This factory six race car is up for auction on PCA Market.

https://www.pcarmarket.com/auction/1970-por...4-6-race-car-1/

Looks to be a nicely done car.

No affiliation, just thought I would share.

Clay

What does this mean:



Selling with a 914/6 VIN.. but this seems to make it seem less 914/6 and maybe a vin swap? I'm sure there is a clear explanation.

That said, looks like a fun car!

It clearly says VIN swap. This will be interesting for sure.

VIN swap. Borderline illegal but depends on the state specific laws regarding title. Shady at best in my opinion if it were a street car.

Not so much an issues for a race car chassis. Personally, I wouldn't consider it a legit, original 914/6 in any sense. At this point it is a /6 conversion.

Since 914 VIN is only stamped in the passenger front wheelhouse, technically, that is the car according to most state laws.

The nuance is in how much of the original car was saved? The whole front end? The whole front right quarter? The wheel house only? Just the VIN stamping itself?

A VIN swap only is illegal. The rest depends on your morals and state laws.

My apologies.. I didn't see that in the write up.. So, why list it as a 914/6 if its a VIN swap. My guess is the VIN swap was done to make it Vintage racing eligible? And then sell the books and market it as a "factory 6" if it really isn't?

I think it's a vin swap but at least the seller is being upfront about the car so the buyer can make an informed decision. Many valuable and historic cars have been "rebodied".
Also, I wonder if there is any legal issue if you don't register the car. Vins are really only for the different tiers of government to keep track of road cars. There is no law -(that I know of) that says an off road vehicle/race car, needs a vin.

That is the whole key to this transaction. Transparency is a good thing.

Where it gets shady is when next owner decides to convert back to street use and "forgets" the history, and represents as original 914/6.

Generally speaking, sanctioning body regs require equipment to meet the VIN. It is very common for racers to build cars with the desired equipment and then find a suitable VIN for it.

It is not "illegal" if the car will be race-only, however its "compliance" depends on the sanctioning body regs and how it's built.

These days, most historics groups (even SVRA) are looking sideways at builds, and almost nobody seems to do any compliance checks other than safety. I could build a "474" chassis and slot in a 3.2L and they'll let me play with the 911s, thanks-for-your-entry-fee.

Some still cling to the "sanctity" of the regs, but that's unusual these days. But how will you ensure compliance, anyway? Who's going to tear down a hisotirc car's engine to ensure it's a 2L versus a punched-out 2.4?

That said...I suggest that the VIN (and title, if included) is worth half the value of the car itself. Theseus' Ship, and all that...

Looking at the maintenance book..

Car is a 1970. Early ish vin at number 460.. and didn't sell till October 70 as no doubt the 71's were starting to come in and crowd the lot. Delivered 10/10/70. Another sign that these cars just didn't sell too well when new.

I know its just me being a bit anal, but is there explicit comment in the ad about the VIN swap? I am not a member, so maybe its in a comment discussion I can't see.

Ad says "205/50 tires"... pics clearly show 225/50 tires.

All that said.. I still think this looks like a fun car.

neat car
and nice build.

but technically a conversion car in that the chassis started life in that form.

I posted it to the classifieds last week, and Mark noted the chassis swap. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=353740

Like Racer, I can't find any specific reference to whether the VIN was swapped or not. Or when. If it is and remains a race car, then no worries... but as others say, one or two owners down the road are more likely than not to present this as a genuine 6.

To be fair to the seller though, he's clear about the build, it's offered on bill of sale only, and shows no images of the VIN tag or stampings. If none exist, it's fine and will never return to the street. Looks like a nice build that would be fun to track.

For posterity: 9140430460

In the screen shot below. Rebodied

Click to view attachment

@Racer

“During the build, the original chassis was deemed to have had too extensive corrosion to be a safe platform, and a replacement chassis was sourced from another 1970 914. Some of the original 914-6 body panels were moved over to the new chassis along with genuine steel fender flares and a lightweight fiberglass hood, trunk lid, and removable targa top”

I don't know about other states, but here in Texas, the official word is "The part of the chassis that has the VIN number stamped in it is the legal chassis. The rest is attached to it."

