It is good to be back on here! My son was given a super POS jeep as his first car from his uncle last February. After it was towed to my house, we stripped the Jeep down to its bare frame. The tub folded up like a burrito, and the frame wasn't too far behind. My brother had a 350 SBC engine married to some sort of Chevy transmission in this jeep. It was a frankenstein setup, so I decided that I would put this car back to all stock for the benefit of my son, since he isn't all that mechanical. Now he can go to any part store and get real parts for his car. After restoring this Jeep, I still have zero feelings for Jeeps. I'm happy it is done, and it was enjoyable working with my son on this over that past year.
I have been on the Jeep forums, and it is not as friendly as it is here, super glad to be home. My other brother had been keeping my 914 at his for the past few years, and it was towed to my house a few hours ago. I'm so ready to bring it back to its former glory.

Anybody have good luck with these easy 123 ignition dizzy's on a Ljet? I'll probably start with that purchase first.

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Fantastic to get to build a car with your child.
I did a 914, beetle, and jeep with my boys.
Just finished another keep build for plowing.
Jeeps just suck....in so many stupid ways.

Welcome back, go vacuum the shop floor, get the rust dust off everything and pull a new 914 project into that empty slot!!

Welcome back.

I’ve always liked Jeep’s so I’d say your son is a lucky man.
My son, knows my mechanical skill and bought himself a Honda.

Great work and smart move returning it to stock for him.

Tie your shoes Tim! Geterdone!

Hi Mark! It's been awhile buddy, hope all is well. How did the tach for your motorcycle turn out? I still have two of your 911 tachs that I need to get back to you!

My son is very excited about his Jeep. I think this is a terrible first car for a teenage driver to have. With that said, I think I have done everything I can to make it as safe as possible. In example, I removed the brake power booster and installed an aftermarket dual diaphragm brake power booster. I never knew they made such a thing! He receives his drivers license in a few weeks which scares me.

Yes, I need to do a monster clean in my garage. I currently have a roller that Garold sold me that will soon be getting flares and a LS4. Before that project, I will need to get my other 914 (74 1.8) back to a DD status. It's now in my garage and thawing out. This car was restored about ten years ago and was a great DD and absolutely beautiful. For whatever reason, my young niece didn't appreciate the glossy guards red and attacked it with golf clubs The red angered her as if she was a bull! Anyways, I'm excited to do some real work!

Well, sometimes you just need to shrug, say ok.
Might want to hide all golf clubs in the future?

Seriously, vacuum the floor.
You will be amazed.

Get the DD back....it will inspire you to do the LS4.

This post was discouraging. I just bought an old Jeep this morning.

On the bright side, Jeep parts are cheap and plentiful

The jeep wrangler Tj frames are crap. Had to replace frame parts in front of rear leaf springs and behind the front leaf springs. I was shocked how bad they rusted out.

Buck

I own a Jeep.....


Jeep stands for "Just Empty Every Pocket"

Jeep Wrangers are great . . . at one thing. Off-Road Use. Other than that they largely leave you shaking your head wondering what good they are on the street. 2008 JK.

I guess the other cool thing about Wranglers is there is the Jeep Wranger Wave that goes from owner to owner. The more gear you got (winch, lift, etc.) the bigger the wave. The only other car I've experienced that with is my 914.

Hmm . . . maybe more in common than I 1st thought and maybe explains why I own both.

The YJ frames are probably just as bad as the TJ frames, I ended up welding steel everywhere.
I never drove a jeep before this one, and we put a leaf spring kit that raised the car up a few inches. This Jeep is a rough ride, feels like the axles are welded straight to the frame. We have new 33" tires on it, drop the tire pressure down from 45psi down to 20psi, and it made a good improvement. I just don't know if this is normal for Jeeps or am I just too spoiled with modern cars and their suspension?

Yes it's normal. Yes you are spoiled by modern cars.

JK slightly better with coil springs that eliminate a lot of the problems of leaf springs which should have gone out of style with the covered wagon.

