be ok. I think I have a roasted valve on one of my cylinders.

The ugly mobile should be there.

you're a monster, grant! change to corner balance will be negligible as you're picking off bits from all over the car. may i ask how much that exhaust shield weighed?

greg, sorry you'll have to miss, but it sounds like a great excuse.


demick, howard, jenny?

I am so tempted to join you, but with my rusty deck lid, "two-tone" paint job (read, backyard bodywork), bald 10 year old tires, salt-air corroded wheels, and general ugliness, I think the taildraggers and boxster owners would laugh me off the tarmac.

I think I'll wait til next summer when the teener will 'represent' a little better.

HAve fun!

The only problem I see in that list is the 10-year-old bald tires. Get some new rubber and come out to play!!

Uhm, I can't. My attorney has scheduled something for Saturday.

--DD

dave, i haven't seen you at the AX's in so long i forgot to put your name on the list! sorry! (but as a former student, i must say: get your ass back out there!)

jake -- if it's all that's holding you back, come anyway and i'll let you run your car on my street tires.

n

How did I know that you fellow teeners were going to bait me into showing up?

Here's the deal: my tires are old and worn, but still supple with no threads showing (probably pretty close to slicks). I think my car is safe, but am a little concerned about a RR bearing that is making noise. I wouldn't want to deal with a AAA tow from Alameda to Palo Alto (big $$).

Since I've never ax'd anything before, I have no idea how long I might be there. Is it possible to get in the AM group and leave by noon or so? I have a late model motorcycle helmet and a fire extinguisher.

Wow, the thought of ax'ing a $450 car right next to a $90,000 taildragger. Kind of cool.

Every AX this year so far has conflicted with some other commitment of mine. I am determined to get out to at least one this year! I promise

I might bring the Miata along. Not sure though - might be on kid duty.

QUOTE (Lyressa Roberts @ Jul 6 2005, 06:10 PM)

Oh, and good news, I got my new rims today, so all I need to do now is pinch my pennies and get some (probably cheap) racing tires for the fakes. Don't want to spend to much money when I'm just having fun learning to drive better.

FYI, My friend Steve just ordered 4 "nonexistant": 205-50-15 Falken Azenis R-215's for his turbo Omni. Yes there are still a few left. $71 at vulcantire.com. He ordered them yesterday...no guaranties about today.

usually we're done around 3-4pm, sometimes later. yes, you can only run the AM. wheel bearings, tires, brakes, battery tie-down are the issues. if those are okay, then your car will pass tech. you can borrow a helmet or use your Snell M-rated, nothing else needed ('cept entry fee)

btw, the only thing more exhilerating than racing a $100k car is beating it!

Boy what a bunch of lame excuses! Schedule your life around the autocrosses, not the other way around!!

My mother and sister are flying in from Arkansas for an overnight stay enroute to China. I'm having my wife pick them up at SFO and bring them over to watch. So don't hesitat to come over and say hello to Mom.

Andrew

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jul 7 2005, 12:27 PM)

you're a monster, grant!  change to corner balance will be negligible as you're picking off bits from all over the car.  may i ask how much that exhaust shield weighed?

Shield is approximately 5 lbs. But you know how many of those little 4-6 lb things I have pulled off the car? They add up quickly. I was able to get a little over 10lbs of tar out with my seats in the car. A couple more lbs once I take them out. I never want to smell hot aged German tar again!

Talked my wife into coming to this event. We'll see if I can get her to drive the car, doubtful. I know she's up for an "instruction" ride however.

BTW nice avatar Nathan!

QUOTE (Jakester @ Jul 7 2005, 02:00 PM)

How did I know that you fellow teeners were going to bait me into showing up? Here's the deal: my tires are old and worn, but still supple with no threads showing (probably pretty close to slicks). I think my car is safe, but am a little concerned about a RR bearing that is making noise. I wouldn't want to deal with a AAA tow from Alameda to Palo Alto (big $$). Since I've never ax'd anything before, I have no idea how long I might be there. Is it possible to get in the AM group and leave by noon or so? I have a late model motorcycle helmet and a fire extinguisher. Wow, the thought of ax'ing a $450 car right next to a $90,000 taildragger. Kind of cool.

