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Txbentleyboy
Time has come for a new battery for my 76. What can you recommend in the +\- $200 range?

The car will be driven 3-4 times a week around town.

The new technology Is amazing but does it apply to a 45 year old car?

Thanks!
Van B
Optima Red Top for the win.
But your hell hole will thank you for any quality AGM battery.
Txbentleyboy
QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 12 2022, 08:50 PM) *

Optima Red Top for the win.
But your hell hole will thank you for any quality AGM battery.


Thanks for the advice. I went to the Optima site and used their fitment tool and it comes back as no application for my car.

What size do you have?
nditiz1
If you want something cool, get the AGM as stated, odyssey pc925 and pc625. If you want something cheap everstart. I own a lot of cars and was tired of always shopping around. After my autozone gold died 1 day outside the 3 yr full replacement warranty I went everstart and haven't looked back. Carried at Walmart, warranty is fine.
emerygt350
I went with the optima. A 34r is workable. I had to bend a little part of my battery tray lip but it was worth it. If you have dreams of a concourse car than obviously that won't work. I needed something that I could secure for inspection in autocross. That worked perfectly.
raynekat
I purchased this AGM battery made by XS Power (model D4700) from Jegs onllne.
$279.99 including shipping plus you need a set of $10 terminals.

Specs:
12-Volt
CA: 760
CCA: 668
Ah: 62, 2000W / 3000W
Max Amps: 2900
Reserve Capacity: 110 Minutes
Weight: 42.2 lbs

It fits very nicely in the factory battery tray using the factory hold down clamp.

Click to view attachment
horizontally-opposed
Been running Optima red tops for 30~ years, but next battery will probably be an Odyssey PC925. Price and weight are both very attractive…
bkrantz
QUOTE(raynekat @ Feb 12 2022, 08:21 PM) *

I purchased this AGM battery made by XS Power (model D4700) from Jegs onllne.
$279.99 including shipping plus you need a set of $10 terminals.

Specs:
12-Volt
CA: 760
CCA: 668
Ah: 62, 2000W / 3000W
Max Amps: 2900
Reserve Capacity: 110 Minutes
Weight: 42.2 lbs

It fits very nicely in the factory battery tray using the factory hold down clamp.

Click to view attachment


Yes--this one.
Van B
QUOTE(Txbentleyboy @ Feb 12 2022, 09:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 12 2022, 08:50 PM) *

Optima Red Top for the win.
But your hell hole will thank you for any quality AGM battery.


Thanks for the advice. I went to the Optima site and used their fitment tool and it comes back as no application for my car.

What size do you have?

I have this one:

https://www.optimabatteries.com/products/redtop-34-78

It was $260 from advance auto, but I also get a 10% military discount which brought it down to $250 with tax.
Brian Fuerbach
Optima red top 75-25 model #7586DT Works nicely also.
mlindner
Optima also but not in stock position.Click to view attachment
ClayPerrine
I run the Optima red top in everything I own (with one exception), and they are all the same size.

The exception is the SUV tow vehicle. I have not had to replace the battery yet. When I do, it gets an Optima.

StarBear
QUOTE(Txbentleyboy @ Feb 12 2022, 09:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 12 2022, 08:50 PM) *

Optima Red Top for the win.
But your hell hole will thank you for any quality AGM battery.


Thanks for the advice. I went to the Optima site and used their fitment tool and it comes back as no application for my car.

What size do you have?

34R. Instead of bending the tray I used a demes to shave off a bit of the battery base edge. It come with a hold down adapter.
930cabman
The Optima in my 356 lasted over 12 years, replaced it with same. When it comes time, i will probably go with an Optima and have considered relocating into the rear.
horizontally-opposed
Has anyone moved from Optima red top to Odyssey 925?

Looks like about the same price and 20~ pounds lighter. Curious for any firsthand experiences. Would use in conjunction with a battery cutoff for when the car sits.
Van B
QUOTE(StarBear @ Feb 13 2022, 09:16 AM) *

QUOTE(Txbentleyboy @ Feb 12 2022, 09:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 12 2022, 08:50 PM) *

Optima Red Top for the win.
But your hell hole will thank you for any quality AGM battery.


