Greetings All!

I just recently dropped off my 2.0 (GA) case and 71mm crankshaft to get checked at a local machine shop in preparation for a rebuild. Today they called and said for align bore, decking the registers, polishing the crankshaft, and mocking up the assembly with fitted and numbered main bearings it would be 30 hours of work.

Does that sound reasonable? It's honestly a lot more than I expected and will add $$$ to my budget for this rebuild.

Should I look for another case, maybe a 1.7, that is in better condition or has already been prepped?

I'm not an expert builder and some things are worth paying for, but man that's a lot of money!

Thanks for any advice!

Does it need all that stuff? Does it not measure to spec or are you asking to have it done just to be sure. When I worked at the shop, micro polishing a crankshaft was ~$200-250. We generally didn’t align bore or deck the registers on the aluminum cases unless they were out of spec and tried not to rebuild mag cases unless there was a strong reason too. We only worked on 6 cylinder engine.

When I dropped the case off, I asked to have it checked for needing an align bore and registers decked. Today, the guy told me it needed those services. I have to trust the shop and their expertise, but I'm wondering if their time estimate for the work is in the ball park.

From what I've read, GA cases typically have fallen registers and have to be decked, so that's no surprise. The align bore...I don't know

Not that outrageous. Most machine shops price by the component job (line bore, deck, polish crank, etc.) not the hour. But on the whole, your talking about man hours just to do mock up work fitting, and measurement of bearings that you could be doing. The shop expects and deserves to get paid for their effrots.

Unless they do lots of setups for decking for example, you're goint to pay machinist time for a one off set up. You're talking 1-1 1/2 hour just to tram the head of the mill, put the case on the table. and get it mounted securely but yet without deforming the case that will then spring back when unbolted. Find the fly cutter, make sure it is set up well, and then do the cutting which is another 1/2 hour or so. Now unbolt that case half and do the other.

You get the idea, it all adds up.

I certainly don't begrudge anyone getting paid for their work. I appreciate highly skilled people who can do work I wouldn't know how to start.

This was just a sanity check, mostly. Thanks for your experienced input, gents!

I would check around. Some shops do it often and can charge less compared to specialty, one off work. Plus, a 914 case is cheap and easy to ship. Wrap it up well and then ziptie in a yellow and black plastic crate from a home store.

Hopefully I didn't imply that. Certainly didn't mean to. I do as much of my own machine work as I can. I have a a sense of what it would take me, but, I'll readily admit I'm not as efficient as a professional machinist that does machine work all day, every day. Even then, I don't have the tooling to do something like a line bore (yet . . .).

So may be a bit high, but not outrageous. I'd assume that will run you about $3k in labor.

As a benchmark you can look at a Raby engine at $20K and see why he's getting paid that amount . . . all realted to the man hours and machine work that it takes to build an engine like that. You're at $3k and you've only laid the foundation but haven't even put in the man hours to assemble, mock up, check fits and geometry, set up on dyno, run it in, etc.

In a mass produced world of cheap labor, it's easy to overlook how long it takes to do things. I do it all the time when I tell my wife it will take an hour and then I spend 3 on any given task.

I started prepping an engine last Friday.When I started, I had previously completed the dynamic balancing, which added another day onto things.

Just today I had all the work done for assembly, which will start tomorrow. I don't even keep track of the hours, because I don't bill by the hour. I propose the whole job as a flat cost. The time doesn't matter.
This one is a stroker, so that adds one day onto my work, generally speaking.

30 hours for a machine shop sounds about right, IF they are blueprinting the assembly, and also balancing the components, along with the other items that you posted.

Today it's a lot more than just building these engines. It's a full restoration effort, at the same time. If you have attention to detail, time to do these tasks can easily dip into the triple digits when it comes to hour count. That's why I don't keep track of it, I don't want to see the fact that I've been doing this for 28 years and I still don't make more than minimum wage.

We always used to laugh about the 40 hour book time to build a six. They must start the clock with all the shiny parts sitting on the bench, measured and pre-fitted.

I spent more than 40 hours cleaning my last six..

You missed a spot. Lol. That is purty.

Jake, thanks for your input on this. I added emphasis to your statement above because there was no balancing of components included in the estimate I was given. I'll call the shop again today and talk some more about the overall project. This one is a 2056, so no special clearancing needed. They also might be overestimating so I don't get sticker shock at the end.

I know what you mean about underestimating time. If days were 8 hours longer, I still would run out!

The last thing I want to do with this rebuild is go cheap on prep - or anything really. I plan to buy a camshaft kit from Type 4 store, heads from Len Hoffman, and already have 96mm NPR pistons from the previous (1988!) rebuild. Considering how long it's taken me to get to this point, I don't want to do it twice.

It just means I have to work more overtime

That should be in a museum of mechanical art! And your shop puts my shabby garage to shame! Gives me something to work towards, though.

