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mb911
With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.
914e
QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 02:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.


I have never planned on selling a car. I keep them till they are not worth fixing or I just don't use them any more. At these prices just wait three weeks and it will be worth fixing.
mb911
QUOTE(914e @ Aug 16 2021, 01:07 PM) *

QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 02:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.


I have never planned on selling a car. I keep them till they are not worth fixing or I just don't use them any more. At these prices just wait three weeks and it will be worth fixing.



Same here. But man is it a bubble or the new norm?
windforfun
QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 02:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.


Selling can be a hassle. This is why most people trade in their cars. Besides, my 914 has low milage, is beautiful, & is fun to drive. Do you need the money?
Optimusglen
I made an agreement with the wife that this one stays laugh.gif But that's the reason this one gets a 6 swap.
Superhawk996
QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 05:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.


Seems good in theory. The problem is the cost to build the next one will go up due to inflation.

Yesterday’s $100 parts are today’s $500 parts and are soon to be $750 or $1000 parts. Same for services like paint jobs, etc.

All depends if you an optimist or a pessimist as to what happens next - inflation continues or economy contracts and inflation rate cools off.

Don’t get lost in dollar pricing. Prices aren’t rising - the value of the dollar is declining. A set of used struts is still a set of used struts. They just cost more in 2021 than they did in 1987.
windforfun
Clean stock 914's will continue to increase in value. It's a classic that most old farts like me can truly appreciate. Besides, most of us old farts have lots of money (except me). 8^)
mb911
QUOTE(windforfun @ Aug 16 2021, 01:15 PM) *

QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 02:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.


Selling can be a hassle. This is why most people trade in their cars. Besides, my 914 has low milage, is beautiful, & is fun to drive. Do you need the money?



No but want to buy a rental and have a 928 and another 914 waiting for some love. Probably won't do anything but it would be hard to turn away a big offer.

That's said I really have no idea what my car is worth. The sum of the parts is worth more than the chassis.
Cairo94507
The day someone comes up to me and hands me the keys to their '71 246 Dino GTS in trade for my car, I will consider that deal. Until then, ain't happening. I love my car and every time I walk out to the garage and see it sitting there or whenever I turn the key, I just love it all the more. beerchug.gif
Root_Werks
QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 02:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.



Bingo for me, not even done redoing the 914-6 conversion I bought. What a mess. Not doing this again.
SKL1
I've had my '71 since new and it will always stay in the family. Hopefully my two grandsons will be enjoying long after I'm gone...

Ditto with my '73 which belonged to a dear friend of mine- I've had it for over 20 years and it was completely restored to better than new.

I have two boys who inherited the car gene and they'll each get one someday, but hopefully not too soon!! smile.gif



This just in- a really nice adriatic blue '71 FOUR CYLINDER just went for 41K on BAT!
ClayPerrine
Because...

Jeff Besos, Elon Musk, and Bill Gates could combine every penny they have, and it still would not be enough to buy my 4.0L six conversion car. I am NOT selling one of my children.

Yes, it is that simple to me.

Yes, I am stupid....

Betty feels the same way about our cars.


Clay
mb911
QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Aug 16 2021, 02:34 PM) *

Because...

Jeff Besos, Elon Musk, and Bill Gates could combine every penny they have, and it still would not be enough to buy my 4.0L six conversion car. I am NOT selling one of my children.

Yes, it is that simple to me.

Yes, I am stupid....

Betty feels the same way about our cars.


Clay



Clay and a few others have owned and driven your cars for years and are like kids. The current car I have yes love it but not in the same way I would if I were in the same situation as you.

It's just hard for me to see something like the most recent conversion sell for 95k and say to myself what if? Regardless mine is not going anywhere just yet. Drove it again today. Just wonderful to drive.
mepstein
At my house, everything is for sale for the right price. biggrin.gif
Superhawk996
QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 05:26 PM) *



That's said I really have no idea what my car is worth.


Really only one way to find out for sure. Put up for auction with your minimum reserve.

It either sells or it doesn't


P.S. Don't do it!
Ansbacher
Never say never. I said I would NEVER sell my '64 356 SC, but then one day "poof" the thrill was gone and the market was hot. I took a little piece of the cash I got for it and bought my 914. These things happen very unexpectedly.

Ansbacher
Ansbacher
Never say never. I said I would NEVER sell my '64 356 SC, but then one day "poof" the thrill was gone and the market was hot. I took a little piece of the cash I got for it and bought my 914. These things happen very unexpectedly.

