Who is out there that can reliably build and warranty a completely new 2270?

Preferable near me in SoCal..

Opinions of these options. CB Performance. FAT/ Rimco. Scat Performance.
?

I had a 2056 built by FAT over the winter of 2020/2021. Seems like a good quality build. I got a chance to remove the rockers, pushrods, and tubes to install Tangerine's stainless tubes and chromoly pushrods and got a decent look and everything was installed nicely.

First oil change at 100 miles was clean, next one at 3000 and cut open the filter and it was clean. Took a couple of weekend trips with it this year, no issues.

I'd use them again.

To bad you're too far away, I'm just starting a spec turn key build 2320cc, but it won't be cheap and shipping's a bitch.
I don't usually like to sell my engines unless I install them myself. Just an FYI

Soup to nuts build:
914 2.0 case, clearanced
Raby/DPR welded 80mm crank, nitrated
new flywheel
full balance
SCAT chevy rods
german bearings, Clevite rod bearings
KB's 96mm (Nickies option)
Raby cam and lifters, (similar to WEB 163/86b)
44x38mm 2.0 heads, dual springs, SS valves, hardened retainers, seats, keepers, shims, etc
Manton PR, Porsche adjusters, mod 1.7 rockers, spacers and all the valve train kit
KEP stage 1 pressure plate, stock Sachs disc
new cooler
All 2.0 tin and shroud, fully powder coated (black with silver shroud), all the little 914rubber bits, rebuilt Bosch alt, etc, etc, etc.

44mm Webers, rebuilt Italian, tall manifolds, cast filter tops
Tangirine cable linkage
Mallory dizzy, modified with Pertronix igniter
Pertronix coil, MSD (etc) option
Magnacore plug wires
Tangirine 1-3/4" header, ceramic coated with SS evo muffler and hanger.
I likely missed a few things.

Expected HP ballpark figure 170hp .... or if you like I could lie and say 220hp like some builders.

Another fat build (race motor) right after GregAmy’s. Haven’t fired it yet, but happy with the build to this point. Prepare to wait though…

Sounds great! What kinda price would you expect for a build like that?

we build many 914 engines here but only stock fuel injected versions
jake does a good job on the high performance ones

One of his more recent FB posts Jake was stepping away from custom type IV engine direct orders and just build what he wants and then will release them through LN Eng. to handle the distribution, paperwork and customer contact when and if they become available.


"No more direct human interaction for me. I am moving to my final engine, one displacement, one stage, and one proven result. All will be the same, and I’ll build one when I want to. No more orders, no more timelines. No more budgets. No more opinions, comments or telephones and messages. No more groups, forums, or bullshit!"
"I sold the T4 Store to LN Engineering in 2012. They will now sell my engines, in the very limited quantities that they will be built."

Too bad some of us never never learned to play in the sandbox .....

Well at upwards of $40k now an engine I guess you can do that.

That’s the plan we have for our 911 engines. Build what we want and then sell it to whoever wants it. I know exactly where Jake is coming from and I applaud him.

I'm going the same way, wife retires in one year and we plan to travel. I have about 2 years of work on the books and I'm also going to spec build a '72 /6 conversion, after that I'm going to get real picky about the jobs I take on.
The engine above I happen to have everything and it's all cleaned and ready to go together, but even then it will still be 3-4 months as I have other work that needs to be done first.

Am I sensing a void in the marketplace for this service?

I don't think its a void.
I think that the hassle, skill, parts, and communication take more than 24 hours a day
and the prices need to reflect that to justify the process

the market is moving..
and this is an adjustment.

there are places still to have motors build.
my race shop has a 2 year wait list... they insist on installing, breaking it in, and dyno-ing the motor.

the cost is HUGE...
and no warranty

I just don't think the effort involved by a skilled person or shop... will support 5K engines with warranties.... maybe china can back fill that niche? (not likely)

we are loosing soo much skill
I've been building a 50year old motorcycle for a few years
every one of the specialist shops are amazing... but they are also very old owners with very unique knowledge...

all of them will be gone in 5-10 years
all of their knowledge will be gone too.


owners can do it themselves... or pay the pro's what they earn through hard work
$$$$$

There is but at the same time, it’s not an easy service to provide.
Parts are hard to get and labor to do it right isn’t cheap. There is a much bigger market to build 911 engines and the owners tend to have deeper pockets.