If you need tires you can use my Yokohama AX tires/wheels. Just look for a really ugly Olympic Blue and black car.

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Jul 7 2005, 07:17 PM)

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jul 7 2005, 12:27 PM) you're a monster, grant!  change to corner balance will be negligible as you're picking off bits from all over the car.  may i ask how much that exhaust shield weighed? Shield is approximately 5 lbs. But you know how many of those little 4-6 lb things I have pulled off the car? They add up quickly. I was able to get a little over 10lbs of tar out with my seats in the car. A couple more lbs once I take them out. I never want to smell hot aged German tar again! Talked my wife into coming to this event. We'll see if I can get her to drive the car, doubtful. I know she's up for an "instruction" ride however.

Only if she is a paid participant, and you are a GGR/zone7 instructor. Seriously, we can loose our insurance if a non-participant is in a car, or two folks are in a car and one of them is not an instructor.

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Jul 7 2005, 07:35 PM)

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Jul 7 2005, 07:17 PM) QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jul 7 2005, 12:27 PM) you're a monster, grant!  change to corner balance will be negligible as you're picking off bits from all over the car.  may i ask how much that exhaust shield weighed? Shield is approximately 5 lbs. But you know how many of those little 4-6 lb things I have pulled off the car? They add up quickly. I was able to get a little over 10lbs of tar out with my seats in the car. A couple more lbs once I take them out. I never want to smell hot aged German tar again! Talked my wife into coming to this event. We'll see if I can get her to drive the car, doubtful. I know she's up for an "instruction" ride however. Only if she is a paid participant, and you are a GGR/zone7 instructor. Seriously, we can loose our insurance if a non-participant is in a car, or two folks are in a car and one of them is not an instructor.

That's almost laughable given other safety issues at Alameda. Who said she wasnt going to be a paid particpant or without a zone 7 instructor? I'd say currently greater risk of losing insurance is overall lack of safety focus at GGR events. Inadequet training of course workers and the lack of people available on the longer course. I have been in two situations at differnt Alameda events were course workers have left their posts while event is in progress with no relief. How many of us have found ourselves alone with no spotter? I think if there is going to be a saftey focus and insurance concern that is the place to start. Many of us have voiced our concerns about GGR events.

What is so laughable and what have you seen happen at Alameda or any GGR event?
It always amazes me that so many participants don't pay attention at the mandatory drivers meeting and attempt to give rides to their buddies, significant others etc.
As the past competition director of GGR I had to deal with several of these issues. Just a friendly reminder, nothing more nothing less. I would hate to see GGR lose it's insurability because of a simple oversite.
Also in your post you said you doubt if she would drive but she was up for an "instruction" ride. You going to pay $30 just to have her get an "instruction" ride
Sorry if you take offense.

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Jul 7 2005, 08:17 PM)

What is so laughable and what have you seen happen at Alameda or any GGR event? It always amazes me that so many  participants don't pay attention at the mandatory drivers meeting and attempt to give rides to their buddies, significant others etc. As the past competition director of GGR I had to deal with several of these issues.   Just a friendly reminder, nothing more nothing less.  I would hate to see GGR lose it's insurability because of a simple oversite. Also in your post you said you doubt if she would drive but she was up for an "instruction" ride.  You going to pay $30 just to have her get an "instruction" ride Sorry if you take offense.

I have seen multiple non instructor rides at GGR events, but as I said lack of overall saftey focus by many participants has been an on going issue since last year. I dont think I have been to a single event where course workers were not asked to be single marshals by the event coordinators on very fast sections of courses with multiple cars on course. To add to this issue there are non course workers roving on hot courses on scooters etc. Even kids in some hot areas. I as a driver have had two reruns in the past 3 events due to single course workers not seeing me and being on course as I approach at very high speeds. I have also been in situations where course workers have abanodnoned postions, multiple radio calls into coordinators with no relief and finally we red flagged cars to get somone out. I know there are some people who wont go to a GGR event due to these issues of workers not showing up.

