Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Elec Air Cond
914World.com > The 914 Forums > 914World Garage
Coondog
I have been waiting for Patrick Motor Sports to start installing this in 914s. I have reached out to them and will pass on any info given. Not a fan of the vent set up in this Patrick car but anything custom could be done in there shop.
Click to view attachment
eric9144
That's pretty slick, did that go into the blue 6 that was in Pano?
Wonder what all is added elsewhere to make this work, the "in cabin" bits are pretty minimal and I've heard it actually works pretty well beerchug.gif
Cairo94507
Hi Greg, I am watching for this too. I would love to have AC in my Six if ti was a clean set-up. beerchug.gif popcorn[1].gif
Coondog
QUOTE(eric9144 @ Jul 28 2020, 10:30 PM) *

That's pretty slick, did that go into the blue 6 that was in Pano?
Wonder what all is added elsewhere to make this work, the "in cabin" bits are pretty minimal and I've heard it actually works pretty well beerchug.gif



Yes, same car.
Matty900
QUOTE(Coondog @ Jul 29 2020, 06:08 AM) *

QUOTE(eric9144 @ Jul 28 2020, 10:30 PM) *

That's pretty slick, did that go into the blue 6 that was in Pano?
Wonder what all is added elsewhere to make this work, the "in cabin" bits are pretty minimal and I've heard it actually works pretty well beerchug.gif



Yes, same car.

it's classic Retrofits unit that they are testing out. It's still in the R&D stage. We are working with them now and may be carrying some AC options in the near future. I will have a test unit in my current build that is just coming out of paint now. I have a friend in Vegas with one of their units in his 930 and they blow ice cold
JmuRiz
eeeeeexcellent Guess I should get a high power alternator when I put my 911 engine back together.
mepstein
They are great units but when you tell people they are $5K, not including installation, there is usually a long pause. Not a big deal in a $150-200K build but a significant portion of many 914-6 conversions.
IronHillRestorations
You've got to have a very high output alternator, and the wiring to support it
mepstein
QUOTE(IronHillRestorations @ Jul 29 2020, 01:28 PM) *

You've got to have a very high output alternator, and the wiring to support it

They sell one for $1K
Cairo94507
Me- Long pause....... beerchug.gif
nditiz1
For any one with a 911 there is a group buy scheduled to end Aug 1st for the setup with 10 off. I think its around ~3550 shipped
RFoulds
If its the same system that is currently available for 911, its not worth it. cant keep up with a 90 degree day here in the desert, let alone 110.
mepstein
QUOTE(RFoulds @ Jul 29 2020, 04:49 PM) *

If its the same system that is currently available for 911, its not worth it. cant keep up with a 90 degree day here in the desert, let alone 110.

The shop I used to work at, has installed a number of them, including 3 for a customer with 20+ Porsches who lives in Texas. They work great, even in very high heat and humidity but they do take some care to install. The high power alternator is a must and there are some tricks and tips to getting the best out of the system. It's like a lot of automotive parts. Some people assemble parts and call it done. Other people build, sort and tune and know how to get the most from the car.

76-914
Someone here is doing an elec AC in his 6. It will be interesting to see how it performs.
GregAmy
Heat doesn't work well in winter, A/C is too expensive for the summer.

That's why I call my 914 the "Three Season Porch(e)".
rgalla9146
Many are interested in this.
I wish there were specifics about installations that included dimensions and compatability on condensers, receiver dryers, expansion valves and evaporators.
Succesful installs will establish what works.
A remote electric compressor that only requires a big amp alternator (and horsepower) is a great starting point.
Steve
Keith and I are playing around with different options all based on the Benling DM18A7 Electric compressor, aftermarket condenser, 911 condenser and off the shelf evaporators. Hopefully in a month we should be able to post something. Classic retrofit said they would sell this console evaporator separately. I am seeing the Benling electric compressor on evil bay for under $800.00. So if your a hobbyist the total solution is not that expensive if you piece mail it yourself. Do the math.... Benling compressor on the lowest setting is 40 amps + evaporator fans, condenser or oil cooler fans if your using a 911 condenser in front of your six oil cooler. A 2.7 alternator is 70 amps and a 3.2 alternator is 90 amps. With LED headlights, what else are you powering....??
This makes sense for a six conversion, for a four or water cooled power plant your better off with a standard belt driven compressor. Check out my blog for a picture of my condenser setup. The 911 condenser is about the length and height of a Mazda cooler, so you would need to modify your GT shroud to make it fit.
76-914
QUOTE(Steve @ Jul 29 2020, 05:31 PM) *