It’s very similar to restoring a chassis. Metalwork and paint all cost the same for materials and labor but easier to justify on a $200k car (911) vs 50k (914).

Eric at PMB is putting out some top level cars both four and six. I would ask him about his engine services.

I think it's more than that. It's the way people are nowdays as well.

It's like one of the posts I saw that was since moved and shut down.


The guy is one of the nicest people I know....yet over the internet someone...also unamed posts a complaint about a favor he was doing....the OP thought of it as a service and a busness.

It's about the relationship.....nothing more. Who wants to deal with BS like that?

NOT me.

Eric has had a fair share of that BS including all the employee problems....ect ....ect. He does great work but more....a human being and great guy.

Bottom line:

Ya all make lousy customers for the average engine builder.

Too needy, too demanding, and too willing to sue the engine builder for damage that you created for yourself (i.e. didn't fill with oil, didn't break in properly, over-rev on cold engines, etc.).

This is a natural outcome of a society has become less civil and overly litigious. You (We) cannot force those with hard acquired skills and talents to work for bottom dollar pricing and put up with .

Yup, quickly becoming standard practice. Mainly as a means to protect themselves from litigation.

Priced a dyno lately? Not cheap. That overhead has to be covered in the cost of the engine.

It used to be way less common to have to have a dyno, but this is quickly becoming the norm for any good engine builder.

We just built a 3.2. We probably won’t dyno it but we did install in a car and already ran it for 50 miles. Will probably do another 50 and then pull it out to sell. It’s a lot easier than finding a small leak or trying to tune once it’s with the buyer.

And it does run great!

We have no intention to build T4 engines.

I had scat counter balance my crankshaft, rebuild my rods, lighten my flywheel, and balance the lot. They did a good job for me.

Allan F. at Aase Motors (O/C) can build you an awesome T4, he built ours for POC short track in 2008; and extremely still reliable today.
Once your Newly built engine runs on their stand, makes proper o/p, has the cam broken in: the warranty is over. They have built about 6 (combined) T4 , 6 cyl engines for me...all still running strong 3 decades in.
So goes the liability on custom race engines.

I've had 6 motors built at my race shop... 2 - 6cylinders, and 4 type4's...

every single time my mechanic tells me the same thing when preps me and I'm leaving the shop...

"this motor is like a glass full of water, I'm handing it to you... you decide how fast you want to pour the water out of the glass"

Great testimonial here, might be a good idea to call Allan F

This is true. I tagged the line for aircooled engines last September. I am now completing the final “built to order” T4 engine this month. After it I have one more 993 engine to build, which is my 4.1L spec, making 440HP. Plans are in place to build my favorite combinations and have them be sold without wait lists, and without prior commitments through LN Engineering as a retail sale. LN will provide all after sales support, and will handle all of the admin. They took overe the Type 4 Store a decade ago, and that worked out extremely well.
As the engines are built, I will take hundreds of photos of the core engine, all machining, head prep, flow bench work and shoot multiple videos of the process as well. I will do a ton of work during assembly so I don’t have to fool around with direct user interface afterward. My full instructions for supporting components, service intervals, first start preparation, and etc will accompany every engine. There’s no reason for anyone to talk to me with this level of information, and detail put into the build.

Do not expect to see any engines offered until mid- 2023. I’m tasking a lot of time off after the transition is completed. I’ll build 1-2 engines per month between T4s and aircooled 911, mixed with my R- Series engines for the 996/997/991 platforms.