And yes to get my wife out on the course I would pay $30 to have her sit in a car with an instructor. No ofense taken. We have spent money before on driving instruction for her. If she decides she wants to ride with somone before registration starts then she'll sign up. She's very intimidated about driving the car on her own as she has never done an AX. I just found your concern interesting given saftey issues we have all witnessed at GGR events completely unrelated to a non instructor giving a ride. Espeically since it is a rule that is fregrantly abused by many and not enforced. An unenforced rule really isnt a good rule.

If you are at the event just take a look at things in the afternoon seession and ask yourself if it is a safe enviroment for some of the course workers.

Have you voiced your concerns to the event Chairs or the current Competiton Director or the Chief Instructor?
These are all items that should be dealt with "real time" when possible.
That would be a good place to start. I take your concerns seriously, even though I am no longer in a position fo "power", I am concerned about the overall safety of our events.
I am currently co-chief steward of the time trial series and am in communications with all corner workers, tow and ambulance. Total control of the ontrack activities. I am well aware of the safety issues with speed events and would like to discuss your concerns on Sat if we get the chance. I will be in the red Boxster #81.

Grant is right.

In the PM, drivers start getting their cars ready to go home, or who knows what, after their runs instead of relieving course workers.

I have personally been way out at the far end 15-20 minutes into MY rest period. We call in for relief.
Answer comes back for us to "come in and abandon the post". This would leave three or four posts four for just a couple of people to to cover.

We called in that we are NOT going to do that.
Why create a dangerous situation?

The "hot turnover" speed things along, yes.
Participants are not taking it seriously, though.

Also, course workers for some reason, do not pay close attention to each car running. They should not be missing downed cones.

Some feel compelled to reset a cone at any cost.
I have seen workers literally diving aside to avoid being hit...STUPID!!

I went up and told them, Forget the cone. Wait until it is safe.

If the driver wants a re-run, he'll stop, and get one.
When you get run over...NO RE-RUN.

KT

I cannot make it this weekend. Conflicts abound.

Steve

Is it 2006 yet?

Bill P.

Instructors/Rides etc...

I think it is hard sometimes to know who is an instructor and who is not. At the Z7 school there were so many folks that I didn't know... so we need to concede that it is hard to tell.

I also believe that the Grid workers need to take a more active role here... Grid is more then shuffle the cars so they can go on course and provide car #'s... they should check to make sure that helmets are strapped on? driver (and passenger) seat belts are on? if 2 people are in the car, that one of them the instructor? Simple... but rarely done.

At smaller events like at many Zone, or LPR, Redwood or SVR - it is clearer on who is 'certified' and who is not. I have stopped a few violaters over the years. If you see a violation of the rule... call the person on it now. The rule should be stated at the Drivers meeting - but we all need to help enforce it.

Do some folks get away with it...? Yep... most certainly some do... but they could really ^&$% it up for all of us if something where to happen.

Workers:

I have proposed that we increase the duration between cars... frankly at Alameda where the distances are large, and intervals between cars is ~ 20 seconds, it is very dificult to get to the car in time and get back to a safe place.

Relief Workers:

We all should do our part and pay attention and go relieve early... unfortunately good karma will not always get you relieved on time. So 2 solutions...

1- Some clubs have designated course worker positions that are numbered and have signs. When you check in you are given a station number. You don't walk around asking if someone needs relief etc... you go to your station. You will also get relieved since the person keeping track should ensure that each station has folks (or folk) assigned.

2- If all stations have not been relieved - stop the event... Yes - stopping the event sucks - but there has to be a consequence to those show up late etc... Heck if having a run group pissed at you for holding the show up - perhaps we should a one second penalty to their best run of the day.

I think we all need to concede that running a volunteer group of well over 100 individuals, with all types of personalities and levels of rationality, sanity and scrupples is very, very difficult and daunting. Considering this - the events are still fairly safe. I say fairly because with safety there is always room for improvement.

On a side note - I was told that all that the chairs has gotten is support for what they are doing - very little if any constructive criticism. We need to bring issues to Doug and Dana, but we also need to recognize that we also need to bring solutions to the discussion. I think we should take Dan's advice and highlight the issues to Doug and Dana when it happens so it can get addressed. If it is not done to satisfaction - please escalate to Competition Director, etc...