Keith and I are playing around with different options all based on the Benling DM18A7 Electric compressor, aftermarket condenser, 911 condenser and off the shelf evaporators. Hopefully in a month we should be able to post something. Classic retrofit said they would sell this console evaporator separately. I am seeing the Benling electric compressor on evil bay for under $800.00. So if your a hobbyist the total solution is not that expensive if you piece mail it yourself. Do the math.... Benling compressor on the lowest setting is 40 amps + evaporator fans, condenser or oil cooler fans if your using a 911 condenser in front of your six oil cooler. A 2.7 alternator is 70 amps and a 3.2 alternator is 90 amps. With LED headlights, what else are you powering....??
This makes sense for a six conversion, for a four or water cooled power plant your better off with a standard belt driven compressor. Check out my blog for a picture of my condenser setup. The 911 condenser is about the length and height of a Mazda cooler, so you would need to modify your GT shroud to make it fit.

40 amps is on low or the lowest scroll rpm. Medium is 60a and high is 96a IIRC. Not that it won’t work and I hope it does. Lots of people need AC in their 914’s. I like the look of the evaporator Keith selected. As I told Keith, hose routing is very tight under the dash. I needed to flatten mine down to get past the steering column. beerchug.gif
914forme
96a just means you will be hitting the backup storage, battery for the additional Amps. That is going to take a serious wire #4 if it is all copper, and #2 if it is an aluminum or AL - copper clad.

Example

Never used the product just showing an example to make it easier on the next person.

Now time to pop the popcorn[1].gif
914Toy
I will be collecting pics along this technical journey and will be posting when this AC system is installed and working.
76-914
QUOTE(914forme @ Jul 30 2020, 06:10 AM) *

96a just means you will be hitting the backup storage, battery for the additional Amps. That is going to take a serious wire #4 if it is all copper, and #2 if it is an aluminum or AL - copper clad.

Example

Never used the product just showing an example to make it easier on the next person.

Now time to pop the popcorn[1].gif

Could be and I'm interested to see just like the rest of us, Stephan. Mark said his experience with them is that they are marginal which leads me to suspect they might require running on high a good amount of the time. Keith's unit will mount within 2-3ft of his battery which is also located in the front, so that helps with the wire size. An advantage that Keith will have over the units that Mark has experienced is the dry climate his will operate in. In skimming over the data for that brand unit I notice it is used for the sleeping area in a Semi Cab which, to me, would indicate night usage. There are however several larger units they sell and some of them surely can handle severe conditions, i.e. TX, OK, LA, FL, etc. I'd like to see how they perform in the heat of the day as well. Keith is a sharp cookie so I'm sure he'll cover all of the bases. So fingers crossed for his success. beerchug.gif
Luke M
popcorn[1].gif

I need a/c in my 6 too. I'll be keeping an eye on this.

shades.gif
Bleyseng
For a 4 cylinder then sourcing a 70amp bus alternator and having it rebuilt to a higher output might be the ticket to power these electric AC's.
Steve
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jul 30 2020, 08:26 AM) *

For a 4 cylinder then sourcing a 70amp bus alternator and having it rebuilt to a higher output might be the ticket to power these electric AC's.

There is plenty of room for a compressor on a 4 or water cooler transplant. Why deal with an inefficient electric compressor?
914e
QUOTE(Steve @ Jul 30 2020, 09:36 AM) *

QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jul 30 2020, 08:26 AM) *

For a 4 cylinder then sourcing a 70amp bus alternator and having it rebuilt to a higher output might be the ticket to power these electric AC's.

There is plenty of room for a compressor on a 4 or water cooler transplant. Why deal with an inefficient electric compressor?

An electric compressor can be more efficient since it runs at constant speeds it does not have to be as large as one turned by the engine. In modern cars it is more efficient, plus you have the auto start stop engines now.

A typical modern compressor is said to use about 3kW to drive it, vs the under 1kW for these electric compressors. 12 volts is still tough. The 914 has very old inefficient alternators so it likely a wash.

