Looking for help if anyone makes these OEM Windshield Sticker's?
Are they different for every model year?
Many years ago while restoring my 914 I used a solvent to clean up the windshield glass & destroyed the letters. I would like one for my OEM original windshield
This is off as recent 1976 in a local shop for repairs in this photo.
Tom Michigan

Pretty sure That is a stamp, not a sticker

^^^agree. Not a sticker.

I thought OEM was sigla.and it is etched in the glass not a sticker.

Steve,
It's not factory stamped, it's a thin clear see through logo sticker with white letters about 4"x4".
I pealed mine off using a razor blade to peal it off (Glued to the glass).
Tom

Rick,
Yes Sigla glass stamped by the glass factory is correct, but this is a peal off sticker. I'll do more checking and report back.
Tom

Rick,
Yes Sigla glass stamped by the glass factory is correct, but this is a peal off sticker. I'll do more checking and report back.
Tom

I was a tooling engineer at PPG in the late 80s. Those marking are required by law on any safety glass, laminated or tempered, used in vehicles. FMVSS 205 is the standard for US vehicles. Europe has slightly different requirements.

The trademark gives the manufacturer (DOT registration number), the factory (if they had more than one), the date of manufacture (month and year) and the composition of the glass (M number - referencing glass, thickness, color, laminated or tempered). The AS marking gives its intended vision area AS1, AS2, AS3 etc. They must be permanent markings so they cannot be removed by cleaning.

The trademarks are applied by sandblasting if the glass is already bent, fired-on ceramic stamping, or fired-on ceramic silk screening (especially if the glass has a black paint band or a heated circuit).

Every manufactures codes vary including the date code. For PPG (now PGW) the year was in the text and the month was the addition of the numbers 1 2 4 8. By blocking out the appropriate number on the silk screen you could come up with the correct month. Block out the 1 and the 4 leaving 2 and 8, would give 10 for October. Sometimes they would cheat to save making a new silk screen in January (since the year code would need to be changed) and make the numbers add up to 13. Other manufacturers use letter codes. It isn't intended to be a precise date down to the day.

Sometimes auto companies add stuff (bar code data) for robots to identify the glass prior to installation. They also can add logos or certifications for various countries.

Some useless trivia...

Interesting. Can you decipher the date or date code from the first photo above?

interesting.

original screen in mine. never been replaced.
does not have the audi rings like @TJB/914
just VW insignia. no mention of sigla either.
its a jan 74 build.

all the other letters codes are same as TJB/914

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side glass is the same
just VW insignia

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same with rear glass. different codes. but only VW insig.

i have a spare screen in its box still that i picked up in 90 from porsche in USA.
shipped it back with the car. would be genuine but manufactured at later date?
never taken a close look at markings apart from confirming it was completely clear.
(as was required by law in aus back then).
i'd have to pull it out and unbox it to see what was on that.


ps - sekurit is a brand name for automotive glass divsion of saint-gobain.
pretty much the best glass makers in the world.
though other glass companies would probably argue.
its interesting that the windscreen does not have sekurit branding.
a lot of the original parts in 914s did not have the manufacturer branding, but were stamped VW even if made by an external supplier. exhaust mufflers originally for instance just were given a VW stamp. often the replacement parts carry the manufacturer branding. its a fuzzy area.

ok - did some googling as i am always curious.

kinonglas is the manufacturer of the windscreens.
and kristall F/F HI might be the trademark name of the clear laminated glass.
(if the info i found is right - from an early 911 forum).

they were bought out by saint gobain, so a division of s g as per sekurit.
though no certain they were bought out by early 70s.
had the technical set up to do laminated windscreens. speciality item.
sekurit another factory doing flat/flatish glass. probably just toughened.

certainly sigla did windscreens originally for mercedes and porsche (for early 911s) but possibly by some stage in the early 70s saint gobain was supplying all the glass for 914s at karmann?

so it could all be S G glass in my 74 built in jan 74.
getting curious enough to carefully pull out my spare screen.

Click to view attachment

i don't reckon they had date codes back then mr. b.

given that first example is a 76 and i have a 74 and all the numbers/codes are the same.

probably later bureaucratic requirement.
maybe for the purposes of recalls in case a particular batch of screens is found to be defective and they have to go looking for them.

It's like a tempering bug. It's a frit stamp that's baked on the glass. Not a sticker.