Thanks for the advice. I went to the Optima site and used their fitment tool and it comes back as no application for my car.

What size do you have?

34R. Instead of bending the tray I used a demes to shave off a bit of the battery base edge. It come with a hold down adapter.

Mine has lots of room and the hold down tab bolted right up.
yellowporky
I went through this 2 years ago and ended up with the yellow top D35. the only thing that i had to do was reroute the positive cable.
The fitment guide does not say it fits.
Click to view attachment
Literati914
QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 12 2022, 09:31 PM) *

..
I have this one:

https://www.optimabatteries.com/products/redtop-34-78

It was $260 from advance auto, but I also get a 10% military discount which brought it down to $250 with tax.


Hey @Van B , from the picture at your link (optima 34/78) ..with the side terminals facing towards the engine compartment, aren’t the positive and negative top posts in the wrong location to be ideal? Are you and others just “stretching” the cables over to where they need to be, or maybe just running with the side terminals towards the wheel wells ? Sorry if I’ve got that wrong, I had an optima in a 914 long ago but I’m going off memory at the moment, thanks.


.
Van B
QUOTE(Literati914 @ Feb 13 2022, 12:44 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 12 2022, 09:31 PM) *

..
I have this one:

https://www.optimabatteries.com/products/redtop-34-78

It was $260 from advance auto, but I also get a 10% military discount which brought it down to $250 with tax.


Hey @Van B , from the picture at your link (optima 34/78) ..with the side terminals facing towards the engine compartment, aren’t the positive and negative top posts in the wrong location to be ideal? Are you and others just “stretching” the cables over to where they need to be, or maybe just running with the side terminals towards the wheel wells ? Sorry if I’ve got that wrong, I had an optima in a 914 long ago but I’m going off memory at the moment, thanks.


.

Fits perfectly!
rjames
I have the Odyssey 925 and am happy with it. But note that because it’s smaller you’ll have to figure out a way to secure it. If you get one make sure to get the right battery tender /trickle charger for it. There is a specific list of compatible chargers that if you don’t use you’ll shorten the life of the battery.
targa72e
Optima red top. Have one in all my cars. Last one I replaced was 12 years old.

john
Ansbacher
Optima Red Top is perfect and at a reasonable price. ANYTHING but a conventional wet battery! When are they going to stop making those damn things?? Once they do, the price of the newer technology will come down.

Ansbacher
jim_hoyland
Red Top 34R - 10+ years of great service. Especially if your driving the car regularly.
I keep a trickle charge on it if I’m away or not driving the car.
Only complaint is it’s heavy.
windforfun
QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 13 2022, 10:50 AM) *

QUOTE(Literati914 @ Feb 13 2022, 12:44 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 12 2022, 09:31 PM) *

..
I have this one:

https://www.optimabatteries.com/products/redtop-34-78

It was $260 from advance auto, but I also get a 10% military discount which brought it down to $250 with tax.


Hey @Van B , from the picture at your link (optima 34/78) ..with the side terminals facing towards the engine compartment, aren’t the positive and negative top posts in the wrong location to be ideal? Are you and others just “stretching” the cables over to where they need to be, or maybe just running with the side terminals towards the wheel wells ? Sorry if I’ve got that wrong, I had an optima in a 914 long ago but I’m going off memory at the moment, thanks.


.

Fits perfectly!


agree.gif agree.gif agree.gif

Mine doesn't have the side terminals. The top terminals being located by the wheel well isn't a problem.
Literati914
QUOTE(windforfun @ Feb 13 2022, 07:11 PM) *

..
agree.gif agree.gif agree.gif

Mine doesn't have the side terminals. The top terminals being located by the wheel well isn't a problem.


Yea and the pictures showing side terminals is what had me concerned, that in the configuration where they face the wheel wells (as Van B’s do) could possibly cause an arching if allowed to touch the chassis. Obviously though, the little plastic covers are being retained and keeping that from happening. So, just my paranoia .. though I’d be tempted to add a strip of rubber to that area.