As I remember the old long 6 cylinder GM compressors used something like 25 HP about 19kW of course it also had about 3-1/2 tons of cooling output.
SKL1
I saw 115 on the car thermometer today but I sure as hell wasn't in a 914!! And doubt any AC unit would work in that temp in a 914 or any AC'ed P car...

ibmiked
Will it keep up with a Saratoga Top in summer? lol-2.gif
wes
QUOTE(ibmiked @ Jul 31 2020, 07:55 AM) *

Will it keep up with a Saratoga Top in summer? lol-2.gif


lol-2.gif That would be a challenge!
Cairo94507
I am destined to sweat. beerchug.gif
horizontally-opposed
Watching the development of these systems with keen interest. Not prepared to spend the $10-15k (installed and sorted) for an electric A/C system, which is the number mentioned by a high-end hot-rod builder, but…

I can see where $5-15k might represent good value for an enthusiast who can only have one "fun" car in the garage and would like to eliminate a primary reason they don't drive it on hot days or long trips—or why they trailer it to events. Whether it's psychological, or a matter of being just plain spoiled/ruined by ice-cold air in my second daily driver, I can see the logic in making a 914 more usable more of the time vs letting it just sit there on hot days or, worse, buying an additional sports car with A/C (probably for more money than $5-15k plus storage, maintenance, insurance, etc).

If the 914 is the only classic car I keep, I am good with that choice—while I love early 911s, 356s, step-nose GTs, Cobra replicas (there, I said it...), early GTIs, and a whole host of other cars, my appreciation for the 914's concept and design have only grown with time and are still growing 31 years into this ride. But while I never wish for power locks in my 914, nor much in the way of a modern car's conveniences, good A/C would be a game-changer. If the disposable income presents itself, and if it can be done without adding a lot of weight while using the existing late dash vents, I might be interested…
76-914
QUOTE(SKL1 @ Jul 30 2020, 07:42 PM) *

I saw 115 on the car thermometer today but I sure as hell wasn't in a 914!! And doubt any AC unit would work in that temp in a 914 or any AC'ed P car...

I'm pretty sure mine would since the compressor was previously on a station wagon with dual sunroofs. If the day comes it won't handle Mother Nature I'm switching over to R-12.
tygaboy
Does anyone know which evaporator they're hiding in that console? I've got an LS so the alternator output isn't an issue for me. I'm limited by the physical space I have left to locate the evap unit.
Here's the eval unit I bought. The outlets in the above pics look suspiciously familiar: same unit turned on its end?

https://www.southernrods.com/a-c-and-heat-c...mplete-kit.html
76-914
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Jul 31 2020, 05:19 PM) *

Does anyone know which evaporator they're hiding in that console? I've got an LS so the alternator output isn't an issue for me. I'm limited by the physical space I have left to locate the evap unit.
Here's the eval unit I bought. The outlets in the above pics look suspiciously familiar: same unit turned on its end?

https://www.southernrods.com/a-c-and-heat-c...mplete-kit.html

They'd need to modify the condensate drain tray but possibly. beerchug.gif
Jonny Retrofit
QUOTE(Steve @ Jul 30 2020, 01:31 AM) *

Keith and I are playing around with different options all based on the Benling DM18A7 Electric compressor, aftermarket condenser, 911 condenser and off the shelf evaporators. Hopefully in a month we should be able to post something. Classic retrofit said they would sell this console evaporator separately. I am seeing the Benling electric compressor on evil bay for under $800.00. So if your a hobbyist the total solution is not that expensive if you piece mail it yourself. Do the math.... Benling compressor on the lowest setting is 40 amps + evaporator fans, condenser or oil cooler fans if your using a 911 condenser in front of your six oil cooler. A 2.7 alternator is 70 amps and a 3.2 alternator is 90 amps. With LED headlights, what else are you powering....??
This makes sense for a six conversion, for a four or water cooled power plant your better off with a standard belt driven compressor. Check out my blog for a picture of my condenser setup. The 911 condenser is about the length and height of a Mazda cooler, so you would need to modify your GT shroud to make it fit.


I have been emailing with Keith.

We started ‘playing’ with these compressors five years ago. What they don’t tell you is that the current used is not just proportional to compressor speed, it is drastically affected by system pressure which of course is related to ambient temperature.

It is not the case that low speed = 40A, high speed = 90A period. It varies wildly with ambient. Also, because the alternator output drops at idle, the voltage drops and the current rises which causes what we call the ‘death spiral’, which results in compressor shut off. In the race car world where these units have been used, it has taken cars out of races due to low voltage.