So if you keep the whole right front inner fender intact, then that is the car. The rest are just parts attached to the car. Like swapping an engine or transmission.

Legally, in Texas, you could buy a 914-6 that consisted of just the right front inner fender and the windshield VIN plate. Then get a -4 chassis of the same year, and you would, for legal purposes, have a "real 914-6" chassis once you replaced the complete right inner fender. It is not a re-body according to the state of Texas, it is a chassis repair.

There is a big difference in what is legal, and what is the right thing to do when selling a car. I would want to know that had been done, and I believe it would put a lot of shade on that "914-6" chassis. I think you would want to disclose that it is a repaired chassis using a 4 cylinder donor.

I think they did it right with this one. They repaired the chassis and they are disclosing the fact. And for a race car that will never see the street, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.

Clay

In New York , 1970 is pre-title, the registration is transferable. 1973 is first year of titles.

I think what is just irking me is that its being listed and sold, with a 914/6 vin and paperwork, when clearly its a rebodied car. That it is a racecar is a saving grace, but over time, stories fade and the next buyer wont have the full story and it becomes drama like that Seinfeld fake 356 Carrera!

That said, even VIN numbers have value.. I've seen and read of many cars "restored" using just a vin plate.. or engine.. or seemingly less!


This is why out of 8 rare Ferrari's built, there are only 26 left

... for the right price. Certainly not paying -6 prices...

Click to view attachment

Registered...

Seller's post answers the most important question, and it's not good IMHO. VIN swaps are illegal nearly everywhere for a reason.

What if your car is a 6 and the right corner is crushed? You need to replace the wheelhouse. Is it ok to the purest here to continue to call the car a 6 or does that erase the car as 6 and it becomes nothing of value?

The fact is there is only 3100ist factory 6 cars built. Over the years they were wrecked and rusted. If a guy owns a factory 6 and chooses to restore it in a manor using "Like - Kind - and Quality" parts how does it matter how many parts are needed. It is still a restoration or repair of a rightfully owed factory 6. How you choose to value it personally does not change the fact that when a limited production car becomes rare enough and either rusted or damaged enough (or both) it become worth the investment to repair the car. Sometimes it takes a lot of parts, sometimes it doesn't.

I don't think so. Still has value as /6.

What would probably happen under Michigan state law would be that the vehicle probably would get an assembly title or potentially a new VIN assigned after that . . . if the letter of the law were followed. I'm sure there are plenty of shady people that would also just cut out the wheelhouse VIN and paste it into the new wheelhouse too - which would be illegal. A repair shop or dealer that got caught doing this would likely lose their licesnse.

But given that /6 door jamb compliance sticker would still be in place, along with Karman tag, combined with window VIN tag, and maybe a slightly crushed & crumpled /6 headlamp tag, I would suspect next potential owner would have enough of the story to accept what had happened.

And of course, transparency about the accident and subseqent repair would be expected right?

Value of the /6 could then be assessed on merits of what was left and how the work was done. Still a /6, but, no longer "original".

Well, there is the windshield vin and the build plate in the door jam. Nether of which it seems this car has, since, well, its been rebodied.

And then again, there are cars built up from just VIN plate. The value is in the VIN, and I would presume that the reason this car was rebuilt was because it started life out as a 6. Its also possible that the desire to build a 914/6 racecar and needing the 914/6 VIN to be allowed for the mods done?.. ie, can't build a 4 into a 6, but had to start with a 6?

I would liken it to this analogy:
"Look here's the ax George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree.. all original, except the handle has been replaced 4 times and the blade twice." Would you call that the original ax?