.
windforfun
And just remember, especially with these old cars, that when you hook up jumper cables be sure to connect the negative (ground) cable last. If you hook it up first & let the positive cable touch the chassis you'll have lots of sparks. And maybe a fire if you have a fuel leak.

w00t.gif w00t.gif w00t.gif
L-Jet914
I have a 11 year old Optima Yellow Top D34 I believe and still cranks over just fine. It fits fine with the exception of having to extending the wires a little bit as the terminals sit towards the outer fender and the hold down it comes with fits perfectly. Sits on the Schumacher 1.5A battery tender when not in use. Next battery I will be using will most likely be the Odyssey ODP-AGM96R per the vehicle look up for our 4 cylinder 914s.
cali914
QUOTE(targa72e @ Feb 13 2022, 11:52 AM) *

Optima red top. Have one in all my cars. Last one I replaced was 12 years old.

john

agree
Van B
QUOTE(Literati914 @ Feb 13 2022, 09:29 PM) *

QUOTE(windforfun @ Feb 13 2022, 07:11 PM) *

..
agree.gif agree.gif agree.gif

Mine doesn't have the side terminals. The top terminals being located by the wheel well isn't a problem.


Yea and the pictures showing side terminals is what had me concerned, that in the configuration where they face the wheel wells (as Van B’s do) could possibly cause an arching if allowed to touch the chassis. Obviously though, the little plastic covers are being retained and keeping that from happening. So, just my paranoia .. though I’d be tempted to add a strip of rubber to that area.


.

I wouldn’t call that paranoia. The side terminals don’t touch, the plastic completely covers them, and I have thick Ziebart coating all over the engine bay.

I do wish I had a cap that would cover the positive terminal, but no luck.
Aerostatwv
This appears to be a good reference for comparing the different battery groups and sizes: https://batterygroupexpert.com/group-42-battery/

Chris

Txbentleyboy
Thanks for all of the great information. I have decided to go for the Red Top.
zoomCat
Does anyone know if the Rennline mount for the Odyssey PC925 simply bolts it? Does the version with the disconnect switch interfere with anything? This would be for a six, so no rain tray.

Thanks!
Shackleford
These are crazy expensive. But I'm tempted cause they weigh like nothing. But they are crazy expensive.

https://antigravitybatteries.com/productlin...ies/automotive/
horizontally-opposed
QUOTE(Shackleford @ Feb 18 2022, 10:42 AM) *

These are crazy expensive. But I'm tempted cause they weigh like nothing. But they are crazy expensive.

https://antigravitybatteries.com/productlin...ies/automotive/


I remain tempted, too. Gulp. No loss of performance, backup starting via push-button remote, and nearly 30 pounds lighter…

$250~ Odyssey PC925MJT: 25.3 lbs, 6.6L x 7.1W x 5H 330A CCA / 500A CA
$270~ Optima Red Top 34: 41.1 lbs, 10L x 6.9W x 7.9H 800A CCA / 1000A CA
$750 Anti-Gravity H5 30A: 11.7 lbs, 9.5W x 7W x 7.5H 1200A CA

It's a big premium for a car battery, but the PC925 requires an adapter (Rennline mount for $135-145, or fab your own). Then again, losing 30~ pounds with no loss in functionality for $350-500 would be tough/impossible to duplicate anywhere in a 914, let alone high up on one side of the car. With a six conversion, 30 pounds goes a fair way toward offsetting the heavier Mezger engine, oil tank, etc. I can't see doing it just to do it, as my Optima is still healthy, but maybe next time I need a battery…
Van B
I used race batteries for years when I raced superbikes back in the day. Back then, you could NOT, under any circumstances, keep the battery connected when storing the bike. Not so much for the fire risk but more about the drain. When the battery went dead, it could never be charged again… just wouldn’t take.
The main selling point I see here is the circuitry that disconnects the battery prior to it reaching a terminal low charge.
As for the weight savings, if you’ve already thrown out your passenger seat and radio, then you’re probably ready for this battery. If you haven’t, just admit it’s a vanity purchase and then tell us all about it once you get it installed!
Maltese Falcon
I've looked into this DieHard (AGM) battery; does require a small bit of edge triming off off the left and right side of the battery tray. Always been a DieHard fan, also use Optima Red as well.
JoeD
QUOTE(horizontally-opposed @ Feb 20 2022, 06:13 PM) *

QUOTE(Shackleford @ Feb 18 2022, 10:42 AM) *

These are crazy expensive. But I'm tempted cause they weigh like nothing. But they are crazy expensive.