It took 2 years of development and testing to devise a robust software control strategy to safely manage the power required dynamically. Our ECU is always trying to minimise the power used against the cooling required ( which it does using temperature sensors to assess demand ). The ECU drives the compressor at variable speeds to regulate the current consumption. We are still fine tuning the software and we release software updates based on user feedback (thanks to our customers and our Arizona and Florida partners).

In a nutshell, What you are paying for is our blood, sweat and tears in developing a control system that allows the compressor to ‘play nice’, not drain your battery, not roast your alternator.

Although the compressor we supply might look like others available online, it is not the same unit.
76-914
QUOTE(Jonny Retrofit @ Aug 1 2020, 03:26 PM) *

QUOTE(Steve @ Jul 30 2020, 01:31 AM) *

Keith and I are playing around with different options all based on the Benling DM18A7 Electric compressor, aftermarket condenser, 911 condenser and off the shelf evaporators. Hopefully in a month we should be able to post something. Classic retrofit said they would sell this console evaporator separately. I am seeing the Benling electric compressor on evil bay for under $800.00. So if your a hobbyist the total solution is not that expensive if you piece mail it yourself. Do the math.... Benling compressor on the lowest setting is 40 amps + evaporator fans, condenser or oil cooler fans if your using a 911 condenser in front of your six oil cooler. A 2.7 alternator is 70 amps and a 3.2 alternator is 90 amps. With LED headlights, what else are you powering....??
This makes sense for a six conversion, for a four or water cooled power plant your better off with a standard belt driven compressor. Check out my blog for a picture of my condenser setup. The 911 condenser is about the length and height of a Mazda cooler, so you would need to modify your GT shroud to make it fit.


I have been emailing with Keith.

We started ‘playing’ with these compressors five years ago. What they don’t tell you is that the current used is not just proportional to compressor speed, it is drastically affected by system pressure which of course is related to ambient temperature.

It is not the case that low speed = 40A, high speed = 90A period. It varies wildly with ambient. Also, because the alternator output drops at idle, the voltage drops and the current rises which causes what we call the ‘death spiral’, which results in compressor shut off. In the race car world where these units have been used, it has taken cars out of races due to low voltage.

It took 2 years of development and testing to devise a robust software control strategy to safely manage the power required dynamically. Our ECU is always trying to minimise the power used against the cooling required ( which it does using temperature sensors to assess demand ). The ECU drives the compressor at variable speeds to regulate the current consumption. We are still fine tuning the software and we release software updates based on user feedback (thanks to our customers and our Arizona and Florida partners).

In a nutshell, What you are paying for is our blood, sweat and tears in developing a control system that allows the compressor to ‘play nice’, not drain your battery, not roast your alternator.

Although the compressor we supply might look like others available online, it is not the same unit.

Hows does it perform @ temps above 35C? Hi Way/ City? In Southern California traffic is stop n go. More stopping than going. Same goes for Austin, Dallas and Miama beerchug.gif
Jonny Retrofit
QUOTE

Hows does it perform @ temps above 35C? Hi Way/ City? In Southern California traffic is stop n go. More stopping than going. Same goes for Austin, Dallas and Miama beerchug.gif


Our system does not rely on 'ram air' for the condenser. We supply 6 phase alternators with a 75A idle output so stop/go is not really an issue.

Towards the end of this video I stop the car...

https://youtu.be/735lNeSgfGs
Steve
QUOTE(Jonny Retrofit @ Aug 3 2020, 05:15 AM) *

QUOTE

Hows does it perform @ temps above 35C? Hi Way/ City? In Southern California traffic is stop n go. More stopping than going. Same goes for Austin, Dallas and Miama beerchug.gif


Our system does not rely on 'ram air' for the condenser. We supply 6 phase alternators with a 75A idle output so stop/go is not really an issue.

Towards the end of this video I stop the car...

https://youtu.be/735lNeSgfGs

Jonny,
Curious for reference, what does a stock 3.2 alternator supply at idle?
GregAmy
There are effective ways of storing and managing vehicle voltage for limited applciations, such as auto racing. In SCCA Prod racing, for example, many of us run EFI on total loss systems that require consistent voltage; the solution is appropriate battery/capacitor capacity and Race Energy Performance's Total Discharge Controller.

https://raceenergyperformance.com/collectio...products/tdc-30

A similar design could be considered for management of the limited times that an electric A/C system may be used in low-RPM situations.

