Hi Everyone,

I've been learking for a while, but finally introducing myself to the board. Great resource, I've learned so much about my car, and gotten some good laughs by reading this board. Anyway... I'm rebuilding the tranny on my 1974 1.8 using Red Beard's and Bondo's articles, and a little bit of Haynes. I removed the drive shaft and to my dismay, the intermediate plate bearing came out in peices, cage was shattered, just as shown in Red Beard's article. I'm glad I'm finding this now, but dollar signs went through my head as ball bearings dropped to the floor. Pelican has the cheapest replacement around, about $180. Knowing that this tranny is similiar to some other's (Audi, VW, other Porsche models), is there a less expensive replacement bearing that I could use instead? How about any generic bearings that have worked for others? Thanks...

- Bryan

Welcome...sorry, I don't know the answer to your question...transmissions are the one item I have never played with...I do know the prices for the parts are very expensive and the thought of rebuilding my transmission makes me ill due to the costs involved.....it also appears that the market for used transmissions is rising as well.

possibly someone will chime in here with new information.
but as of last I heard, there are no substitute bearings that work. And I believe Redbeard and others have explored this extensively.

I also believe that the common opinion, is that if the intermediate plate bearing you have is bad, then it is likely time to replace the other expensive bearing....

that may be just prevenative or not necessary.
just a train of thought I have heard before.

brant

Bryan,
There may be good news or bad news.

If you take and remove your bearing in question,from the shaft it is on,turn it sideways.

on the side,there will be a series of letters and numbers.

The bearing will have printed on it the manufacturer.IE.koyo,fafner,nsg,fag,or others.

that'll at least tell you who made it.

Opposite the manufacturer,is the actual part#.All bearings will have one.

This will be the iffy part,as some bearings,are automotive specific.Meaning that when you take the part# and old bearing with you to your local bearing distributor he may tell you "you have to go to the dealer".

He may be able to mike the bearing out,and provide a cheap substitute,or not.

You can also get automotive spec bearings a little cheaper thru some transmission shops.IE. AAMCO
or others cause they need rebuild parts on site,but if a bearing is automotive specific and it's a 200.00
bearing.I doubt you are gonna get by with a 20.00 substitute.

I've B.T.D.T. with my 915 trans.
Ron

Try an independent parts person. I buy some of my parts from Autoparts Foriegn in NH.
1-800-682-2443. Just bought some CIS injectors that pelican had for ~50.00 for $30.00 from him. One man place, low overhead but conversant in Porsche, benz, bmw, etc. On something obscure like the bearings, it would be good to have the p/n's.

QUOTE (RON S. @ Aug 5 2005, 12:10 PM)

Bryan, There may be good news or bad news. If you take and remove your bearing in question,from the shaft it is on,turn it sideways. on the side,there will be a series of letters and numbers. The bearing will have printed on it the manufacturer.IE.koyo,fafner,nsg,fag,or others. that'll at least tell you who made it. Opposite the manufacturer,is the actual part#.All bearings will have one. This will be the iffy part,as some bearings,are automotive specific.Meaning that when you take the part# and old bearing with you to your local bearing distributor he may tell you "you have to go to the dealer". He may be able to mike the bearing out,and provide a cheap substitute,or not. You can also get automotive spec bearings a little cheaper thru some transmission shops.IE. AAMCO or others cause they need rebuild parts on site,but if a bearing is automotive specific and it's a 200.00 bearing.I doubt you are gonna get by with a 20.00 substitute. I've B.T.D.T. with my 915 trans. Ron

Been there- done that. Unfortunately, the bearing guy said it is a manufacturer specific item - the cheapest source will be discount parts places like Pelican, etc.

Yah, this is along the lines of what I was thinking $$$

Side note, I actually have a "donor" transmission (bought it on ebay a couple years back) turned out to have a broken shft lever "finger" (whatever the part is called that moves the shift rods), a cracked transmission mount ear (re-welded), and some wierd blue rubber gasket sealer... I'm kind of anal, so I didn't really trust this ebay transmission too much. It was supposedly rebuilt, but with no documentation, so I got it for cheap. I figured now that I'm rebuilding my original tranny, I'd use the other for donor parts if needed. I opened it up last night to steal the intermediate plate bearing. Wouldn't you know it... It too, had already apparantly shattered on one side and been replaced with a single cage bearing assembly layed in place where the previous cage had shattered. Even the replacement cheapo cage has a few cracks in it. I knew there was a reason I didn't trust this ebay transmission!

