Hello everyone. Went for a drive today and car ran great, stopped for fuel and when I started back up I heard a horrible rattle coming from cylinders 3 and 4 valve cover. After a tow home I found this. At least 1/4" gap from rocker to valve tip. I turned the engine over slowly and did get the rocker arm to slightly open valve. I thought how could a solid lifter collapse?
I also pulled the rockers and pushrod. The pushrod was not bent. I looked down the pushrod tube and saw 'C' clips on the lifters. Is there such a thing as solid lifters with 'C' clips?
Thank's for the help.Click to view attachment

Probably not solid lifters, once the push rod is out you can pull out the lifter with your finger, after you remove the push rod tube.

Thanks, I'm working on getting the tube out now without crushing it.

Pushrod tubes aren't expensive. I spent hours trying to remove one without crushing it before finally taking the vice grips to it. Now I have one shiny one.
Good luck! Hope it's a simple fix.

Ok got the tube and lifter out, just needed a little twisting.
This looks collapsed, almost 3/4”. Click to view attachment

Hydraulic lifter

Better than a dropped valve seat.

It was obvious that it’s hydraulic once I pulled it out. I was told this engine was built with a Webcam 86 so assumed it had solid lifters. Now what to do? Solid lifter swap.

lifter brand and quality is often matched to the cam
I believe cams for hydraulic lifters are mild

there are a number of experts on here (not me) that can advise
but my limited knowledge is that you may have to go back with another matching hydraulic lifter to work with that cam profile.

or split the case and replace the cam with matching solid lifters
brant

I'd double check with Web on that lifter. Their performance lifters look like hydraulic lifters, but somehow work as standard lifters. I just finished installing a set on my engine paired with their 86a cam. Threw me for a loop when I took the lifters out of the box.

I'd also compare the stem heights on the valves and do a leakdown check. Higher likelyhood that you have a dropped seat rather than a lifter issue. BTDT.

Have you taken the lifter apart yet? Wondering if the spring is broken.

if it was Hydro youd normally have other somewhat obvious signs like solid steel push rods (not the OE thick wall alum)

I did see Webcam lifters that looked like hydraulic lifters. These look exactly the same.
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/WCAM...khoCI70QAvD_BwE
https://aapistons.com/collections/lifters/p...-racing-lifters
Oh, the pushrods are aluminum.

The ones you posted the Pelican link for are the exact ones I installed. Web's site lists them as mechanical, and they are still set with the normal lash the stock lifters use. Called them to verify after I unboxed them.

pretty simple at this point to verify, pull another lifter & compare the two. My bet is they'll be the same. Looks like a seat.

Sorry to say, but based on your description (especially the noise), you're probably looking at a valve seat that let go.

Here's a very useful tool that you can feed either through the spark plug hole or manifold. It's useful for many other jobs too and is less than $20 delivered. Please note that this one works on an android phone. If you have an iPhone get a different one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B071HYRPND?p...ob_b_asin_title

Best wishes with the fix.

Thanks guys. I have that same camera for Iphone. I'll measure stem heights and scope it tomorrow and get a leak down tester.

Do you have a dead sound when cranking the starter? The starter will make some noise when turning over a cylinder that has compression, and no noise (or rather, less noise) when turning over a dead hole.

Check the height of the valve tips when the valves are closed. If the one is lower than the others, something is holding it open. That something is usually the valve seat.

--DD

From the picture, doesn't look like a dropped seat, a differential test would help confirm that. That rocker looks pretty far "back" compared to the others while the top of the stem looks in line.

If it's just a lifter, agree with others, ensure to confirm your cam, get a matched lifter.

You may get lucky that's all it is.

Well...I think this mystery is solved
Click to view attachment

Uh oh, that picture paints a clearer state of things. I was way off, does look like either a bent valve or dropped seat. From the picture, that one spring looks compressed a little more than the others. If you can get a differential gauge set on that cyl, you will probably hear air through the intake (that's the intake valve right?)

Presume the other 7 are waiting to happen. Sorry for your woes.

I was rooting for the flattened lifter. Darn.

Have you done a compression check or a leakdown test?