In the end, this car is a mutt.. and therefore perfect as a track car. It has value as a racecar and as a sum of its part. To me the rebodying muddies value as its not the original 6 chassis that left the factory and was modified for racing.. its a 4 chassis that's been badged a 6 for racing.

Wow! I didn't realize this thread would generate this kind of discussion.


I personally know of a 356 Cabriolet that came from the factory with the Carrera twin cam motor that was so rusted that it only had about 5 to 6 inches of body left below the door tops. Nothing left of the pan, and even the bottom of the dash was rusting away. But the all the VIN tags and ID numbers were present, as was the engine and transmission cases with all the matching numbers. It was "restored' using a donor car for the missing parts. The 356 Cabriolet Carrera is so rare, that it was accepted to do that to keep it around. It was sold as a real 356 Cabriolet Carrera, and for big money.

I personally helped restore a 55 Chevy Bel-Air convertible that was nothing but a frame and convertible body when we started. All of the rest of the parts came from a donor 55 Chevy sedan.

Does it make either of those a mongrel, or less real? That is for the buyer to decide.

Clay

Car did not meet reserve. . . . still available!

This has been a philosophical discussion within automotive and aviation restoration circles (among many others) for decades.

It's a concept that has been discussed for millenium and has not been resolved (Theseus' Ship):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
https://open.library.okstate.edu/introphilo...hip-of-theseus/

One can even argue that since your skin cells are replaced every 2-3 weeks (and your blood every few days, and your bones every ~10 years) that you aren't the same person you were last month.*

A similar philosophical argument arose during the Star Trek days: since your matter is turned into energy by the transporter and that energy is beamed down to the surface of a planet and recreated as matter, are you really the same person you were "up there"? And if you were accidentally perfectly duplicated by the transporter, which one is the "real you"?

So this will not get resolved here.

In the end, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, and has the original duck's personal identification information. It's a duck.

How would you prove otherwise?

Beer.

*But your brain doesn't generally regenerate as you age. So if you can remove the brain and put it into a whole other body, are you the same person? Is the brain the "VIN" of the human world?

Edit: and, given we're talking about a race car...we've experienced similar philosophical discussions in creating prep regulations.

Take the Porsche 935 as an example; Group 5 regs started out as modifications to production cars and the 935 is generally accepted as a derivation of the street-going 911.

But is it? As we bgan to prep the street 911 for racing use, in the interest of speed and safety we piece-by-piece upgraded or replaced bits: a lightened panel here, a widened fender there, upgraded drivetrain bit here, bigger brakes there. We started with installing a rollcage only later to expand that cage to encompass drivetrain and suspension parts, such that we could cut away pretty much many remaining production chassis panels (to make things lighter, of course).

During all this we had to "retain" the stock roof and windshield. But "retain" is a philosophical concept, for as once things were all said and done all we did was obtain a 911 roof and windshield from Porsche and build a bespoke race car around it.

So was it really a 911 street car? Was the roof its "VIN" (even though they all had unqie serial numbers)? How much of a 911 had to be there in order to presume it's a 911?

Wasn't too long after that that we simply tossed that ridiculous premise and allowed full-up prototypes; see 956/962. Evolution of thought is a wonderful thing, and it's interesting to look back at how you got there.

This is also how our SCCA Sedan category evolved into bespoke tubeframe-chassis Grand Touring cars. A added tube here, a chassis snip there...and pretty soon we don't even bother starting with a Corvette, we just build a chassis from scratch and toss Corvette-looking body panels at it (see also: NASCAR).

More beer.

I have done lots of late model builders. The state only gets involved if insurance deems the vehicle a total loss. Otherwise they have no control over old cars undergoing restoration. these discussions always seem to come down to what the state laws are. But the state does not control what type of a repair a shop does for a restoration. There is no recertification process or structural engineer that checks to see if the integrity of the chassis was restored. There is no state law that governs what you do to repair a car with parts from another car in the restoration business. There is if you are doing a late model builder. You need all the receipts and the car is inspected before a stamped title is issued. the car in many states carries the rebuilt stamp for it's entire existence until the end of it's useable life.