https://antigravitybatteries.com/productlin...ies/automotive/


I remain tempted, too. Gulp. No loss of performance, backup starting via push-button remote, and nearly 30 pounds lighter…

$250~ Odyssey PC925MJT: 25.3 lbs, 6.6L x 7.1W x 5H 330A CCA / 500A CA
$270~ Optima Red Top 34: 41.1 lbs, 10L x 6.9W x 7.9H 800A CCA / 1000A CA
$750 Anti-Gravity H5 30A: 11.7 lbs, 9.5W x 7W x 7.5H 1200A CA

It's a big premium for a car battery, but the PC925 requires an adapter (Rennline mount for $135-145, or fab your own). Then again, losing 30~ pounds with no loss in functionality for $350-500 would be tough/impossible to duplicate anywhere in a 914, let alone high up on one side of the car. With a six conversion, 30 pounds goes a fair way toward offsetting the heavier Mezger engine, oil tank, etc. I can't see doing it just to do it, as my Optima is still healthy, but maybe next time I need a battery…


I bought an antigravity for my BMW e30, and it is fantastic. Weighs next to nothing, cranks like crazy, and the push-button jump start is great. It's stupid expensive but when my current optima red top in the 914 dies, I'll probably go this way...
horizontally-opposed
An interesting read: https://www.exploringoverland.com/overland-...-worth-the-cost

Don't miss the daisy-chained AG starter batteries for field welding! blink.gif The only thing that concerns me in a 914 application, other than cost, is the upper temperature limit for discharge—which drives some of the overlanders to move the battery out of the engine bay.

As for whether saving 30lbs is worthwhile? I remember being able to tell the difference in the way my 914 drove when there was a 90-110lb passenger (not that much different) vs a passenger closer to 150-200lbs (a lot different). I still can, and a six conversion is more like the latter than the former—so if something gets me back toward the former, color me interested. Replacing the steel trunk lids with FG or CF is also on the "hmm" list, but makes an AG battery look cheap. Past that, and maybe GT bumpers, most of the "easy" ways to save weight in a 914 start affecting function while lightening one's wallet. YMMV…
vitamin914
Be cautious if considering an Antigravity battery. It may or may not work for you.

In the thread, > What's your volt meter reading when cruising around town?,
member raynekat, bought a 30 amp hr Antigravity and had issues with the battery supplying enough current with headlights, fogs, wipers, etc running.
His discussions with Superhawk996 are really worth reading - before spending a lot of money on a lithium battery.

I will be installing seat heaters so I know I will have extra current draw above what is standard. I was contemplating trying the Antigravity unit until I read the thread and opted instead for the Odyssey PC1200 (ODS-AGM42L). The Optima was second on my list. Thanks to these guys I think I avoided making the wrong choice. pray.gif
horizontally-opposed
QUOTE(vitamin914 @ Feb 21 2022, 09:21 AM) *

Be cautious if considering an Antigravity battery. It may or may not work for you.

In the thread, > What's your volt meter reading when cruising around town?,
member raynekat, bought a 30 amp hr Antigravity and had issues with the battery supplying enough current with headlights, fogs, wipers, etc running.
His discussions with Superhawk996 are really worth reading - before spending a lot of money on a lithium battery.

I will be installing seat heaters so I know I will have extra current draw above what is standard. I was contemplating trying the Antigravity unit until I read the thread and opted instead for the Odyssey PC1200 (ODS-AGM42L). The Optima was second on my list. Thanks to these guys I think I avoided making the wrong choice. pray.gif


Great input—thank you, and will find and read that thread.

I've gone to LED brake boards (big deal) and am contemplating LED headlights, but also seat heaters and a small electric heater to clear the windshield and/or keep my feet warm in lieu of heat exchangers. There's no radio in the car right now, but that will likely change. Nothing crazy, and no head unit but most likely a small JL amp.
vitamin914
QUOTE(horizontally-opposed @ Feb 21 2022, 12:05 PM) *

QUOTE(vitamin914 @ Feb 21 2022, 09:21 AM) *

Be cautious if considering an Antigravity battery. It may or may not work for you.