I think going used is your best bet, but who knows how long that will last.. it all depends on how much you value your time. I *might* have one or two of those bearings in usable shape, I'd have to check. (Most of the transmissions I took apart had broken cages, and I've sold some parts already)

Thanks again the input. Bondo - I'm going to contemplate this one... new or used. Part of says just go new since I have the thing open, but I'm not positive about that. If you have any used replacements that you'd be willing to sell, feel free to let me know.

- Bryan

....and while you are in there....

put your fingers inside the race that is pressed into the transmission case and see if you can turn the bearing race. Believe me this is bad news if you can and it also seems to be truely common. Check the ones in the intermediate plate as well.

Brad? are you still here? Want to chime in?

It all depends on what your plans are for the tranny. If it is a stock street car, etc, rebuilding with used parts is the best thing. You can get a whole tail shift tranny usually for $125. You should get at least 2 synchros and, 2 good dog teeth and 1 good slider. You have a 50% chance of a good intermediate plate bearing.

If it is fot the track or high HP, I would recomend a rebuild with new parts.

James

I replaced the ball type bearings on the lay shaft in my BMW 2002 4sp with tapered roller bearings. This is the weak link in the early BMW tranny.

I brought my ball bearings into an industrial bearing store. He measured them and crossed the dimensions for me. Roller type bearings are far superior. Anyone ever try this on our 914 box?

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Aug 5 2005, 09:12 PM)

I replaced the ball type bearings on the lay shaft in my BMW 2002 4sp with tapered roller bearings. This is the weak link in the early BMW tranny. I brought my ball bearings into an industrial bearing store. He measured them and crossed the dimensions for me. Roller type bearings are far superior. Anyone ever try this on our 914 box?

nice idea -
worth a try im sure!

AA

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Aug 5 2005, 08:15 PM)

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Aug 5 2005, 09:12 PM) I replaced the ball type bearings on the lay shaft in my BMW 2002 4sp with tapered roller bearings. This is the weak link in the early BMW tranny. I brought my ball bearings into an industrial bearing store. He measured them and crossed the dimensions for me. Roller type bearings are far superior. Anyone ever try this on our 914 box? nice idea - worth a try im sure! AA

Oh BTW: the cost was way! waY! cheaper than the stock units.

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Aug 5 2005, 09:12 PM)

I replaced the ball type bearings on the lay shaft in my BMW 2002 4sp with tapered roller bearings. This is the weak link in the early BMW tranny. I brought my ball bearings into an industrial bearing store. He measured them and crossed the dimensions for me. Roller type bearings are far superior. Anyone ever try this on our 914 box?

It would have to be two sets of tapered roller bearings, as the intermediate plate bearings are what limit movement fore/aft for the shaft. I agree that it would be better, but I really don't think there's enough room. It'd be easier to add a trans cooler and bearing squirter, which I'm told solves the problem. (the upper bearings are above the fluid level)

QUOTE (sgomes @ Aug 5 2005, 07:19 PM)

....and while you are in there.... put your fingers inside the race that is pressed into the transmission case and see if you can turn the bearing race. Believe me this is bad news if you can and it also seems to be truely common. Check the ones in the intermediate plate as well. Brad? are you still here? Want to chime in?

Wow, this just get's more interesting all the time! The joy of 30+ year old cars!



Sure enough, I stuck my finger in the original main case and I can spin the pressed in race. The donor case is okay. I can move the drive shaft race on the int. plate of donor tranny, but the races in the original tranny intermediate plate are fine. I'm confusing myself, but you know what I mean. It looks like this is truly going to be a conglomeration of parts from two transmissions. Now the plan is to use the donor case and the original int. plate and rear cover (the donor end cover was cracked and rewelded). Does this mean int. plate damage? From the pictures I've seen of replacement bearings, if I bought a new bearing assembly, the whole thing (races and caged bearings) would be pressed into the space in the intermediate plate. Are you saying that even if I had a new bearing assembly pressed in, that one too, would spin in the plate?

Red-Beard, great idea about buying an old tail shift to scavance for parts. I think my donor tranny has good synchro rings, that'll save me money, and both have decent looking sliders, dog teeth, so I'll pick the best of each. No plans to race my car, just for cruising, so used seems like a better (cheaper) bet for the intermediate plate bearing.