Leaf's are easy to lift but they are beyond ridiculous with respect to internal friction and their effect on ride harshness, evil hadling traits, etc. 33" tires aren't helping you a bit.

Do not run them at 20 psi at highway speeds.

I have a 2 wheel drive MJ. I used to drive it 80 mph on the freeway, but after experiencing "Death Wobble" at speed, I stay in the right lane and never exceed 60-65 mph. Leading arm suspension should have gone away n the 1920s, but it was built on this truck in 1988.

For those of you who reading this, Death Wobble is a notorious front end issue with Jeeps, and other straight axle vehicles. The front end gets worn, then one front wheel hits a bump, and the front end starts to shake. The axle keeps trying to tow out the front wheels, oscillating back and forth between the two wheels. It feels like the whole truck is coming apart, and it will tear up the front suspension and the wheels.

I broke a few lug studs and ruined two steel wheels the first time it happened. And I have been off track in a 914 at speed, but never felt like I was in the "bunny zone". After "death wobble" in my Jeep, I felt like I had to extract the seat cover from my personal exhaust port.

Yes, this death wobble is talked about frequently on the Jeep forums and it does scare me. I installed a dual shock steering stabilizer in hopes that this won't happen. I also ordered another leaf spring kit called Old man emu, in hopes to soften this Jeep, hopefully this is the last thing that I'll do on this car.
I was caught off guard with people waving when I took the jeep out on a shake down test. I think another Jeep guy honked at me for now waiving.

We have two Jeep's. Pretty much always have at least a Jeep and old Bug.

Death Wobble is a Wranger "feature" . It let's you know that something in the front end has worn out and that it needs the root cause to be identified and fixed. Not unique to Wranglers. Really any vehicle with a live front axle is going to be prone to it.

Had it on my JK at 60,000 miles. Worn lower ball joints. Annoying. For sure. Scary, yup for plenty of people. But not aptly named. If there were real deaths occuring you can be assured the various class action lawsuits would have paid out big time but yet they have not. Likewise, all vehicles with solid front axles would be banned which also won't happen.

Lifting your vehicle increases the liklihood of it occuring. Big tires increase the liklihood. Typical lift kits don't compensate for the reduced front axle caster that comes about due to the lift. The higher you lift, the less caster you will have unless you're using adjustable linkages, and proper length driveshafts. It's actually a pretty complex phenomena.

Steering stabilizer won't really prevent it. It is an uncontrolled ressonance and you can't possibly put enough steering damper on it to control a resonance. As a down side, the steering dampers mask some of the earliest signs of it which then means the offending components continue to wear until things get really bad. Eventually the forces involved will overwhelm the steering damper and now you have wobble even worse than you would have had you fixed it early!

If anyone out there is getting this on your Wranglers. Get it fixed properly. Deal with it before it gets worse over time which it will as whatever worn component continues to wear.

Some of the lift kits have adjustable leading/trailing arms with jam nuts. Make sure the nuts stay tight or there’s yet another place for slop to take place and induce the wobble.

This doesn’t apply to the OP because he has leaf springs, of course.

For your son,
New
Front wheel bearings
Tie rods
Track bar
Steering links
Ball joints, upper and lower
Steering shaft( inspect and replace)
Tighten steering box

Rich

Thanks Rich, and yes the whole goal was to make this safe for my son to drive. It originally had a 3" body lift kit when it came to me. I removed the body lift kit, and decided to go with a 2.5" suspension lift kit, figuring it might keep the center of gravity lower vs the body lift kit. Completely new brake system, new steering shaft, a dropped pitman arm to help with the steering geometry after the lift kit went in. I installed a SYE and a CV driveshaft to help with drivetrain vibrations. I clocked the differentials with shims and added an engine lift spacer. Steering box does feel pretty good, never looked into how to adjust tightness in it, but will research it. I did stiffen up the frame in the area to where the steering box mounts to. Tie rods and steering links are new, along with sway bar links. I did remove both track bars, it was a sticky note on the forum to do so. I had the car up to 70mph and didn't feel any adverse effects for not having the track bars installed.
I did not install new wheel bearings or ball joints, it's one of the few things that I didn't replace on this Jeep. I'll dig deeper into that when I replace the leaf springs in a few weeks.