In the thread, > What's your volt meter reading when cruising around town?,
member raynekat, bought a 30 amp hr Antigravity and had issues with the battery supplying enough current with headlights, fogs, wipers, etc running.
His discussions with Superhawk996 are really worth reading - before spending a lot of money on a lithium battery.

I will be installing seat heaters so I know I will have extra current draw above what is standard. I was contemplating trying the Antigravity unit until I read the thread and opted instead for the Odyssey PC1200 (ODS-AGM42L). The Optima was second on my list. Thanks to these guys I think I avoided making the wrong choice. pray.gif


Great input—thank you, and will find and read that thread.

I've gone to LED brake boards (big deal) and am contemplating LED headlights, but also seat heaters and a small electric heater to clear the windshield and/or keep my feet warm in lieu of heat exchangers. There's no radio in the car right now, but that will likely change. Nothing crazy, and no head unit but most likely a small JL amp.


It seems I am going down the same path as you. I have a new Sony XAVAX1000 radio with a tiny Sony XMS400D amp (I wanted CarPlay and had to 3D print a special mount to accommodate the screen on the radio), heated seats, Philips LED sealed beam drop in replacements and LED changeout bulbs everywhere else except the dash.

The small electric heater for the windshield blower is in the back of my mind too. The PO deleted all the cabin heat exchangers when replacing the engine. The ride can get chilly with foggy windows. The only thing that worries me is that heating the air to the blower will need a lot of extra wattage - maybe more than is available. I am hoping the seat heater is enough to keep me warm with maybe an anti-fog spray for the windshield.
euro911
You guys with heavy electrical loads might want to look into acquiring a high amperage alternator. Not sure if Pete @pnewman is still offering them ...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=195244


... or possibly Mark DeBernardi @McMark - I believe he was offering them a while back as well unsure.gif
horizontally-opposed
QUOTE(vitamin914 @ Feb 21 2022, 09:21 AM) *

Be cautious if considering an Antigravity battery. It may or may not work for you.

In the thread, > What's your volt meter reading when cruising around town?,
member raynekat, bought a 30 amp hr Antigravity and had issues with the battery supplying enough current with headlights, fogs, wipers, etc running.
His discussions with Superhawk996 are really worth reading - before spending a lot of money on a lithium battery.

I will be installing seat heaters so I know I will have extra current draw above what is standard. I was contemplating trying the Antigravity unit until I read the thread and opted instead for the Odyssey PC1200 (ODS-AGM42L). The Optima was second on my list. Thanks to these guys I think I avoided making the wrong choice. pray.gif


So, following up, I wonder if the issues that 911 people aren't running into with Anti-Gravity batteries but @raynekat did run into is related to the 914 battery being in a hot engine bay?

From https://www.exploringoverland.com/overland-...-worth-the-cost

Most lithium automotive batteries, including the Antigravity unit, can be used (i.e. discharged) at temperatures down to -20ºC (-4ºF). However, they cannot be charged at temperatures lower than about 0ºC (32ºF)…

Keep in mind that these critical numbers represent the internal temperature of the battery, not the ambient air temperature… Fortunately, each Antigravity battery incorporates a sophisticated battery management system (BMS), which prevents charging when the temperature drops too low…

Very high temperatures can also affect LiFePO4 performance. The listed upper limit for discharging the Antigravity deep-cycle battery is 55ºC (131ºF). For this reason, some owners install their lithium “house” batteries inside the vehicle or camper rather than in the engine compartment.

Have to imagine 131° F isn't all that unusual in the 914 engine bay, and I have mixed feelings about relocating the battery to the front of the car.
vitamin914
QUOTE(horizontally-opposed @ Feb 22 2022, 06:33 PM) *



So, following up, I wonder if the issues that 911 people aren't running into with Anti-Gravity batteries but @raynekat did run into is related to the 914 battery being in a hot engine bay?

From https://www.exploringoverland.com/overland-...-worth-the-cost

Most lithium automotive batteries, including the Antigravity unit, can be used (i.e. discharged) at temperatures down to -20ºC (-4ºF). However, they cannot be charged at temperatures lower than about 0ºC (32ºF)…

Keep in mind that these critical numbers represent the internal temperature of the battery, not the ambient air temperature… Fortunately, each Antigravity battery incorporates a sophisticated battery management system (BMS), which prevents charging when the temperature drops too low…

Very high temperatures can also affect LiFePO4 performance. The listed upper limit for discharging the Antigravity deep-cycle battery is 55ºC (131ºF). For this reason, some owners install their lithium “house” batteries inside the vehicle or camper rather than in the engine compartment.