Then the issue arises. What if a late model Porsche was rebuilt. Then over time the value of the car far exceeded what it was worth at the time it was deemed a total loss by it's market value vs the cost to repair? Should the stamp be removed? Based on current value it would never have received the rebuilder stamp.

I beg to differ. VIN swapping is illegal in Michigan and many other states. VIN swapping is not a "repair". There are laws that govern when a VIN is given a Salvage title, an Assembly title, or a clean, clear, normal title.

I may be particulary sensitive to this topic because I was once caught up in a used car sale of a 914/6 that turned out to be a VIN swap that was not disclosed. I was fortunate in getting the dealer to take it back about 1 hour after the sale. I could not determine if the VIN was swapped into a /4 or whether it had been swapped between two /6's. Someone went out of their way to try to hide the VIN swap. Title was never transfered to me and I can only wish I still had VIN detail on that car. Hopefully it has been wrecked or rotted by now.

VIN swaps happen, and when they happen, they are fraudulent.

You called it a swap. Others may call it a restoration of a rare car. How much of the original car needs to be retained before you would consider it a fraud?

Really doesn't matter what I call it. Laws define it. Though to your original point, law isn't terribly good at preventing it. Surprise!

I do agree the way it was done (with full disclosure) for this race car for all the resons previously stated. That way, each party to the transaction can decide for themselves what it is worth as it was done.

The real issue is what happens to that car 10 years from now and whether both parties to the tranaction at that time will still have the relevant information from which they can make an informed decision.

As always - Buyer Beware.

Is there some kind of important difference that I don't see between starting with a basket case 914/6 body and buying up every piece of sheetmetal that Restoration Design makes to stitch together a new car versus getting basically the same if not more original sheetmetal from a donor body? How little of the original needs to be replaced for it to still be legit?

That is my point. The law frowns on guys stealing cars and swapping vins. We are restoring cars not swapping vins on stolen cars.

If you legitimately own a car and purchase a donor legally and use parts to complete a restoration where is the fowl? In the end you save a limited production car with common parts made at the factory. Not that reproduction parts are any less legitimate.

Lots of ways to look at it. I say if you do not have the tolerance it takes to save what is left of an otherwise dwindling number of rare cars don't get involved in it.

I think we are talking about opposite ends of the spectrum.

One is an honest restoration.

The other end of the spectrum is FRAUD. Pasting a 914/6 VIN into a 914/4 body and deceptively trying to pass it off as a rare car with with upwards of $50k of "value" difference between them. What was rare was the VIN. The sheetmetal on the other hand is very common.

Now the question about value of that VIN comes down to all sort of intangables that some buyers value and others don't. To some, it might matter that the car was built up in final assembly by Porsche vs. the more common build up by VW.

As with most truly rare things, provenance matters and has a value. An attempt to fake that provenance in an attempt to deceive is known as fraud.

Legality aside, I think full disclosure, regardless of what is done, sets my mind at ease.

I realize there is the argument- what happens when the next guy doesn’t disclose. Well that’s a good point but i only control my own actions and don’t live my life worrying what the next guy will do.

This is just me, I’m not trying to tell others what to do.

It doesn't matter what "people call it". There's always an agenda, and it usually is biased towards benefiting the seller.

For me the difference is pretty clear:

- Take a rusty/crashed tub and replace as many parts as needed = OK
- Take a nice tub and cut out the VIN tag and weld in another VIN tag = Fraud


To me there is NO gray area here, no matter how much some would like there to be



PS: Not talking about you personally here Rick, just trying to make a point

No worries Andy. Just posing some scenarios that seem to get crossed up with the intent of the law and the intent of a party in the business of restoration. Personally I never clipped a car ( two halves of two different cars as builders) Saw some done that way. Not for me. And I am not referring the the Limo. That thing was a purely fun idea.