Rick, Bondo, I believe I understand why I (unfortunately) I can't use a tapered roller bearing after looking at the picture (attached). No fore-after support. Too bad. But I'll also attach a couple pictures to show you what I found when I opened it up. Perhaps I could find a replacement bearing cage like the one I found?

Here's how I find the replacement bearing...

The caged bearings lift right out of the race... the same type of non-original cage is on both sides, but this side fits looser. The other cage bearing "snaps" into the opposite and holds.

And finally, here's a close up of the cage, notice the cracks forming? Seems like this bearing assembly is just a tiny bit too small for this race, and the ball bearings were pressed outward, forming cracks in the cage. I'm wondering if I might just take this to a bearing shop and see if they have a replacement that I could try.

The bearing is a pressed fit system. Removal of the bearing is done by removing the retaining plate and the 6-8 12 point bolts. You only removed the inner section.

The problem with our bearing is this retainer plate. Our bearing are only held in place on one side. The lip on the bearing keeps it from going all the way through.

Image #2

Image #3

Also, you do not want to mix intermediate plates. What you have found is your doner tranny is better than your tranny. Not unusual. Rebuild it with parts from your tranny. The gears, case, intemedate plate and differential are matched during the shimming process.

Tail covers do not matter. You can even use a tail shift cover on a side shift tranny. Looks kinda stupid, but works fine. If you change any of the components, then you have to reset the depth and go through the whole ring pinion set up.

okay stupid question

are there any other tranny's that will fit in our car without very many mods done?

I know I would need a bellhousing adaptor and a mount bar

oh and a way to shift the car.

hijack over, sorry.

Good Morning (for me)

Welcome to the club


Lets see... I have been rebiulding Trans and Transfercases for a long time.....

QUOTE

Been there- done that. Unfortunately, the bearing guy said it is a manufacturer specific item - the cheapest source will be discount parts places like Pelican, etc.

In my research, OEM specific bearings uses special "reserved dyes" that get returned to the manufactor/client after the agreed production run. All is not lost, sometimes other industries will "borrow" a size and put it back into production, at a fraction of the first costs. Its been 10+ years since I rebiult my 74 so I haven't really been up to date with the 901 sizes.

Give it a try and let us know what you find

My next 901 is comming soon, and I will be looking at other options. I mite punch out the interplate and modify
the shafts. Did this with a Hypo 4Runner transfer case.

Good luck
Later

Thanks for the welcome! And yes, I will check with some bearing houses to see if there are compatible bearings out there. I'm also checking with Pelican to find a good used original bearing, so if anyone has one, I'd like to buy it from you...

Red-Beard, thanks for the guidance on the case componenet compatibility. That makes sense. Is it a problem that the current race spins inside my int. plate? Should that go away when I press in a new bearing assembly? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

You know, after looking at the guts of my donor tranny, everything seems to look good.... synchros, dogteeth, sliders. I haven't even taken the shafts apart, so I'm thinking that I might just put the donor tranny back together without touching the shafts any further... no reason, just making more work for myself. I'll install a new int. plate bearing, use the end plate and shift lever from the original transmission, new gaskets and seals and call it done.

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 6 2005, 04:15 AM)

are there any other tranny's that will fit in our car without very many mods done?

Uh, not any that can be done cheaper than buying several of these bearings...

--DD

The race in the intermediate plate will be pulled out when you replace the bearing. The balls and cages shouldn't come apart! it means the race and the cages are very very worn.



This is the way it will look. Again, notice the lip. This is what actually keeps it in the intermediate plate.

When I rblt box for my /4 I could turn the races by hand at both ends. I fretted abouted it, but ended up just putting it back together with new bearings. That was about 150k miles ago (no track). Its still fine with no noise. I did use some bearing retainer glue on the races, but when I recently had it apart to take care of leaks, that glue was long gone.

One thing about swapping end plates, the speedo drive gears for /4 and /6 are different. If you put a /6 end plate on a /4 they will grind themselves to bits.

The 915 thats going into my /6 has the same problem, but for these there are places that will re-do the cases for a proper fit. Not cheap.

Thanks everyone for the information. Unfortunately, I'll be away from home for the next week or so, so this project will be on hold until I get back. I'll let you know how it turns out.

- Bryan