Restoring a 70 which will have a 76 2 liter. Currently has factory injection but guy who will be building engine for me is anti injection. I know this becomes personal decision but could use some input on pro/cons. Cost is a concern but so is practicality and performance.
Words of wisdom please.
Merry and Happy to all!

Move to carbs will devalue your 914. If your mech doesn't like FI, most likely because he/she doesn't understand FI.

It's your car, do what YOU want, not what the mech wants.

I'm with Root. Don't change to carbs would be my vote. They were FI for a reason.

Unless you're building a race motor, I'd keep the injection, especially if it is in good working order. Had two different carb set ups over the years, went back to injection.

I'd say they're all correct about FI. BUT i had dual Webbers on my bored 1.8 with a cam and had great fun for over 10 yrs. Now the 914-6 GT Tribute is a 2.2 E with S pistons and DC 30 cams with 40PMO's. Lots of power and fun to drive.

Current motor (2056) is dual carb (Webber IDF 40's) and is reliable, runs well. Having said that....if you have a choice stick with fuel injection.

Our 914 had dual Webers when we got it back in 1980. It also had a non-factory camshaft from the previous owner which was likely the reason for the carbs. It had plenty of pep, especially in the mid range and can't say I ever missed the original FI. The carbs were easy to service and the engine always ran well.

Gotta ask what's the highest priority... resale value, upfront investment, ease of maintenance, power, originality, getting it running asap, etc.... ?

Since the 2.0 engine isn't original for the year of the car anyway, not sure if carbs would really hurt value. If it was a numbers matching engine for the car, maybe, but since this isn't the case, just doesn't seem as important.

Sounds like upfront costs may be more going FI, if nothing else from the labor side. No idea what parts may be needed for it to run correctly, but if the mechanic isn't comfortable working with the FI, that's a bad sign. He may never be able to get it running correctly with the FI.

If you want a performance boost that requires a different cam profile then carbs are a no-brainer. There's always the option of various aftermarket FIs, but that's another can of worms.

Real thing is to do what you feel is right. If you keep the FI components, you could always try to revert at a later time if you decide on carbs now, so it's not a decision that couldn't be changed.

Dan

I am FI guy,now that said ,run the 76 injection. Get all the smog stuff of the engine, plug the ports. Run a Elgin 330-1 performance cam for fuel injection. Bump to 96mm to make it a 2056.

I am presently building a 2056 with an Elgin cam (266). It will have 44IDF Webers. While I am not 100% opposed to the stock Bosch FI, the fussiness of it all is just a PITA. Also, I am an old cranky guy

Pros for FI:

Retains originality and value.
Turnkey starts and great performance.
Better fuel economy.
Quieter engine and smoother ride overall.

Cons for FI:

Difficult to troubleshoot.
Many of the available parts are ancient.
Relies on worn out wiring very often.
Your engine bay is a jungle of tubes and hoses interfering with other maintenance.
Parts, when available are expensive.
Failures can leave you stranded on the road.

Pros for Carbs:

Easy to tune and repair.
Parts are available and cheap.
No electrics or electronics to worry about.
Engine bay is clean and open, easier to work on other things.
Failures can be usually be fixed on the road.

Cons for Carbs:

Originality and value suffers (but as time goes by, less and less).
Cold starts can be tricky.
Poor fuel economy (+ you should burn non-ethanol fuel).
Engine is a bit louder (some owners like that).

Hope this helps your decision making.

Ansbacher

Well said, thank you

one thing that will tell you about FI. People will want to buy it off you.

What do you and/or your mechanic want to spend time fooling with? IMO if the stock FI runs then you can probably keep it running (and maybe running well) with a minimum of effort and time. If the system is not running, then it can become a time and money pit--one that you really have to be ready to dive deep into the design of the system and trouble-shooting components.

Installing carbs will almost certainly get it running--but getting it running well will also require time and effort.

Which technology do you want to invest in?

If keeping the stock displacement, get a mechanic who isn’t afraid of the FI.

I had carbs on my 4 and on my 2.7 six. They never left me stranded, my 3.2 injection has. The DME injection is not as complicated as the older 4 banger injection. I later mastered the DME 3.2 injection and would never put carbs on a 3.2 or 3.6 motor.
Another question.. do you work on your own car or rely on a mechanic? Injection is better, but if you work on your own car, carbs are easier to understand and maintain. Some locals have injection and have spare parts and know how to troubleshoot it. It’s another hobby for them.
Injection is better, but you can always keep the injection in a box and either convert it back or sell it later with the car, if you decide to sell it.

Does your mechanic want to crack the case to put a cam suited for carbs?
If so take advantage of going to a 2056. You will still have to clean it all up and “build” the engine. New bearings, seals etc. this will cost no less than 2k most likely significantly more and have more down time.

As pointed out stock F/I is dependable and will keep the value of your car for resale higher ( at least in my opinion).

You can do a lot with 2K, and will be on the road faster.

Mark

Injection is nice.
But I’d rather be blown.
Sorry I can’t help myself..

Great help......and as expected many angles to this.....
Thank you!

In addition to @ansbacher 's list and the other great advice you've already been given, I'd add:

Carb Pros:
Can wake up the engine with lots more power for not a lot of dough
Great note / sound

Carb Cons:
Keeping them in synch can be fiddly, depending on your linkage and other factors.
May need to re-jet for changes in altitude

Possibly true. I have a bunch of D jet and L jet stuff kicking around, but have little/no way of testing it and do not want to sell stuff I do not know the condition of. The stock FI system is coming up on 50 years of age, how long can this stuff last??