After all these years I realized that I never started this business to be a business person. I started this business to build engines my way, and answer to no one. The past two years have really soured my outlook on exchanges with humans, and I realized that the chef never meets those who devour what he creates. People don’t think any less of that chef if they don’t get to meet or talk to him, right????

I will be able to focus on development and building more than ever after the phone lines, and email addresses are forwarded to LN. I belong in the shop, not on the phone, or answering questions in emails. We have a trained staff to do that, and its time that I do whatever the hell I want to do.
I wanted to just flat out retire, but too many people still depend on me to offer them employment, and they’ve been here for over 2 decades. I had to do this to retain my sanity. Purchasers have become damn near impossible to please, and these purchases are emotionally driven to the point that waiting for over a year for an engine tears people apart. Now if you can hit the “buy button” fast enough you can have my engine in a week, for the first time ever. I won’t allow pre- sales, or lists because I don’t want a clock or a calendar to impact my life any longer. We have not been late with an engine since covid began, and that has taken extreme focus and effort.
I was determined to finish all work on time, and my final built to order engine will be done 1 month early. Find that anywhere else today.

Realistically building to order today is a disaster, because you never know what part you promise to use, that you can’t get. Building the engines I want, and selling them once completed means that this element of variability is removed completely.

No engine of mine will be given to LN to sell until it is 100% completed, dyno tested, and crated for shipment. I don’t even want to know thew purchaser’s name. I’ll slap a label on it, and fire it away. My General Manager, Jud will be going to work at LN at the end of the year, and he will handle these sales, and support… That way he knows all the purchasers over the last decade personally, and can support what we’ve built without me.

I just want to be left alone.

You guys will see new stuff rolling out soon… It will be good, and you’ll like it. You may not see my name mentioned, but you’ll know that I was the guy that developed it.
Here’s a sample.. The first plug from our new molds for a complete set of carbon fiber 914/4 engine tin.. No more fighting with rotted tin that is bent and twisted. A true bolt on set. Its not being done in CF for looks, but more so the tin can be shaped exactly like the factory tin. I plan to do them in clear resin, kevlar, virgin CF and plain old black.

Interesting

PMB (Eric) is also building engines now. He is currently building a fuel injected 2.3L plant for me, and my 2056 will go into my bus.

Zach

I can only imagine the drama behind the scenes that has led to these words. I can feel it in the post.

Never having met the man . . . I know exactly where he's coming from and I say that never having had to put up with 1/1000 of the BS I'm sure he's had to endure.

For all you guys wondering why good engine builders are so hard to find. Bookmark and re-read this post next time you ask that question.

Honestly, one only needs to frequent a forum (like this one*) or follow a social media group (like the 914 ones) where the same questions get asked over and over and over and over and over...

...and over and over and over again, when all it takes is just 5 minutes on a search. Or just look up at that topic that's pinned to the top.


And that's just one very small example of why dealing with people today sucks. I wish I had the luxury of working anonymously behind a paywall...

GA

*And this one is nowhere near as bad as some.

What I would like is an updated #8 DVD BugMe video with any modifications from the original video. Seeing as how that one so super helpful from teardown to build up, it would also be excellent to do the same for a 6 cyl.

- Sorry OP this didn't really help with your question.

Many of the best builders were driven offline due to noise, arguments, egos, and fighting with up and coming builders.
Much of the talent is still out there but you may need to seek engine builder the old way, which is to get a referral

Rich

I understand and sympathize Jake. At my age, I have BTDT and do not want a lousy T-shirt. Nice shirts are okay. I do like the look of the "tin". Tired of looking for good original tin. Please let us know when it is available to be ordered.

I have trusted my engine build to Mark Henry, and will wait for him to deliver.

Not many of us are good managers, it's that simple.

Some of us have superior talents and can visualize the project and see it through with great results.