Have to imagine 131° F isn't all that unusual in the 914 engine bay, and I have mixed feelings about relocating the battery to the front of the car.



That explains why Li batteries have not become more popular drop-ins for Pb-acid (the very high price doesn't help either). Here in Canada or the northern US, there are days or weeks where the temperature never gets higher than 20 deg F, sometimes much colder. You can discharge but you can't charge won't get you too far. Not sure how Teslas get away with this problem of charging at low temps - self battery heaters?. I bought a 40V Li powered Ryobi snowblower (yeah, moment of stupidity) and returned it the next day when the battery charger refused to charge the sub freezing batteries out in the garage - had to bring stuff inside. Never had to bring the gas can inside! So much for advertising the power of gas with the convenience of electricity.

I never plan to have my 914 running in freezing weather, but it does get stinkin hot in Toronto during the summer (definitely in SF) and the engine bay is hot and there is no built battery in cooler. I think the biggest issue with the Li is it needs built in battery management electronics to keep it safe and working (trying to mimic a Pb battery). My Li tool batteries won't charge until they cool down too. Problem with the electronic management is I have no control over what it does and when, which makes it seem unpredictable - although it is kinda neat to get stats from the battery via bluetooth. I think it may be better to invest in an AGM with a larger alternator than pay the premium for a Li battery with worrying where to put it or what safety mode it might be in.

I think the alternator is key here. With all accessories running it really doesn't matter what type of battery you have if you can't supply enough power to keep the battery full.
Jim C
QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 13 2022, 01:50 PM) *

QUOTE(Literati914 @ Feb 13 2022, 12:44 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 12 2022, 09:31 PM) *

..
I have this one:

https://www.optimabatteries.com/products/redtop-34-78

It was $260 from advance auto, but I also get a 10% military discount which brought it down to $250 with tax.


Hey @Van B , from the picture at your link (optima 34/78) ..with the side terminals facing towards the engine compartment, aren’t the positive and negative top posts in the wrong location to be ideal? Are you and others just “stretching” the cables over to where they need to be, or maybe just running with the side terminals towards the wheel wells ? Sorry if I’ve got that wrong, I had an optima in a 914 long ago but I’m going off memory at the moment, thanks.


.

Fits perfectly!

Did the hold down come with the battery?
Van B
It did. I think it was a little break off part or was taped on. I can’t remember.
rjames
QUOTE(zoomCat @ Feb 18 2022, 10:21 AM) *

Does anyone know if the Rennline mount for the Odyssey PC925 simply bolts it? Does the version with the disconnect switch interfere with anything? This would be for a six, so no rain tray.

Thanks!


The 914 specific Odyssey PC925 mount uses the stock 914 hold down. Mine has the spot for the cutoff switch, but I don't have the switch so I can't tell you if the switch itself interferes with anything.
raynekat
My experience with the Anti-Gravity batteries.

Light weight - yes.
Starts the car - yes.
Good at running lots of load - not so much.

If you've got the headlights, wipers, fans on...the battery can't keep up.

This is why I ended up ditching the Anti-Gravity and going with an AGM style battery in the end.
Montreal914
Got an Odyssey PC925 7-8 years ago and have been pleased with it. It is small and light. smile.gif

https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-PC925-Automo...y/dp/B0002ILK72

I've been trying to keep it charged while I am restoring my car but I probably will have to buy a new one when I put the car back on the road.
rjames
QUOTE(Montreal914 @ Jun 30 2022, 09:07 PM) *

Got an Odyssey PC925 7-8 years ago and have been pleased with it. It is small and light. smile.gif

https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-PC925-Automo...y/dp/B0002ILK72

I've been trying to keep it charged while I am restoring my car but I probably will have to buy a new one when I put the car back on the road.


Odyssey documentation states that the battery can be stored for 2 years at a fully charged state. If you're not driving the car, charge the battery and put it on a shelf.
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