It does amuse me when I see the cheerleaders raving about some rusted hulk sectioned 6 ways to Sunday and built from a couple dozen cars and that is somehow a restored car... Makes me chuckle. No knowledge of structural integrity or crush zones. Just add some plate steel where ever you think it needs it.
Then I see the flame squad burning down a car that they would never purchase because it has the wrong filler neck on the oil tank.

agree

in regard to the car for sale.
the tub should have retained its 4 vin.
the mechanical parts from the 6 installed.
the vin tags from the terminal 6 shell put in an envelope.
the car driven and used for its intended purpose, going fast on a track.
when sold all there for what it is.
then it would actually be thesius's ship (see GregAmy post above).
thats what thesius's ship is, or at least what my training told me it was.
it would be what it actually is - rather than having to be informed what it is.

the same argument as thesius's ship goes for japanese temples which are famously reconstructed entirely at set intervals in time.

people forget the J don't think the reconstructed temple is the same temple.
they think its a reconstruction or new version of the same idea. its the idea that stays eternal, not the object.

we in the west have a more convoluted sense of where the original is.
we think its in the object, not the idea. we could be wrong? but the problem for the 914/6, is it is now a "art" object with value as a commodity. arbiters of value have stepped in. experts etc. in that world, the above car is a fake, a fraud, a reconstruction, etc et al. period.

the seller is not calling it the real thing. he is calling it the car to go out and do some flogging in. but to do that, he has had to make a "fake". kind of paradoxical? be interesting to know if he had to disclose that to racing authorities, its all a bit absurd?

you would never be able to put this car on the road in australia.
transferring vins is a crime.
the cops and registration authorities don't split hairs about what percentage of the chassis has been retained. like all authorities, they don't argue.
by disclosing the information the seller has, in order to be honest, said information would prohibit the registration of the car for road use. and if you the buyer, knowing this information didn't disclose it at time of road registration, the crime would transfer to you. if you get caught, you probably lose the car, it gets seized, crushed etc. you get charged etc. at best its off the road forever on the record. its a catch-22.
but take it to a race track only and use it, or keep it in a cupboard, no problem, no one cares so long as its not stolen.

thank god i am poor and own a four. there is no $ motivation or technical racing reason to transfer a vin number on a 4. ............maybe in the future people might start faking/remaking 73/74 2.0s? who knows. so long as they are still around getting driven

FWIW -- awesome thread. Good discussion going on that has been fueled by 914/6's metoric rise in pricing for the original (and not so original) survivors.

In the end, cars with “stories” will always be worth less, until the story is left untold, or when the original is so scarce that storied cars rise to fill the void. Like we’ve seen on some 4s, there comes a point where some original 4s will fetch more than a storied 6. The cycle perpetuates. The issue is when disclosure is not made.

i look forward to the day when all the versions are valued.

an original car, to be honest, is of true historical technological value as a genuine museum piece. its like looking at the apollo 11 command module.
how was it done. what did they do to weld it? etc etc.
one day we will have forgotten how america got to the moon - and they f$cken well did.
the only way you will know is to access the ruin, ie the junk nasa has stacked up down there at the johnson space centre in houston. my favourite place.
when i was there circa 90, through contacts, i got to view a moon ready LM that was never sent. its hanging in an exhibition space down at cape canaveral now. blew my tiny miniature antipodean mind.

the car being discussed here is totally japanese except for one thing, the compulsion to shift the vin numbers. in japan they would probably worship the act of transferring the mechanicals to another body without shifting the tattoos. you cannot move the skin tattoos in japan. but the idea has been kept eternal?

where we f%ck up, and its just my dumb opinion as a dopey aussie is we worship the original for all the wrong reasons. the mantra seems to be "its original".
yeah, so what?
you only need an original if you want to access the tech or technique of how they did it when they did back in the 70s.

this car for sale is a good car, its a samurai sword?
except for one mistake.

way too many DB's in the world trying to pull scams