Not lovin' this. Track bars are there to provide lateral location on the axle. Sure I've seen guys remove them for off-road use trying to get more suspension articulation for RTI but I can't see this beeing a good or safe thing to do for on road use.

OEM's don't engineer a suspension with extra parts.

This is exactly the way I felt at the beginning of this project, but further reading and the mass consensus of folks saying to trash can them, along with testimonials of people saying it made their DD Jeep a safer ride convinced me to take them off.

This is one guy's take for not having them
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I still have these track bars in the corner of the garage. I'm still trying to put a few hundred miles on this Jeep before my son gets his license in a few weeks. Other than it driving like a tank, everything else feels right. If it gets squirrelly when driving, I'll happily put them back on.

Well if it's on the Intrawebz . . .

Not sure how to put this but if the person that posted that was ever deposed as an engineer in a court of law relating to an fatal accident, it wouldn't end well.

Post appears to be primarily concerened about track bar binding with articulation. Sure in low speed off-road scenarios I get it. On road use will not result in anywhere near the amount of articulation that would begin to bind on a properly maintained suspension.

Other factors at play:

Failure modes: Engineers are held to account for what happens if a leaf spring breaks. Are you really comfortable depending on the anti-roll bar to locate the axle as the whole body drops to one side? Don't think leaf springs break? . . . they sure have on occasion. Solid engineering takes failure modes into account.

Emergency handling: Not a Jeep strong point by any measure but as an chassis engineer that has certified vehicles to be safe to various regulations, I'll say that I would be surprised if it would pass muster without track bars.

Other belt and suspenders: Since about 2008 Electronic Stability Control has been standard on Jeeps. Primarily to prevent rollovers which are so common with these high Cg vehices. A TJ doesn't have this belt and suspenders to keep a vehicle from getting to far out of control. I personally wouldn't want to be near a sideways TJ with lots of lateral force on the axles without a track bar.

Competitive landscape. Even as the post suggest, others at lest put some sort of travel limiter in there if not an actual track bar.


I thought I'd post a funny snippet.

"Jeep added them to the YJ because Nader's boys were attacking jeeps because of roll over issues, so I should add, if you plan on driving your jeep on the street at 40 MPH and then turning your steering wheel left and right as fast as you can (this is how Nader showed jeeps roll over), keep your track bar, or better yet buy a Porsche" (empahsis mine )

The problem is this maneuver that is described is a very simple emergency lane change at 40 mph. I guess if you don't mind rollover risk . . . and value maximum off-road articulation which is only needed for rock crawling . . . then remove the track bar. Can't disagree there.

https://www.wranglerforum.com/threads/to-tr...ack-bar.361065/

Decide what you will, but, as someone that has done chassis engieering - there were no "extra" parts put in there.

You mention that you will put them back in if something gets squirrely. I'll only say that if it gets really squirrely in an emergency handling scenario, you may not get a 2nd chance to put them back in. There is a reason emergency handling developement is done with outriggers on vehices . . . to prevent the vehicle from going up on two wheels. I'll pretty much guarantee that your son won't have the right instincts to put it back down if it goes up on two.

Sorry to be so passionate about this. Jeeps are dangerous enough. No need to make them more dangerous for a novice driver by taking out the track bars.

I read that thread back in March and also laughed at the buying a Porsche comment. This seems to be the holy grail topic on the Jeep forums, and I have read hundreds of them. I do appreciate the advice, and will most likely reinstall them when the new leaf springs come in the mail. Are you a automotive chassis engineer? Do all cars with leaf springs have track bars?