Ansbacher
oakdalecurtis
I was relaxing in my hot tub one evening with my 3 grandsons, aged 7, 13 and 16. I had a friend die recently, so I was explaining to the boys how a will works. I explained that "You can write down what items you own and whom you want the items to go to after you die". I had just finished my thorough explanation when my 13 year old said "Papa, can I have the Porsche?"
Of all my possessions, it took him half a second to make his choice.......
beerchug.gif
wonkipop
some of this value escalation is due to organised investment planning and advice.
the cars in question would mostly have already been purchased 12 months to 2-5 years ago having appeared on investment lists back then. the qualities looked for were low capital cost purchase of excellent condition restored examples or original cars with potential for significant gains, ie 100% or doubling your money.

it doesn't always work, but you can see with a 914 the gains are/were potentially there.
once the original "gamble" pays off for a few investors it gains momentum.
but it can also die out.

thats part of whats going on and why its happening suddenly. the prices are rising due to the "lemming" like behaviour patterns of organised market strategies.

it happens here, there are mobs that prowl around on behalf of investors and they operate with lists. no sentiment involved. just calculations on returns and gambling probabilities. beerchug.gif
AZBanks
Same reason I don't sell my house for it's overinflated current value.

Every penny of profit in it's overinflated value would go paying the overinflated price for another house.


Everyone's situation is different but I don't own my cars to make a profit(it's be nice but it is not a requirement). I own some just to use(Toyota Highlander) and others to enjoy(914s and 944 S2).
GregAmy
Same reason I'm not selling my house: I like my house, and what would I buy to replace it?

EDIT: DAMMIT. Got beat to it.

beerchug.gif
SKL1
QUOTE(oakdalecurtis @ Aug 16 2021, 04:08 PM) *

I was relaxing in my hot tub one evening with my 3 grandsons, aged 7, 13 and 16. I had a friend die recently, so I was explaining to the boys how a will works. I explained that "You can write down what items you own and whom you want the items to go to after you die". I had just finished my thorough explanation when my 13 year old said "Papa, can I have the Porsche?"
Of all my possessions, it took him half a second to make his choice.......
beerchug.gif



My oldest grandson, who was 3 at the time, was very disappointed when opa shipped his car from IA to AZ as then he could only ride in it when he came to visit...
windforfun
QUOTE(SKL1 @ Aug 16 2021, 04:23 PM) *

QUOTE(oakdalecurtis @ Aug 16 2021, 04:08 PM) *

I was relaxing in my hot tub one evening with my 3 grandsons, aged 7, 13 and 16. I had a friend die recently, so I was explaining to the boys how a will works. I explained that "You can write down what items you own and whom you want the items to go to after you die". I had just finished my thorough explanation when my 13 year old said "Papa, can I have the Porsche?"
Of all my possessions, it took him half a second to make his choice.......
beerchug.gif



My oldest grandson, who was 3 at the time, was very disappointed when opa shipped his car from IA to AZ as then he could only ride in it when he came to visit...


Wills are trumped by living trusts which are trumped by what your bank has recorded as your beneficiary. If you record a recipient or beneficiary with your bank or IRA manager, this is what counts. All the other stuff is BS even if you hire an attorney.
horizontally-opposed
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Aug 16 2021, 04:22 PM) *

Same reason I'm not selling my house: I like my house, and what would I buy to replace it?

EDIT: DAMMIT. Got beat to it.

beerchug.gif


Yeah, but you said it so well. beerchug.gif

And…

agree.gif
mb911
QUOTE(wonkipop @ Aug 16 2021, 03:12 PM) *

some of this value escalation is due to organised investment planning and advice.
the cars in question would mostly have already been purchased 12 months to 2-5 years ago having appeared on investment lists back then. the qualities looked for were low capital cost purchase of excellent condition restored examples or original cars with potential for significant gains, ie 100% or doubling your money.

it doesn't always work, but you can see with a 914 the gains are/were potentially there.
once the original "gamble" pays off for a few investors it gains momentum.
but it can also die out.

thats part of whats going on and why its happening suddenly. the prices are rising due to the "lemming" like behaviour patterns of organised market strategies.

it happens here, there are mobs that prowl around on behalf of investors and they operate with lists. no sentiment involved. just calculations on returns and gambling probabilities. beerchug.gif



That's an interesting perspective. Likely so. It reminds me of 15 or so years ago I was seeing the early 930s selling super cheap. No one wanted them as they we non intercooled. I wanted to buy a couple of them then. Should have instead I bought a 67 camaro.. ugh. That was not smart.
Costa05
QUOTE(oakdalecurtis @ Aug 16 2021, 06:08 PM) *