Very small number of us have both of these within one body. Personally, I was brought into the trades at an early age and worked my trade(s) for may years. Most recently, 20 years ago, I moved into management and am learning everyday. ONE thing I have learned is "not every customer is a good customer". I often walk away from a potential PITA. My team and I have completed the historic building restoration of many buildings and homes in the Western New York area over the past 40+ years and I can say without rival. Technicians are most often not managers.

As I am approaching 70 years I am considering backing away from our historic restoration company and rebuilding T4 motors for therapy.

Randy, call George at European Motor Works in Hawthorne to see if they're still building motors

The issue is there’s no market for it. The free YouTube videos have killed it. People would rather watch a peer fumble his way through a build the wrong way, as pay what it costs for a pro video. 22 years ago when I did the Vol 8 that wasn’t the story.. No YouTube, and people appreciate professional efforts.
I did a Porsche M9X video that was 15 hours of step by step detail, going through a whole build. 6 cameras, 140 hours of raw content, and people bitch that it costs too much. They’d rather watch a guy ruin his engine case soaking it in Purple Power (true) because they relate to him. They hate vendors, even if we are the only peole that give a damn about their car.

I might possibly do online and hands- on T4 classes, but they won’t be cheap.

Actually, I don’t really have issues with 914 owners or T4 buyers. The issues I have are with the owners of the more modern Porsches I build engines for.
I have been using the T4 builds as therapy for the past 5 years. An escape.
I guess the main thing I’m done with is opinions, and entitlement.

I like engines. They don’t argue, have no opinions, and when they piss you off you can just hold them wide open till they scatter. Yes, I’ve done that before. More than once.

When people listen to respond, rather than listening to learn, you’ll never teach them anything.

I'll second Eric. We talked about what I wanted in my motor, what my expectations were and of course, budget. He found a good fit for all of those. Mine happens to be a six but I know he could do the same for a four. The days of $5k engines are gone and rightfully so. The parts and the knowledge to build them right have gone up like everything else. I signed up with him and communication has been fantastic and I have no concerns that the final product won't be exactly what I want and what he said he would build.

Great quote!

I have ordered the #8 DVD last week even though some people say it needs to be updated.

And I would gladly order a new version if you came out with one because as the old saying goes, you get what you pay for.

Maybe a group buy type of deal can be done on here to raise the necessary $ for the new video.

As for your hands on class offer, willing to share your knowledge is a big thing. I can say from personal experience that as a DIY guy, when you approach an engine builder and tell them that you want to learn, you just scare them away. I can understand the reaction since the customer brings a lot of noise from forums or groups.

There's another that says there's a difference between "information" and "knowledge".

Most people nowday's listen for information...and then believe what they want to believe no matter what they've heard or read.

I'll second EMW, and or Eric. Just depends what you want.

I've talked to Eric about similar issues...and he's had em as well.

Jake Raby. Our man Jeff here does nothing larger than 2100

Jake,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on our engines.
Wishing you continued success

A few years ago, a friend of mine who is an old timer VW type 4 builder took on a 914 engine to build for someone. A few weeks into it, I get a call from the car owner wanting me to finish his motor. I said, so what happened? "He (my builder friend) told me to come pick up my sh*t" (meaning the car and a disassembled engine) and get it out of here". "He said you might be able to help me". Not liking the idea of building an engine I did not disassemble, I was more than a little hesitant. I did a little investigation, called my friend, and found out more details of why this deal went bad. "Non stop calls, texts and emails". The builder was bombarded with questions, and things the Millennial type of guy read on the forums, and "hey can we do this?", and it just led this old timer over the wall. At the time, I thought, man this was not cool. You are leaving this 914er with a basket full up parts and it is very likely to leave one more 914 perpetually in the non operational camp. I offered to step in, but I don't think the guy liked my fee, which was padded a bit because, as I said, I hate building what someone took apart - you always will be missing something. So that's how it ended for me. It's now been several years, but that episode stuck with me. Having done more work on other people's cars over the years, I can empathize more (although I still think it was a bad thing to do). But there is something to be said about boundaries. We now live in this age where, just because people can easily contact you with text messages, etc, they don't shy at all away from doing so. And if you don't respond immediately it's like you get another damn text. I'm still an email kind of guy. Because it give the recipients a chance to think before responding. For every thought, you get a text, where email could at least consolidate items. Email can be abused too, of course, but it seems to me that the era of constant communication has a lot to do with the behavior of entitlement, of lack of consideration for the other person. Someone said something about about listening just enough to respond. Yeah, I think that's part of it too.