Yes, I've been doing automotive enginering for about 25 years. Primarily chassis, brakes, and dynamics. Throw in a few years racing of both cars and motorcyles.

All cars with leaf springs do not have track bars especially early domestic iron.

However, as designs evolved, and as safety standards have too, some sort of lateral control device has become the norm. Track bar, Watts link, travel limiter, somthing is there to control lateral forces and to keep the axle located laterally besides the leaf springs. The higher the Cg, the more a track bar makes sense from a suspension design standpoint.

Please keep in mind Jeeps are unique animals that are high Cg. Things that would have been the norm for a 1950's era car just won't do for a Jeep with it's high Cg. Likewise, what is wise for off-road use isn't for on-road use. Very different operational domains.

Lots of old 4x4's like old Jeeps and the orignal short wheelbase, narrow track,Toyota Landcruiser, etc., they were barely capable of 70 mph and certainly wouldn't meet current emergency handling requirements. Not to say they are bad but there is an element of due care that goes with high Cg and live axle suspensions. Most people quickly forget this and think nothing of tooling down the road at 80 mph in a Jeep JK or the like.

They make adjustable TBs as well.

I feel your pain....... I have been wrenching on my wife’s Jeep all week. It seems to be a never ending “upgrade” . Put larger tires on a stock sport JLU. Then the car looked like it needed to be lifted as the wheel wells seemed too tight. After the lift was installed, then it needs steps to get my wife into the Jeep as now it is too tall. I did the lift over the weekend and now installing retractable steps this week. LED front bulbs might look better, So in they go. Crate that the lift came in became a base for the dogs bed.

This needs to stop as money for future Porsche projects is disappearing quickly.

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My son wants to trade you jeeps! I envy you for doing your lift in a weekend. I spent a weekend just trying to get a few rusty bolts out from the front and rear leaf springs!

Thank you for all the information. Would adding wheel spacers do much for lowering the cg?

No, Cg height is unaffected by wheel spacers. Spacers will add track width which is a good thing for countering high Cg but spacers have their own drawbacks.

NHTSA uses a very simple calculation called static stability factor:

A vehicle's SSF is calculated using the formula SSF=T/2H, where T is the "track width" of the vehicle and H is the "height of the center of gravity" of the vehicle.

https://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/R...20the%20vehicle.

There are cons that come with wheel spacers but I'm not going to lie, people do it all the time:

1) Added load to bearings will wear them out earlier. Can be offset with more frequent maintenance and replacment. Last time I replaced the front bearings on my JK they were about $250 for the pair so I'd rather not do that too often.

2) Changes the steering scrub radius. Makes the steering heavier. Jeep steering is so overboosted that most people don't really notice or complain.

3) Spacers really aren't the best and/or safest way to widen the track especially when you start talking about 1" or more. Better to do it via wheel back spacing but again there tons of spacer kits out there. If there is money to be made, someone will sell it.

Honestly, the most important thing to do with a Jeep Wranger is to respect that it is a high Cg vehicle. It doesn't drive or handle like any other car or truck on the road, and needs to be driven appropriately. Scares the hell out of me when I see people tooling down the road in a 4" lifted Wranger doing 80 mph. It's all OK until it isn't. People forget what they are driving. ESC has really helped. I rember constantly seeing SUV's rolled over in the 90's. Rarely see it anymore.

Wranger in Morocco Sahara Desert trip that I was on many years ago.

As a sports car guy 1st and foremost, I have a love/hate relationship with Jeeps


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Wow!!!! Now that looks like fun.

Old Sportscar = Great way to end up broken down on a twisty mountain road with access to tow truck.

Old Jeep = Great way to end up broken down way the hell and gone from any sort of help.

Hard to disagree with that. But sometimes, those are the moments that make life interesting.

Had it covered.


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I’ve always liked Jeep’s. My dad is turning 86 and this is his daily driver

I grew up with playing in the desert with this '93. It still goes along, so I get to share it with my boys.


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aussie jeep

get real.

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