I was relaxing in my hot tub one evening with my 3 grandsons, aged 7, 13 and 16. I had a friend die recently, so I was explaining to the boys how a will works. I explained that "You can write down what items you own and whom you want the items to go to after you die". I had just finished my thorough explanation when my 13 year old said "Papa, can I have the Porsche?"
Of all my possessions, it took him half a second to make his choice.......
:beer2:


Great story. @oakdalecurtis . I have two daughters. Age 23 and 24. They are battling on who gets the 914 when the time comes. We have driven it zero miles. Looks great sitting, waiting, looking happy and almost "finished" in the garage though.
AZBanks
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Aug 16 2021, 04:22 PM) *

Same reason I'm not selling my house: I like my house, and what would I buy to replace it?

EDIT: DAMMIT. Got beat to it.

beerchug.gif


They say great minds think alike. Apparently, you think like me. You might want to see a therapist. confused24.gif

I would like to sell my house and get something with a much bigger garage. My wife wants a smaller house once all the boys are out of college. Eventually we will end up in a smaller house with a big garage/shop.
We will be in our current place until at least next summer since we agreed to not move as long as our foreign exchange student is with us.
wonkipop
QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 05:58 PM) *

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Aug 16 2021, 03:12 PM) *

some of this value escalation is due to organised investment planning and advice.
the cars in question would mostly have already been purchased 12 months to 2-5 years ago having appeared on investment lists back then. the qualities looked for were low capital cost purchase of excellent condition restored examples or original cars with potential for significant gains, ie 100% or doubling your money.

it doesn't always work, but you can see with a 914 the gains are/were potentially there.
once the original "gamble" pays off for a few investors it gains momentum.
but it can also die out.

thats part of whats going on and why its happening suddenly. the prices are rising due to the "lemming" like behaviour patterns of organised market strategies.

it happens here, there are mobs that prowl around on behalf of investors and they operate with lists. no sentiment involved. just calculations on returns and gambling probabilities. beerchug.gif





That's an interesting perspective. Likely so. It reminds me of 15 or so years ago I was seeing the early 930s selling super cheap. No one wanted them as they we non intercooled. I wanted to buy a couple of them then. Should have instead I bought a 67 camaro.. ugh. That was not smart.



however, if you had bought the equal of a 67 camaro in aus 15 years ago you'd be laughing your head off as much as the guys who had early 911s. aus muscle car market went mental (to a level i cannot quite fathom). aus muscle cars like holden monaros, holden toranas, ford falcon gts and gthos just went nuts. sort of returns described above. i think it has all maxed out for aus muscle cars, no 100% double your money stuff going on now. instead you got a 100K - a million dollars tied up in your garage in some metal you can't insure, drive or even walk past for fear of scratching it. hoping that the game of musical chairs is not over -- because you damn well don't really love it for what it is.

i have a 914 now that is a bit of quandry and i never meant it to be that way.
its just a bog standard 1.8 that by some fluke of circumstances has ended up being a survivor. but its not a special 914 apart from surviving this long because i kept it and then had some bad luck and stopped driving it for a fair while - and still kept it.
i'm going to keep driving it now, and if its survives until i stop surviving thats fine by me.
i don't want anyone else having it until i'm gone.

people used to be born and die in the same house. wonderful stuff.
Gatornapper
Ditto 914e, ditto.

I'm 76 and a few more bucks in my pocket are not worth the loss of true pleasure and enjoyment I get driving my 914. But then I live in the country with great twisties in almost all the roads within a 70 mile radius to my east and hundreds of miles to my west.....I'm spoiled where I can enjoy my 914 in every drive.

Plan to pass it on to my kids, hoping one of my 8 will want to keep it. Or they can sell it, but not me.

GN


QUOTE(914e @ Aug 16 2021, 03:07 PM) *

QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 02:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.


I have never planned on selling a car. I keep them till they are not worth fixing or I just don't use them any more. At these prices just wait three weeks and it will be worth fixing.

bkrantz
Even with inflated prices, I have spent much more so far than I could get for my car.

Sell and do another 914 or two? How fast can I go broke?
Coondog
Thanks to Patrick Motor Sports I will be upside down forever… blink.gif blink.gif
double-a
yeah. every so often i step into the garage and think "i could sell this thing for a pile of cash, and accelerate my retirement a bit, get an RV, or maybe put it all into crypto."

but then i take it out for a drive, and all those foolish thoughts go away biggrin.gif
Cairo94507
@Coondog - Maybe, but you will smile each and every time you see your car sitting in the garage or get in it and turn the key and go for a ride.