Def sorry for your woes, especially with the summer season just coming on.

valve seat loose and valve stuck down classic signs ,IMO if solid lifter you would have a bent pushrod but instead the hyd lifter collapsed ?,Iam a little concerned about pushrods appears they are not the steel ones's as one other member pointed out.
I would pull the engine and pop of that head off,if it is this issue you need to check the out for valve seat issues on the other head.
Not good news but could have been a lot worse .

Thanks guys for all the well wishes. I'll probably just take the head off and hope for the best.
Root_Werks, yes intake on #4

rhodyguy I am thinking what you're thinking...what about the 7 others?

porschetub, those are solid lifters, they just look hydraulic, crazy huh, They are from web cam. The pushrods are aluminum and didn't bend. Is it safe to assume the seat gave way and the valve is hanging up? That's what I'm hoping for.

These heads had 44 intake and 38 exhaust and had some work done to them.

Maybe jumping the gun but any thoughts on new heads?

Mike Damone: I woke up in a great mood; I don't know what the hell happened. (Fast Times at Ridgemont high)

I honestly don't know what to tell you. This is the point where project creep flows in and the cash flows out.

Exactly, with 50 years old stuff, you may want to look into new heads. My local old school head guy has passed on a couple sets of heads I have brought to him for reconditioning

Most of the guys that do head work will no longer accept the job on used heads because they can no longer stand behind the work on old castings.
So new heads are “almost” the only way

The other 7 seats are suspect now that you know the part has aged out from too many heat cycles

certainly the rest may do the same,were the replacement seats put in correctly or maybe the heads are too weak/soft to support them ?.
The shop that used to do my VW heads won't touch air cooled ones now.

I'm thinking It's better to just get new heads. I've been doing a little searching here for options. What are your guys thoughts? AMC? AA?

I'd jump on one of the FB groups and find Tabari Andrade. Not sure if he's a member here. He's in CA, and can source/machine parts. When I was getting parts together for my engine he mentioned he can build a set of heads out pretty nice. Worth looking into.

I haven’t researched lately
I believe the new heafs are fine
But if you want the big valves. You’ll have machine them still and have the seats changed. Didn’t Len sell them. He would be a trustworthy machinist too.

Sold out, these would be the closest thing to what I have.

https://aapistons.com/collections/stock-per...eads-44x36-pair

Any of the new heads require better components installed to be trustworthy. This held true with the AMC Spanish made heads, as well as these newer units made in China.
Valves and springs are the biggest question mark, as well as valve seat material, and seat installation.
Len stopped rebuilding OE head castings a long time ago. If you buy his heads based on either of the new castings available, he is reworking those in many ways, balancing the chambers, installing proven hardware and etc.
Once he's done with them, I'd say that the AMC or China heads are on par with each other.
Out of the box from either manufacturer is a crapshoot.

The crapshoot associated with OE head castings is even bigger, because over 45 years they've been overheated, hacked on, welded, have stripped threads, and will pull exhaust studs in most cases. Heads do have a service life, even 911 heads.

Thanks Jake. Sounds like Len is the way to go.

LN Engineering website.

NOTE: Due to limited availability and high demand, we will not be offering our Camper Special, RS+, or LE200 heads for purchase outside of our engine kits.

The lack of affordable rebuilders and drying up of spare parts is making engine swaps that much more do-able...and that much more attractive.

My vote is for the Honda K20Z3 with drive-by-wire. Massive support for those engines and easy peasy build to 200 wheel ponies. I'm wiring up a 2008 Civic Si with AEM Inifity 5 engine management as we type (we get ~230 wheel with cams and exhaust).

The AMC heads reworked into 2.0L configuration have been working great for me, installed in 2012 well over 30k miles no issues.


Click to view attachment

Hey mgphoto. Who reworked your heads?

DRD Racing Heads, unfortunately Darren closed his business about 8 years ago, sold off his tooling to a big VW rebuilder in Anaheim CA, can’t remember the name.
Used the Type IV Store valves, studs and springs. AMC casting is very “beefy” to make modifications.

There might be a void in this T4 head rebuilding business, OR the guys know this 50 years old stuff can be problematic (per Jake)