The lack of testing equipment is a big problem.

I ran a d-jet on my daily driver 71. I had a few problems with it. Every time, you had to examine the whole system. Spent a ton of money on the D-Jet. Finally, one day it just wouldn't start. Drove it 70 miles the day before with no problems or even a hiccup.

After a week spent going through everything, I concluded the ECU was bad. Looking around, I realized every replacement ECU is going to be close to 50 years old. At that point, I decided I would go to carbs because reliability is paramount to me. I removed the D-Jet and installed new IDF 40's in less time than it took to diagnosis the FI. I'm at sea level and it cold starts and runs great with minimal initial adjustment.

Decreased fuel mileage is the greatest draw back of new carbs. But hey, I would have had a lot of gas money for what I've spent on the FI.

1. If the guy building your motor is anti-injection, find a new guy. Though to be fair if we are talking ONLY about d-jet it may be understandable as d-jet issues can and have nuked brand new motors in short order before. To engine builders d-jet is a liability.

2. Are you only looking at a debate between d-jet and carbs, because there are better options now than both of those?

I personally have always been anti carb because they are at best a compromise (provided you build the engine to take advantage of them) but in most cases they are just a downgrade. I used to be a d-jet purist, and in many 914s over the last 20+ years have always found d-jet to be a very solid system, but the points around the system being 50 years old, difficult to troubleshoot and modify, and some critical parts being NLA do make for a strong case against it.

Modern programable injection, is the way forward, best of all worlds.

How much can we figure for a new programable FI system?
thanks

@930cabman

In kit form, DubShop used to have a nice dual ITB Megasquirt kit with wiring, all sensors, pump, etc., for about $3500. Currently showing Waiting on Throttle bodies and no pricing.

Get ready for price hike with devaluation of the dollar and supply chain issues!

It is the kit I'd love to do if I were going to stay /4 forever.

I make no excuses for myself, I like carbs. I like the old school performance and I like the the sound. Sounds like my uncles old 356 sc. Plus they look cool.

Click to view attachment

Fuel only SDS, using stock intake (stock pump, injectors, etc) and a DIY install can be done for $1072.* plus a wideband meter.

*Parts also needed (extra) MAP sensor 1 bar $73, TPS $93 (can be had at scrapyard), fuel pump relay $30 (optional but recommended).
This is the minimum extra parts needed, there's other options.

No dyno time required. Basic install time required for me is one weekend, for an amateur maybe 2-4 weekends. Tuning time for me on county back roads one hour, again for the amateur 2-4 times that number. Engine will fire up right away, with the included rich/lean knob I have no worries breaking in a new engine on SDS as you can adjust AFR on the fly.
Based on an engine with no mechanical issues. System can tolerate mild carb cam grinds, limited to the stock intake. Don't expect any more than stock performance on a stock engine, FI doesn't add HP.

NOTE crankfire "F" systems and crankfire E/MSD systems take much longer, as you have to remove the engine and fab a trigger mount.

I've done several of these /4 "D" systems on stock engines, they run great. I have SDS with crankfire on my 2.6L VW bug (T4 conversion) and I have a twin plug system I will install on my 3.0/6 conversion someday.

sdsefi.com

Did the engine builder say what camshaft he wants?
The right camshaft and piston/cylinders can take you car from 100hp up past 150. It becomes a torque monster.
I say YES. However it is your car, so do as you wish.

Matt

My new year's resolution is to get my 914 put back together and complete the restoration, so I'm debating this exact thing.

Some very good points here for both sides which doesn't make the decision easy.

I have a 75' 2.0 with 62k miles and the original engine that has been converted to IDF 40's (not sure cam was changed).

Back in the day we put the FI in a box when something went bad. It had so many components and there was little expertise, except at the dealer, back in the day; shops didn't want to work on them and carbs were an easy solution.

understood that peak performance only comes with skilled tuning for the dual carbs.

I do have the original FI in a box that came with the car, but obviously one of the components is bad and would require a big effort to trouble shoot and get 47 year old parts to come back to life.

I've done a color change so I'm not hung up on it affecting the value, it will never be a concourse level car.

It looks like a rebuild of the Webbers and engine will be on my to do list.

If you have the d-jet intake I would say $1000 is roughly the comfortable low end to do it yourself. It can be done for much less but with much greater time and effort, $1000 is the comfortable point for DIY. I did receive a notice that there are going to be price increases on Megasquirt hardware in the new year though, so that may change a bit.

Marios (dubshop) kit at $3500 includes $1000+ of ITBs and related hardware (and markup) that you can get by without if you already have the 2.0 intake and unless the motor is built up significantly over stock there is not any advantage to running ITBs. that being said it is a complete kit so if you are starting with nothing it may be the easy way to go. His harness is not specific to 914s though, at least not the last one i saw. Also the dubshops type 4 crank sensor, while still my personal favorite serup, does require dropping the engine to install in a 914.

Not sure if PMB is selling any systems for end user installation yet (or what they cost), but they have built out a few now that are 914 specific and use a trigger setup that replaces the distributor so you don't need to drop the engine.

Probably wouldn't be as much of an effort as you might think. These days a lot more is known/documented about d-jet, there are really only a couple of the major components that fail in a way to cause serious issues and the info is out there to bench test the components so its fairly easy with the parts already off the car.

BUT, given the age, limitations, and availability of new parts for d-jet I feel like you really need to be committed to the idea if you want to go down the road of putting it back in. Probably worth the time to at least figure out what is wrong with the system you have though, I would bet its probably something simple like a torn MPS diaphragm or bad head temp sensor, both of which are very easy to determine on the bench.