At Werks Reunion I spent a decent amount of time speaking with James Patrick about possibly doing a 916 transaxle in my car and what that would look like. He just happened to have one in the blue 914-6 GT clone sitting near my car.....that did not help. You would have thought there was a medium-rare fillet sitting on a plate in front of me.... chowtime.gif

Looking forward to seeing you at WCR!

Jamie
QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Aug 17 2021, 05:35 AM) *

@Coondog - Maybe, but you will smile each and every time you see your car sitting in the garage or get in it and turn the key and go for a ride.

At Werks Reunion I spent a decent amount of time speaking with James Patrick about possibly doing a 916 transaxle in my car and what that would look like. He just happened to have one in the blue 914-6 GT clone sitting near my car.....that did not help. You would have thought there was a medium-rare fillet sitting on a plate in front of me.... chowtime.gif

Looking forward to seeing you at WCR!

"A man with no vices is like a sinking ship with no freight to throw overboard!"-Mark Twain smilie_pokal.gif
mb911
QUOTE(Jamie @ Aug 17 2021, 05:46 AM) *

QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Aug 17 2021, 05:35 AM) *

@Coondog - Maybe, but you will smile each and every time you see your car sitting in the garage or get in it and turn the key and go for a ride.

At Werks Reunion I spent a decent amount of time speaking with James Patrick about possibly doing a 916 transaxle in my car and what that would look like. He just happened to have one in the blue 914-6 GT clone sitting near my car.....that did not help. You would have thought there was a medium-rare fillet sitting on a plate in front of me.... chowtime.gif

Looking forward to seeing you at WCR!

"A man with no vices is like a sinking ship with no freight to throw overboard!"-Mark Twain smilie_pokal.gif

agree.gif

That is the truth
Coondog
QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Aug 17 2021, 06:35 AM) *

@Coondog - Maybe, but you will smile each and every time you see your car sitting in the garage or get in it and turn the key and go for a ride.


Looking forward to seeing you at WCR!


Your right I need to get out and drive my car. The good news is my driving season is right around the corner. Fall, Winter, Spring. Summer where I live is not a great option.

Sept 11. San Clemente classic car show
Sept 26. Phoenix Event
Oct. 15. WCR
VaccaRabite
I won't sell the 914. Period.

But I am thinking heavily about selling the Challenger (and not replacing it). Its currently worth more then I have put into it, and I could just use my 4Runner as my daily.

But - I bought it because I like it. So its tough to sell it even though it makes financial sense.
Zach
SirAndy
QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 02:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.

Because for me my 914(s) were never about money ...
shades.gif
mb911
QUOTE(VaccaRabite @ Aug 17 2021, 07:31 AM) *

I won't sell the 914. Period.

But I am thinking heavily about selling the Challenger (and not replacing it). Its currently worth more then I have put into it, and I could just use my 4Runner as my daily.

But - I bought it because I like it. So its tough to sell it even though it makes financial sense.
Zach



Man I get that. I paid 41 for 18 Silverado 2.5 years ago and put 55k on it. It currently books for 36k. Seriously thinking dumping it after the boating season and drive something crappy until the market crashes.
mb911
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Aug 17 2021, 07:41 AM) *

QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 02:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.

Because for me my 914(s) were never about money ...
shades.gif



They really aren't either for me. But at some point they will become to expensive to drive like the 356 became? Not sure. I do know I plan to continue to enjoy mine until it's no longer fun for me.
Coondog
Anybody want to buy my 1970 SS 454 El Camino. 91k miles
Click to view attachment
windforfun
QUOTE(Coondog @ Aug 17 2021, 08:48 AM) *

Anybody want to buy my 1970 SS 454 El Camino. 91k miles
Click to view attachment


That's one beautiful car!!! Damn, I don't have room in my garage.

drooley.gif
Superhawk996
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Aug 17 2021, 11:41 AM) *

QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 02:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.

Because for me my 914(s) were never about money ...
shades.gif


first.gif
horizontally-opposed
QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 17 2021, 08:44 AM) *

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Aug 17 2021, 07:41 AM) *

QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 02:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.

Because for me my 914(s) were never about money ...
shades.gif



They really aren't either for me. But at some point they will become to expensive to drive like the 356 became? Not sure. I do know I plan to continue to enjoy mine until it's no longer fun for me.