And thanks for the picture of all the prepped parts - it gives me an idea of how to lay everthing out for assembly when the time comes

Jake shipped me these two TWIN PLUG engines about 20 yrs ago....



Oscar

Click to view attachment

Looks like a big box of candy.

WOW!

Man, that's a blast from the past.. One of them is still going strong, and was sold in a Speedster on BaT a few months ago. I am not sure what happened to the other one, do you know?
These were twin plug 2.6L, and the last big bore 103mm engines I built with iron cylinders. We were testing Nickies back then, and didn't have enough time on them to be used in a customer's engine.

Fast forward two decades, and I'm still doing them today, here's my current work bench..Now I do these for fun, to make extra coins to buy military vehicles.

If I ever did a big four, I would scrimp and save to buy one of Jake’s engines. The engine is costly. The decades of knowledge and experience is priceless.

Thanks.. I took a step back in time, and I'm doing these engines myself again. Just like I did when I started the place.
All my employees are working in the main facility, on modern Porsche engines.. Here, the newest thing I want to deal with is a 993, and even that is too new for me.

Not sure what to say....if it's just the bottom end 30 hours seems high, send the case to a shop set up for this work (below) and the crank and rods to a crank grinder/machine shop.

http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/vw/engin...se-service.html

...and since Jake posted some /6 porn here's my contribution, 3.0 twin plug that I've been driving all summer in my '74 conversion.
I bet with all the work from engine build plus all the work to convert it into a six with 5-bolt, tuning, sorting, tank, etc I'm way over 500 hours, maybe even close to 1000. Still not done this winter I want to do a front cooler and inner longs.

Made some progress today.. 2563cc for a 912E.

To .m.h and jake


Mad respect for not pumping water

Jake - would you share more pics of that engine room? It looks clean and functional.

I post Facebook Live videos of the clean room often. I just shared one this morning, you can check it out on the Raby's Aircooled Technology FB page, as a shared video.

I built this room when I moved into the new Raby Engine Development R&D facility 6 years ago. I originally didn't plan to build any customer's engines here; only do development work, and use the facility to host my Porsche engine classes. I just moved the original RAT engine dyno here a couple months ago, which completed the transition of all the Aircooled stuff into my own world.

I've had several clean rooms over the years, this one is the culmination of all those before it. I work in this one almost everyday, and still love it after 6 years.

I'll check out facebook. Thanks!
I'm rehabbing my workshop and while I don't need pro grade metal cabinetry, I like the clean look of everything in drawers and cabinets. No pegboard or open shelving for me.

I had these made by Ulti-mate. I also am not one for exposed storage of tools and etc.

Mark Henry, thanks for the advice and link. I have decided that I really can't afford the shop in question and need to take your advice about sending the case to a shop that works on them every day. Even with two-way shipping, it looks like going with EMW would save me a ton of money.

And I had no idea that this discussion would generate all the engine pics - you guys are my heroes!

Wow! Is the case coated with the same material as on the heads? I'm sure that is helpful for a stroker with more heat to dissipate.

I'm going to check out the RAT FB page, too.

No, the case is coated with Zinc Phosphate primer, and a fuel/ heat resistant enamel, as a two- step process. This paint and primer is what's used by Lycoming on their aircraft engines.
The cost to professionally apply thermal dispersant coatings to the crankcase are extreme, due to the insane level of masking that is required. I have done it, but the budget for this engine didn't include it.

We never have thermal concerns. All my engines utilize Nickies cylinders, and a well- proven combination, coupled to dyno optimization for ignition advance, and fuel enrichment.
It has been close to 20 years since I had someone report an overheating concern. In that case, he had re- set his own timing, and created the problem for himself.

I can't believe it's been mid-September since the last post in this thread. I decided to follow Mark Henry's advice and send the engine case to EMW. The shipping cost was more than the work! The bore was standard, so they did a first cut align bore, and then decked the registers and removed/tapped the gallery plugs.

I left the crank, pressure plate, flywheel, and cooling fan at the original machine shop for them to clean and balance. I'm not sure if I am satisfied with their work, so there may be another update on that.

The next steps are to procure a decent micrometer for measuring the crank journals and then ordering bearings. I still haven't decided whether to use the stock connecting rods or buy H-beams - and from where if so.

More to come. Thanks again to all who gave me advice and for the incredible pictures posted to this discussion.

New Empie rods that are supposedly better/lighter than H-Beam rods. I'm also using tool steel type 1 lifters and aluminum pushrods, etc. To keep valve train weight down in a 2.7 liter (4 cylinder) project I've got going (among many others).

https://www.aircooledvintageworks.com/produ...=32332313002029

But, if you want to go with the H-Beam rods, why not the new I-Beam Empis??

Cuz were working on T4's here ?

Cuz we're working on modifying a T4 with aftermarket parts to get a combination that will meet our goals?

Or you can always keep it bone stock .

T1 rod journals are larger and used by many T4 builders (and T1 lifters are lots lighter than T4 lifters).