However, we're now getting so far into the pale for 50-yr-old, generally-limited-use classic cars, that I have to wonder where the cut off of the silliness should be... wink.gif
Steve
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Aug 3 2020, 06:24 AM) *

There are effective ways of storing and managing vehicle voltage for limited applciations, such as auto racing. In SCCA Prod racing, for example, many of us run EFI on total loss systems that require consistent voltage; the solution is appropriate battery/capacitor capacity and Race Energy Performance's Total Discharge Controller.

https://raceenergyperformance.com/collectio...products/tdc-30

A similar design could be considered for management of the limited times that an electric A/C system may be used in low-RPM situations.

However, we're now getting so far into the pale for 50-yr-old, generally-limited-use classic cars, that I have to wonder where the cut off of the silliness should be... wink.gif

agree.gif There are also battery isolators for RV/s, but then have to run another battery, which adds weight and space. I have seen 914's with seat warmers, electric mirrors, electric door locks and electric windows. Where does it end? You mine as well buy a modern car, like a Boxster. A nice hidden AC system like Classic Retrofit's system, would be a nice addition to our cars. Looking forward to see what they come up with.
76-914
The cabin temp got down to 77-78F in a fairly forgiving climate. I think the "Electric Cool-Aid" Acid Test (pun intended) will be established once Keith has his up and running. popcorn[1].gif
Jonny Retrofit
QUOTE(76-914 @ Aug 3 2020, 04:56 PM) *

The cabin temp got down to 77-78F in a fairly forgiving climate. I think the "Electric Cool-Aid" Acid Test (pun intended) will be established once Keith has his up and running. popcorn[1].gif


^ This is true but we are already ‘established’ in plenty of hot places.

The system has been around since 2017. We have over 350 systems shipped, that includes Texas, Florida, SoCal, Arizona, Carolinas in the US, but also Thailand, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Portugal, Australia and Abu Dhabi.

Patrick Motorsports in Arizona have had around 10 systems so far. Similar story for Parkhaus1 in Miami.

I fear Keith will run into the same issues we had 5 years ago if he uses the Benling compressor without any control.
Hoghead
QUOTE(Jonny Retrofit @ Aug 3 2020, 11:49 PM) *

QUOTE(76-914 @ Aug 3 2020, 04:56 PM) *

The cabin temp got down to 77-78F in a fairly forgiving climate. I think the "Electric Cool-Aid" Acid Test (pun intended) will be established once Keith has his up and running. popcorn[1].gif


^ This is true but we are already ‘established’ in plenty of hot places.

The system has been around since 2017. We have over 350 systems shipped, that includes Texas, Florida, SoCal, Arizona, Carolinas in the US, but also Thailand, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Portugal, Australia and Abu Dhabi.

Patrick Motorsports in Arizona have had around 10 systems so far. Similar story for Parkhaus1 in Miami.

I fear Keith will run into the same issues we had 5 years ago if he uses the Benling compressor without any control.


I am in Thailand and about to buy an AC system
Can you send me a PM with a local contact so that I can follow up
Coondog
Was at PMS yesterday for a little work and to get a update on there aircon 914 project. Wow is my only response. I didn’t take pics as I didn’t have permission from the owner and I was afraid to ask the cost. The battery was moved to the trunk and the unit sets where the battery tray was.

I think I will be there second customer for this..... idea.gif
Steve
QUOTE(Coondog @ Apr 8 2021, 10:04 AM) *

Was at PMS yesterday for a little work and to get a update on there aircon 914 project. Wow is my only response. I didn’t take pics as I didn’t have permission from the owner and I was afraid to ask the cost. The battery was moved to the trunk and the unit sets where the battery tray was.

I think I will be there second customer for this..... idea.gif

Why not put it in the front trunk? Where is the condenser located?
mepstein
When I talked to Johny about setting it up in a 914-6 he suggested the condenser in the right rear fender and the compressor under the trunk but above the right rear axle. No cutting involved and the lines were all kept short.
Cairo94507
@Coondog - Darn you. I am seriously looking forward to seeing your car once you pull that trigger.
Coondog
QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Apr 8 2021, 11:23 AM) *

@Coondog - Darn you. I am seriously looking forward to seeing your car once you pull that trigger.



Next year
rgalla9146

For me ?
Compressor up front, massive alternator, condenser RR fender in
front of tire (ventilated quarter in front of flare) , Behr 911 underdash evaporator /fan
unit, receiver dryer somewhere. All plumbed properly.
Voila !
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.