I don't know about too expensive to drive, and am not sure that will ever happen to 99% of 914s—a very good thing.

But the ship sailed on parking 914s just anywhere or in any motel lot a long time ago, at least for me. SUV sightlines/parking excellence and ever more expensive replacement parts were the first nails in the coffin, but I knew it was bad when I realized I had zero problem parking my GT4 out of sight but couldn't say the same with my 914. blink.gif
Pursang
I hope that I am never in the situation where I would have to sell my 914. It means more to me than money. I am sure that there are people who feel the same about their cars no matter what brand or model.

My opinion about BaT is that it has morphed from a place where car lovers could sell or trade into a flippers website. Many sellers seem to nave purchased the car they are selling within the previous year; an automotive "Flip or Flop."
930cabman
QUOTE(oakdalecurtis @ Aug 16 2021, 05:08 PM) *

I was relaxing in my hot tub one evening with my 3 grandsons, aged 7, 13 and 16. I had a friend die recently, so I was explaining to the boys how a will works. I explained that "You can write down what items you own and whom you want the items to go to after you die". I had just finished my thorough explanation when my 13 year old said "Papa, can I have the Porsche?"
Of all my possessions, it took him half a second to make his choice.......
beerchug.gif


+1, Smart kid

Many good responses. Mostly, because driving a 914 is fun
targa72e
QUOTE(mb911 @ Aug 16 2021, 03:04 PM) *

With prices as crazy as they are right now how come we are not all selling? It is very tempting for me. I would want to build another but it sure is tempting to sell now and take the cash and find a few cars in need of some love and keep the money train going.


I feel the same way and am planning on selling. I purchased my first 914 because I had several 911 engines and 911 rollers had become very expensive. I purchased a 73 to do a 6-conversion to to see if I liked 914's.
Turns out I do. At that point I started looking for another 914 to do another conversion but making it "my car". I ended up with 3 more 914's. I have since sold off the 70 roller that was going to be "my project" as I found a 75 car that was a better starting point. The 73 914-4 I purchased ended up being too nice and original for me to convert so I am cleaning and fixing some mechanical issues before selling. My current plan is to sell my 73 914-6 conversion and the 73 original 914-4 to fund "my 914" and other projects. I like building them almost as much (maybe more) than driving them.

john
Freezin 914
As most do from time to time, I feel the same way about selling. I never dreamed of 911s, 914s growing up. I was 19 had a decent paying job, and bought my first Porsche (74 911 Targa) around 1999. Paid 7k, drove it home. Long story short, sold it, do to not being able to maintain it properly etc. Longed for a Porsche again ever since. Found the 914 to be an “economical” choice. Eventually bought one and never looked back. To this day I like my 911, but enjoy my 914 more in many ways.
A few reasons; (my opinions)
*I consider the 914 to be more rare than a 911. Hardly see them at events compared to 911s.
*There seems to be a bit of a stigma with the 911 guys.
*Most important reason…..the people! The 914 community is as far as I am concerned, is the best group of car folks on earth. It is proven on here every single day. Thank you for that.
For those thinking about selling, do what ever you like, but for me, I’ll take the car over the cash!

PS, @mb911 don’t do it, you’ll regret it!

mb911
QUOTE(Freezin 914 @ Aug 17 2021, 07:16 PM) *

As most do from time to time, I feel the same way about selling. I never dreamed of 911s, 914s growing up. I was 19 had a decent paying job, and bought my first Porsche (74 911 Targa) around 1999. Paid 7k, drove it home. Long story short, sold it, do to not being able to maintain it properly etc. Longed for a Porsche again ever since. Found the 914 to be an “economical” choice. Eventually bought one and never looked back. To this day I like my 911, but enjoy my 914 more in many ways.
A few reasons; (my opinions)
*I consider the 914 to be more rare than a 911. Hardly see them at events compared to 911s.
*There seems to be a bit of a stigma with the 911 guys.
*Most important reason…..the people! The 914 community is as far as I am concerned, is the best group of car folks on earth. It is proven on here every single day. Thank you for that.
For those thinking about selling, do what ever you like, but for me, I’ll take the car over the cash!

PS, @mb911 don’t do it, you’ll regret it!


Just so everyone was aware this was hypothetical on my behalf. I don't plan on selling.
falcor75
I am selling mine but thats just because I want to do more driving experiences with my teenage son and as fun as the 914 is its not a car I want to do a Eurotrip in. A Cayman or a Boxster will most likely replace it with a Jaguar F-type as the more dark horse kind of choice.
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