That reminds me of a sign that I used to see in many shops. It went something like:

Shop Rates
$50 per hour
$70 per hour if you watch
$100 per hour if you help


Now we can add
$150 per hour if you text

@dr914 George - Just curious, do you think there a market for performance builds on the T4 engines? Or are there just too few of us air cooled folks to support this added power.

DaveB

Any of you familiar with Brothers in Ontario, California? I've heard good things about their work.

www.brothersvwmachineshop.com

Not to reply for George but IMO too many variables.
Some years ago Jake & McMark (remember him) teamed up to offer a cookie cutter engine service ($5K engine) with some tailored & uprated components.
Was moderately successful but I do recall there were supposedly as many positive as negative experiences mostly due to buyers desires, expectations & abilities.

Too few people wanting the product and too little profit for the time and effort involved.

Too many people that think it's simple to hot rod motors.

The miracles of modern engines have a whole lot of people thinking that it's normal to crank out 400 HP and that it's magically going to happen for a 50 year old, air cooled, T4 motor!

And then they expect a warranty when the builder has no control over what sort of clown will be over revving the motor on the 1st drive with it and then turn around and want the damage covered on "warranty".

Just stop and think for a moment, how many people you know or indirectly know that have bought something at a store, used it for their purpose, and then turned around and returned it to the store for a refund even though the product worked fine? They just expected the store to suck up that loss. Immoral.

Now imagine same type of customer wants you to rebuild an engine and warranty it.

Any wonder T4 builders are hard to come by?

Being in small business for many years and having dealt with many idiots, I can say with confidence: "not every customer is a good customer"

Most recently when I interview a potential customer and if I am unable to gather a sense of rapport, I simply inform them we are too busy, or the work is out of our scope.

I have fired many customers and have not looked back for a second. There is a satisfaction in receiving a sincere "thank you" from a satisfied customer

There are many takers out there looking for the best of the best for the least of the least, I let them go elsewhere

As far as demand goes, there's plenty for what I offer. 25 years ago I would have jumped at most every job that comes my way today. Back then what I wanted is what I have today. Now that I have it, I want what I had 20 years ago.. That was a simpler life without the hassles of retaining what I have built... Life was both better, and easier when I was working hard to build the business. Retention is much harder, more stressful, and risky than climbing the ladder. I used to hate working in a cold converted barn in the mountains of N Georgia in the winter time, but today I miss that simplicity and have returned to it in many ways. I'm not quite back to the days of working in that barn with a dirt floor, but I miss the wood heater.

Covid changed everything for everyone. It made us stupid, and it reduced our patience. Couple the with just a small dose of "cancel culture" and entitlement and welcome to 2022.

Today I just do what I want to do for the people that I think will really appreciate it, and not be a pain in the ass. Engines get more time put into them than ever before, but I still don't keep track of the hours of life that go into creating them. Doing this work is all passion.

I could spend less time building a 440HP Porsche M9X engine for a 997.1 and make twice the money, but I tend to leave those up to my employees while I play with 50+ year old engines that make 4X the factory power.

Not everyone is a jerk, but you have to go into each potential project with the reality that the buyer could be the one who ruins the last 30 years of your life. All it takes is one. Just one.