Hey Teener community I need some help understanding how the insurance game works. I am hoping there are insurance professionals in this community that can chime in and help me understand the mechanics of insurance process in this situation.

As most of you know my GT car was stolen from a prominent Porsche shop in my area. It is starting to look like the car is gone and will be a “total loss.”

My car is insured by Hagerty but the loss is the responsibility of the shops insurer EMCIns.

As a point of reference James Patrick said a new top end 914-6 3.6 GT could be built for $225k, this would represent replacement value.

Yesterdays sale on BaT for a 72 914-6 GT 3.6 of $171k would represent market value today.

I have been informed by EMCIns. that they do not pay “replacement value” but they pay “actual value”.

How does this work on our cars, how is “actual value” on a 50+ year old high end 914-6 GT determined?

Thanks in advance guys.

Played that game in the late 80s. Guy rear-ended me when I was standing still, and just destroyed the whole back end of the car. body shop wanted $9,000 to rebuild it and repaint it, insurance company said they'd give me $4,500. I gave him pictures of my car and told them to go find me a car in as good a condition for 4500. A week later they called me back and said not only could they not find a decent car for $4,500 they couldn't find one for sale at all. They paid the entire cost, grudgingly, of the full $9,000

Settle with your carrier. They will pursue EMC for you and attempt to recover their payout and your deductible. That simple.

Value is determined by comps. What others have sold for in the last 6 months.

Honestly,
You may not have enough insurance personally to cover it. And that is your choice, however, your company is not technically liable. To settle with your insurance may not be the best option. Check the details out with an attorney. A consultation will not cost much, but knowledge is power.

Remember ither insurance company is not on your side. It cost what it cost to replace.
They are responsible to make you whole. What looks like a windfall, may not be enough. It would be in your best interest to try to find one they could purchase to replace it. That way you are not out the car and holding a check while inflation and other numbers drive your cost up. It's really the fairest way to settle for all involved. The question is can you find one?

Marty's issue may be that his policy is agreed value and under current replacement costs. Not sure about Cali, but in Texas the liable party is required to make you whole. In the past, the carriers have attempted to decide for all parties what that looks like. It in my opinion, that means that the liable party is replacing the car, regardless of costs. They can't provide a similar car in the market place, and therefore attempt to justify paying "market value" or in this case, depreciated actual value. It's been my experience that the carriers have not been pushed out of the box they have built to support their hold on rare car damage settlements. Most inexperienced adjusters that work for carriers will tell you that the owe for market value, and then attempted to provided comparables to support their findings. However, usually those comps are provided by a third party to support the carriers offer. Those comparables, in this case would be ... shit. Meaning, very few images of the comparable vehicle to support valuation, and poor documentation to support differences in valuation between the various items that cost big money, ie 3.2 vs 3.8 engines, transmissions, quality of paint, etc. It is also possible the shops carrier is attempting to not even address the cost and value incurred to modify the car in any way.

Marty should get the shop's carrier to provide current cars in the marketplace to support whatever valuation they are currently providing. That report (document) should be in hand prior to moving forward. I would also request a certified copy of the shops policy and dec page. That will have to be requested in writing, and advising an expected response time of 10 days. This will give you the language of the terms of the contract that the carrier has with the shop, and the amount of coverage they provide. In no case whatsoever will a carrier pay more than the limits listed for losses set in the policy.

Marty also has the option to file suit against the shop, and decline the carriers offers. But, that is a long road.

What is the stated insured value with Hagerty? I would submit it to them and let them go after the shop's insurance. That is why you pay for insurance. I have mine with a $150K value; but, the way things are going, I may have to bump to $175K soon.

I am so very sorry that some POS stole your beautiful car- it breaks my heart. I would be a mess if someone grabbed my car.

My brother is in the insurance industry and my dad was a KS state insurance regulator before that. From what I've learned from them, your insurance is still on the hook to "make you whole" per your coverage with Hagerty. It is up to them to negotiate with the other insurance carrier, but in the end, you should be covered according to YOUR policy. Bottom line is if you are insured for replacement value, then replacement value is what you should receive. Who pays what part should not be your problem. Regulations vary by state and I'm not an expert, just passing along what I've been told by someone who is.

If Marty has an agreed value policy, and just say that amount is $100K, Hagerty would pay that amount. Not a dime more. Hagerty then would subrogate to the other carrier for Hagerty's cost incurred. There would be no additional funds paid to Marty.

Ok, everyone post your comps here for Marty. Send them to the EMC appraiser. See if they bite. It is true hagerty only owes the value of the policy if it is agreed value. They will honor their contract. You people that are under insured and always trying to blame the big bad insurance company need to wise up.

Former body shop owner currently working in the insurance industry. We are not out to fuck you.

Claim through Hagerty. they pay replacement. They go after the shops insurance in subrogation claim.