Steve

Having only been to one A/X, I can't add a lot of experience. But there were two BIG points that I noticed at the event.

1. The drivers meeting was 15 minutes of course info (obviously not taken very seriously) and about 30 minutes of self-promotion bull for a few various non A/X events. I thought at the time (and still do) that it was a flagrant abuse of the meeting.

2. I wasn't relieved during after my course working. I like the idea of having people sign up for a station. It's all about accountability. It would also be great if they had an "intermission" between run groups to get people to switch "activities". Imagine, last driver finishes his run, all course workers come in, new course workers go out, once all the posts are manned, new runs start. Takes more time, but keeps people safe. You can't mess around with losing these A/Xs. We have a ton around here and we need to keep it that way.

Great discussion!

good discussion. i have to agree entirely with grant's assesment of safety at alameda. i have gotten really frustrated w/ saftey issues there before, and have witnessed many situations which could have escalated into 'incidents' there this year. IMHO, course workers need to be paired and have safety protocal pounded into their heads before every event. likewise, 'spectators' need to be better controlled out on a hot field. i know it's cool to get close up photos, but i have seen people do the dumbest shit trying to take a pic of their friend driving by at 70mph. get a zoom lens, it's just not worth it. i have personally (as calmly as possible) talked with such people and tried to convey my concerns to them, but such talk is always better from a more 'official' source.

and as long as we're at it -- what the hell is up with people not putting numbers on their cars? as a courseworker, THAT is frustrating. "3 cones on the 911. no, not the carrera, the SC. the red one. the other red one." leads to all sorts of cone-counting errors.


unless anyone objects, i'm going to send doug and dana a link to this thread.



p.s. don't let this discourage anyone from coming out this saturday! it's a great site and usually well-run overall!

QUOTE (McMark @ Jul 8 2005, 01:02 AM)

1. The drivers meeting was 15 minutes of course info (obviously not taken very seriously) and about 30 minutes of self-promotion bull for a few various non A/X events. I thought at the time (and still do) that it was a flagrant abuse of the meeting.

dude, i totally agree. this was the Zone 7 event 1 in the RR. 15 minutes TOPS of 'driver's meeting' and another 30 minutes of 'advertising' and such.

QUOTE (Dave-O @ Jul 7 2005, 02:10 PM)

QUOTE (Lyressa Roberts @ Jul 6 2005, 06:10 PM) Oh, and good news, I got my new rims today, so all I need to do now is pinch my pennies and get some (probably cheap) racing tires for the fakes.  :D Don't want to spend to much money when I'm just having fun learning to drive better. FYI, My friend Steve just ordered 4 "nonexistant": 205-50-15 Falken Azenis R-215's for his turbo Omni. Yes there are still a few left. $71 at vulcantire.com. He ordered them yesterday...no guaranties about today.

I'll keep that in mind.

Thanks!!!

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jul 7 2005, 09:27 PM)

Also, course workers for some reason, do not pay close attention to each car running. They should not be missing downed cones. Some feel compelled to reset a cone at any cost. I have seen workers literally diving aside to avoid being hit...STUPID!! I went up and told them, Forget the cone. Wait until it is safe. If the driver wants a re-run, he'll stop, and get one. When you get run over...NO RE-RUN. KT

You know, I scared a driver once when I was either on my way to or from a cone (I don't recall). I felt as if I were safe, but I freaked out the driver. I felt bad because I messed up his run, but I felt safe where I was. But I guess if I worried him, I was obviously somewhere I shouldn't have been...

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jul 7 2005, 02:11 PM)

wheel bearings, tires, brakes, battery tie-down are the issues. if those are okay, then your car will pass tech.

Glad you mentioned battery tie down. Between that and the wheel bearing, I think my teener is marginal for a tech inspection.

Alas, I will have to pass.

Thanks to those who offered to lend their wheels.

Rest assured, I WILL be out there someday soon.

QUOTE

good discussion

My view is that safety has taken a step backwards at GGR and (worse) LPR.