Interesting 914 factory information.
I am cleaning up original remarks after investigating my restoration file. When I started my restoration 20+ years ago the windshield was factory OEM with the photo logo
I then replaced it with new glass from the Porsche dealer OEM factory replacement. It did not have the Sigla/Sekurit stamping, just factory Porsche Sigla parts replacement listed on the order forms.
Back 20+ years ago I spent over $15K+ on every 914 part that was available from the Porsche dealer in Ann Arbor, MI. 914 stuff was available whatever was needed.
Now we know the real story as we become 356ers.
When I had my 914 at 2013 PCA Parade the judges told me it's not real OEM unless it's there
Tom

down here i've stood around and listened to those judges types drinking beers on other occasions outside porsche or 356 club events. most of them are bullshit artists.
why i never go near the whole concourse parade scene.

f#ckers pissed me off back in the 90s when i drove to some 356 do one sunday just to have a look at the old cars. the prick at the gate told me to make sure i parked my car nowhere the event. i was in the 914. idiots if you ask me. mostly peddling bs they make up along the way. once upon a time you had no way to argue with the clowns.
it was all an act and their knowledge was just accumulated here-say.

these days with the internet and a website like this you can really get to the bottom of things. this website is the best thing around and the folks here have access to so much info you can really get to the bottom of things if that is your interest or determination.

eg. we would never have cracked the 1.8 L Jet info even 10 years ago.
but now you can accumulate enough data from folks you can work out what really went down instead of somebody just pontificating and bluffing.

The ziggy-zaggy line is the Sigla logo.

just to throw things.
what about this then?
from the L jet files.

a may/74 1.8 with the sigla logo. looks like its top of the screen.
was from a very original but very down car.
has oscilloscope wiggle logo just like kinoglas.
wiggle something else?

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a may/74 1.8 in very good/excellent original condition. low miles it was claimed.
identical to my jan/74. numbers code etc. (except its D-290, not D-226)

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3 possibilities.
one or the other are replacement screens. sigla maybe?
or/
sigla handled tinted screens?
or multiple original suppliers.

---

here is a 73 1.7 for a bonus.
in good original condition.
similar to 74 but has some different numbers going down.


Click to view attachment


worse than the ECA/B mysteries.

@JeffBowlsby .

i have a feeling (hunch) but could be wrong that the wiggle line and the number means a value for light transmission.

i'll try googling it and see what i can find out.

i believe that sigla and st. gobain (kinoglas) were not related companies.
but i could be wrong about that too.
you never know the way companies were gradually being transformed by takeovers in the post war era.


EDIT
i did once have to get right into this about 30 years ago.
but i have forgotten the whole thing.
aus windscreen regs when i put the car on the road here were nuts strict.
a lot more different standards of screens were tolerated in the USA.
and all the markings on USA screens are USA market.
there was some trip up about my screen lacking a British Standards mark.
but i got it through in the end because some "expert" at the registration board hauled out his book of international standards and confirmed it kosher.
there was a lot of talk and discussion about light transmission value.
aus screens were ZERO tint by regulation.

here is how you tell who made the windscreen.
its the DOT number.
Dept. of Transport assigned manufacturer's DOT numbers back in the late 60s and kept a list.

https://www.carwindshields.info/dot_db


DOT 31 has disappeared off the list.
presumably because kinonglas was aquired by st. gobain sometime in the 70s after those 914 windscreens were manufactured.

interestingly a lot of sigla windscreens have the DOT 25 number.
this is assigned to flachglas gmbh.
flachglas is the name of the german company who made sigla.
it would appear it might still exist as a DOT number. its on the list.

https://www.flachglas.de/en/company/history/

no relation to kinonglas, sekurit or st. gobain.

st. gobain (sekurit) retain the usa DOT 27 number but its for the german factory.
the italian factory is DOT 37. the french factory is DOT 39 - i think DOT numbers go even further, they identify not just companies but either particular factories or particular divisions in countries.
presumably DOT 31 was retired and DOT 27 took over once st. gobain acquired kinonglas.

thats how you work out the manufacturer.
DOT number is a usa requirement but a lot of screens have it whether sold in cars in USA or not, even today. my renault clio has a DOT number on it. not a car that was even sold in the USA. its a 2002 model with a DOT 39, means its french french and french.

-------

but i can find out zero on the wiggly line and the plain D number that is usually near it.
narthing. but both sigla windscreens and kinonglas had it and the companies are entirely separate. were back then and still are today.
i think that symbol was particular to germany and meant something.
might have stood for laminated? interlayer. who knows. but there is no trace of info on it anywhere that i can find doing all sorts of searches. my usual go to places are mercedes forums and speciality sites. they often have this obscure stuff. no luck.

i did come across a mercedes benz from the 70s on an image search with an almost identical marking layout to the kinonglas 914 screens except it was made by sudglas.
This was DOT 30 and has also disappeared off the DOT list today. presumably sudglas was acquired by another company and absorbed. also had the wiggle line.