A word of caution. I have all my collector cars insured with hagerty. They insure to the value that you and they agree to. If you say your car is $100k to replace then they insure to that and thats what they’ll pay out. You have to stay on top of it or you can find yourself under insured. They suggested a couple of my vehicles were under insured and we agreed to a larger value. With increased Premiums of course.

I'm not defending the insurance carriers, I just very clearly understand what their legal obligations require per policy, as well as does Rick. Any individual who has has a insurance policy should understand that the policy is a contract, written by the insurance carrier. Your payment to the insurance company for that policy is a contractual acceptance of that contract.

If the value to replace Marty's car is above his agreed value on his policy, Hagerty will not and has no obligation to pay Marty any more than the agreed value on his policy.

As Rick suggested, this is the easiest route to go if the cost to replace the car is equal to the agreed value on the policy.

Additionally, if Marty accepts settlement from Hagerty, based on his agreed value, he gives up his right to pursue seeking additional damages from either the shop, or the shops insurance carrier, which are assumed by Haggerty.

I wholly agree with Ricks last statement. I'm not here to see anyone get screwed, but, rather hope to provide as much limited info as I can, so an educated decision can be made.

You are insured by Hagerty. You must process the claim for theft with them if this is covered in your policy. You will settle with them. Only address the facts of what happened. Do not talk with EMC or anyone you have not retained.

Because of the value and circumstances, consult with an attorney who specializes in insurance claims. Get a review of the policy, your rights under the contract, state laws, regulations and steps you need to follow for a fair closure.

I would recommend not talking or posting publicly about the value or insurance issues until you consult with counsel. Do not assist with the initial value determination and wait for a written offer. This is the job of your insurance provider. Requesting comps and information from a forum helps as long as the information is sent to you. Ask for calls from anyone about this theft and subsequent claims to be submitted to you in writing. Follow the guidance of an attorney on what to collect, how and when calls are allowed to be made and recorded and how to respond to questions and correspondance. Any information online is in the public domain. This is a very valuable car, financially and emotionally. A fair and reasonable outcome is all you are looking for.

DaveB

What I was getting at in my initial post, is the liable party was the one storing it. If you were underinsured, it does not relieve them of the responsibility of making you whole. If you were willing to take on some skin while in your possession and driving it, or the values went crazy since the last policy renewal, not your problem.
Talk to legal consul. It may be the best money spent at this point.

Thanks for the response guys.

The question though still remains unanswered, here it is again: How is "actual value" determined by an insurance company on a 50+ year old collector car?

Let me be clear I am not talking about "agreed value" such as is done with Hagerty.

Marv

I was on the phone last week with Hagerty trying to increase my agreed value. At this point in my life I don’t want to build another car. If mine is taken I’ll just buy something. Hagerty told me my car was listed as a 2.0 an had a max value of 94,000 only if it was graded as a number 1 car and they were sure that wasn’t the case. Was told to start a review process by submitting photos and comps. My car isn’t perfect but it wouldn’t be cheep to replace.

I’m looking for comps too.

Same here, but after taking the photos and bills, they agreed at $93K, which is about 30k less tan it took to build the car so not bad. Our 75 2.0 was agreed on at $80k, which is about what we have in it.

Comps

If you are going to attempt to pursue this with the other carrier you need to find current sales for vehicles that are comparable to what you had. When I did auto claims we arrived at the value by averaging 3 comparable vehicles to come up with an average market value. The appraiser will likely not have the resources you have or the time to come comparable sales. Do your home work and present your claim.

Never had a claim on a GT, but have on a 914/4 many years ago. I know some things have changed, so keep us posted and let us know how this turns out, well we all hope of course, but there may be a BIG lesson for some us in here. Good Luck! Insurance Companies and Attorneys, are NOT two of my favorite things.

I'm glad I didn't go to law school.

When I got into my accident my insurance (not Hagerty) used the NADA guide to determine value, they asked me to submit accrued bills, detailed pictures and close comps to increase what they came up with. My car was fixable, but values were lower at the time and I wanted the car fixed vs totaled.

It was not easy, I had to fight for everything. Took 2-3 months of calls and e-mails almost every day to get them to write me an additional check of $3500 for parts/pieces not correctly replaced or installed by the shop.

This ^^^^

Put in the effort to show a large enough data set so the insurance company cannot argue.

Actual Value == sold within the past 6 months (I’m guessing)

This represents the true value in todays market to the average person reading the stated terms of the contract.

So, find 10 cars, sold, globally.
Produce the proof.
Be patient.

Not an easy task. When I sold real estate, 98% of sales were listed in the mls. I’ve sold quite a few Porsches and none of those sales have been listed in easily available records.

As others have said comps, which are going to be very few and far between...or perhaps you can leverage a letter from James Patrick stating reconstruction cost for your VIN as they had records on file for your car....??? Might be a bit of an ask as I know you did some work yourself and some there but then again always worth a try...

Man this sucks