However, if you see or have issue with any safety situation it is extremely important that you talk with the management, i.e., Dana and Doug at GGR or Cathy at LPR. They are great people and care, even though they get very busy trying to run/coordinate the events.

I believe the solution is to have key players, i.e., course workers, the starter and grid personnel, get extra safety instruction in the AM and a remainder in the PM. We should keep doing this until safety improves.

And there needs to be certain qualification for a job, i.e. , if someone wants to do starting, then they need to work with a experienced starter to "learn" what needs to be done, i.e., like watching the positions or the cars/speed/etc. before releasing the next car.

I also believe that we need a "position," i.e., rover safety inspector, to stop by and where necessary remind workers what they are supposed to be doing. Especially the course workers that quickly forget the importance of course worker partner discipline (spotter and cone corrector).

BTW if things seem totally out of hand to you, then talk to Larry Sharp, our Zone 7 representative to PCA.

A couple of suggestions to improve course worker safety.

At Marina last time an expereinced instructor selected the course worker locations and reviewed safety issues with each worker. At Alameda often inexpereinced particpants will walk onto the course without a clue to where dangerous places are on a paticular course. While not a safety issue I'd also like rules around how DNF is called when somone goes off course seems to always be confusion over that issue. Also all senarios where a red flag should be used such as car leaking oil, part hanging off. At the last GGR AX a car had a headlight hanging by the wires and I had to call on the radio to get the other course workers to red flag the driver. I was at the opposite end of the course and this car had past several course workers with the light dangling. Maybe a seperate course worker meeting is the way to go?

Maybe dont go with hot turnovers and do set expectation that course workers need to be in place ASAP? If a course worker hasnt checked in within 5 minutes of the conclusion of a run group maybe their times shouldnt count? Three cars at 20 second intervals can be dangerous at Alameda. Especially on the later parts of the course where fast cars are catching slow cars.

I agree with Randal starter postion should be handled by an expereinced person. How many times have we seen a stock 912 or 914 go out with a very fast modified car behind only given 20 seconds. If that slower car has a cone strike your asking for the course worker to make a decision to run to a cone with a fast approaching car. There seems to be a focus on getting as many runs as possible as opposed to being completely safe with spacing.

As far as instructors go. Why not just have an instructor badge? Pretty simple way to validate everything is kosher. If we could lose insurance for these events becuase of noninstructor ride alongs then I think we should have more formal ways to validate instructor runs and actually enforce the rule.

I want to make it clear GGR events are good AX's and well run. Great competition and they have gone on without incident so far. I just dont think safety can be overstated.

Nathan, I think it would be a good idea to send this thread and I have no objections. We all benefit from making safety a key focus at these events. I really havent spoken up until now as I was one of those clueless course workers not too long ago. With a little expereince under my belt and my increased particpation in these events I'm just more aware of the potential issues.

QUOTE

My view is that safety has taken a step backwards at GGR and (worse) LPR.

We are making this out to be worse than it really is.
No one has been injured. This is good.
Last LPR a/x was extremly safe. No close calls. ALL worker postitions were manned well. The starters we're very attentive to the car spacing and paid close attention.
And this was the fastest course I've ever driven.

Safety issues must be viewed as THE most important factor. This is true.

Course worker postitions seem to get dropped on newbies as an undesirable, left-over job.
People need to realize, that the red flag is the first tool for a/x safety. Newbies are VERY hesitant to wave the red flag due to the fact that they don't always know when to do it or are worried about stopping the event for " no reason" and feeling embarassed in front of all these "pros".

At the drivers meeting the a/x chair always states that instructors should WORK with thier students in their assignments.

True, instructors work double and triple duty.
Maybe they should work with each one of their students for a few minutes each session to make sure they understand that a mis-thrown red flag will only mean the driver's on course will get a re-run, ( tires are hot now...No complaints from them).

Doug and Dana are working hard for us. ( GGR and LPR, as well )They want to have fun, too. Let's help them by teaching the beginners what to do.

The responsibility rests on all of us.

KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jul 8 2005, 10:35 AM)

QUOTE My view is that safety has taken a step backwards at GGR and (worse) LPR. We are making this out to be worse than it really is. No one has been injured. This is good. Last LPR a/x was extremly safe. No close calls. ALL worker postitions were manned well. The starters we're very attentive to the car spacing and paid close attention. And this was the fastest course I've ever driven. Safety issues must be viewed as THE most important factor. This is true. Course worker postitions seem to get dropped on newbies as an undesirable, left-over job. People need to realize, that the red flag is the first tool for a/x safety. Newbies are VERY hesitant to wave the red flag due to the fact that they don't always know when to do it or are worried about stopping the event for " no reason" and feeling embarassed in front of all these "pros". At the drivers meeting the a/x chair always states that instructors should WORK with thier students in their assignments. True, instructors work double and triple duty. Maybe they should work with each one of their students for a few minutes each session to make sure they understand that a mis-thrown red flag will only mean the driver's on course will get a re-run, ( tires are hot now...No complaints from them). Doug and Dana are working hard for us. ( GGR and LPR, as well )They want to have fun, too. Let's help them by teaching the beginners what to do. The responsibility rests on all of us. KT

I agree I didnt mean for my tone to be so negative. In reading my own posts I sound unappreciative of all the hard work that goes into these events. That wasnt my intent. GGR events are probably the best in the region from a coordination perspective. Lots of great work has been done. But there are safety issues we all need to be aware of at these events. My feeling is we can all work together to make events even safer.

i don't think anyone is ragging on the events -- hell, if they weren't great then we wouldn't even be having this discussion!

but safety issues are altogether a seperate thing, and things do seem a bit too 'relaxed' in this regard.

To Doug and Dana, if you are reading, I would echo most of what has been said. I've experienced all of the following over the last 5 or 6 GGR AXes I've attended:

I've experienced not being relieved on time.

I've also experienced situations where there didn't seem to be enough workers on the course. I keep asking myself where is everybody that was just running?

I've experienced the lack of numbers on cars when I was working and not being able to radio in accurate info. A tiny shoe polish number on the windshield doesn't do it. Cars shouldn't pass tech without at least big tape numbers on the doors.

Almost every time I relieve someone on the course they seem to be very inexperienced at flagging and radioing information. I think that working the course properly should be taught at the autocross school. People should rotate jobs at the AX school so they get a feel for the whole operation. On real AX days my suggestion is that someone needs to check in everybody who just ran, pair experienced workers with newbies and direct them to an exact worker location. If you don't show up for work, all your times should be scratched and you should be suspended from the next two or three events. There's no excuse for skipping work. If there truely aren't enough workers for the course then the run groups need to be larger.

When I was working the course I had a guy with a PCA badge trying to take pictures too close on the outside of a turn. One spin and he would have been running for his life. He took offense when I told him to back off.

I have a suggestion for the AX school and maybe regular AXes. I was handing out time slips at the AX school as my worker assignment. Frequently new drivers were racing past the timing light even as the instructor was giving them the slow down signal. The drivers were completly unaware that they had passed the finish line. I think adequate run-off after the timing light needs to be designed into each course and I think a stop sign would be a very helpful visual clue for drivers to make a full stop or at least a hollywood stop a good distance from the person giving out the slips. When I was passing out slips on both the short course and long course there were many times when I didn't feel safe working that position.

BTW, I loved the AX school. My instructors were fantastic and got great times out of me and my car. It was by far the best PCA event I've been to. Thanks!

This discussion is not meant to put people on the defensive.
Rather, nobody wants somebody flopping up an over their hood at speed.
Not meant to sound funny. If people aren't paying full attention. Eventually someone will get hurt...Or worse.

We just can't get too comfortable and let our guard down.
There is a reason why pedestrians are not allowed to walk along the freeway.

KT

The safety steward works well. We have on for each run group at both our local PCA & SCCA autocrosses.

As for instructors, they are appointed and handed out ( )
to those in need at the drivers meeting.
As to course workers....this is tougher at PCA than SCCA.

SCCA is hell on wheels about this....work or they'll black ball your ass.....end of problem.

The clanish/clubishness of the PCA
makes this tougher. If someone abuses this, they are taken aside and "spoken to". We always seem to have new people who don't know the drill. Some want to get with the program & pay attention, others think it's a social event