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the weird logo in the sudglas screen is not a company logo.
its the british standards marking.
a lot of euro market cars carried it.
a lot of aussie cars had it too back in those days.
likely never on USA car windscreens.

conclusion.
a porsche could have either a sigla or a "st. gobain/st. gobain absorbed company" screen in it from factory. there won't necessarily be a logo. original factory installed screens more than likely just had the car brand on it. though maybe porsche did not do that.
mercedes and VW did. later replacement screens might have had the glass company logo and not the car brand logo. but the screens could be either.
the vast majority of VW screens would appear to have been "st. gobain".
914s were built by VW essentially. probably copped the st. gobain most of the time.
but a replacement screen could certainly have been a sigla. they would have been in the OEM supplier loop and could easily have made them too.

amusing bonus digging around on kraut glass.
its real hot here today. hiding inside from the UV bombardment.
its intense outside. feel like i'm getting sunburnt just going to pick up a slab from the bottle shop. hope it cools off so i can crack out the 914 for a run.
still quiet on the roads around here. everyone has left town.

on left merc screen.
on right screen on my 914.

all the numbers on the DOT line identical.
wiggle and D number identical.
ones got a merc logo ones a VW.
both kinonglass.
both match TJB/914's original photo of a 76.

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kinonglas had been around for a long time before they got swallowed.

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and here is some merc screen with an interesting label overlay.
must date from around the time sekurit swallowed them having been swallowed by st. gobain.

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Absolutely correct. It is known as a kitemark. We called it a kite for short.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitemark

Unfortunately I can't. The codes all depend on how the manufacturer sets them up.

Since I worked at PPG I knew their system. DOT 18 was PPG.

Some of it was standardized... The M number defines the glass makeup and processing - I vaguely remember the M number had to be registered with UL or CSA as standards conformance testing had to be proven for the thickness, materials and processing of that configuration. Testing included ball drops, penetration, broken shard size, etc. US standards differ a bit from Euro.

AS1 mark defines the primary vision area - the windshield. AS2 is secondary vision areas like side and rear windows. AS3 would be for things like sunroofs. If the windshield has a blue / green tinted shade band at the top there will be an AS2 mark with an arrow on it, indicating it is not part of the primary area (they were also used in production for workers to line up the shade band of the laminated inner vinyl layer). The color was dyed into the vinyl not the glass.


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This was made at PPG works no. 80 (Hawkesbury, Ontario) in November 2005.

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This was made at PPG works 28 (Evansville, Indiana) in March 2004.

These are both OEM windshields. There was really good money in ARG (automotive replacement glass). Back in my day, a COMPLETE car set of glass sold to Honda for about $100. For replacement glass, just the windshield alone we could get more than what we sold the car set for. Tooling for windshields was cheap - that is why all glass companies make it (and it is usually the one that gets chipped and broken the most). I can't think of anyone that made tempered back and side glass for the aftermarket. The tooling and process was much more complicated and expensive. A single OEM run would make 10 years worth of replacement tempered glass and you could not compete with that because of tooling costs if you were not the OEM.

Is there a difference between OEM glass and ARG. Hell yes.
For OEM glass we had drawings and data for bend and size from the automaker. For ARG glass we would go out buy a piece of glass from a replacement auto glass company (that was hopefully made by the OEM). We would make tooling by cloning everything off of that single piece of glass. Typical glass size tolerance was +/- 1.5mm. God knows where that sample glass was at. We would wait for complaints from glass shops before making changes.

Thing is, glass that did not meet automaker specs (for size and bend) often found their way into the ARG market. It was good from a safety perspective, just would be rejected by the auto maker. Robotic installation would be a problem if the size was out but not a big deal for a guy at an auto glass shop to fiddle with.

I guarantee that Chinese made replacement windshield glass is made the same way. For our 50 year old 914s my question is how bad is the photocopy, of a photocopy, of a photocopy, of a photocopy...

As a general rule, anyone can make replacement windshields. Side and back glass is generally always OEM.

Naturally I'm a bit anal when it comes to windshield glass since I know how it was made. Is ARG glass garbage? It really depends on the source. I bought mine from Porsche for a reason maybe it is a photocopy closer to the original document.

While my originality concerns don't extend to the windshield - I still find this all very interesting!
I have almost no history on my car, but knowing when the windshield was replaced would be another small piece to the puzzle.
As you can see the replacement is a PPG, but the markings are different then the ones above - can you @vitamin914 decipher it for me?
Thanks!

This really opened up the 914 brain trust experts

Here is a windshield photo taken July 2009 on a neighborhood 914-6. Info for our 914-6 guys.
Also wonder where this 914-6 ended up?? Anyone here?? I have old photo's to share.
Tom

@scott_in_nh

It has been 30+ years, so much has changed.

From what I can see it was made at PPG works 41 in Berea KY. It has a NAGS number on it (National Auto Glass Supply). NAGS is an industry organization that publishes a catalog for replacement glass for all makes and models. Glass shops use these to order glass from distributors. The NAGS number is is FW235 (FW means Foreign Windshield). This glass was made expressly for the replacement glass aftermarket. PPG was not an OEM for this part.

Since it is PPG not PGW, it means it was made before 2009 when PPG sold the auto glass division. The 0 means 2000 or 1990. It is not earlier because the PPG logo has a border next to the P and G (used to be right to the edge before 1987). I remember having to change a lot of silk screen artwork trademarks because of that pointless change...

It was made in the month of February. Solex is a light green tinted glass. The M 405 would have described that plus the thickness of the inner / outer glass layers and PVB middle layer... You could have different inner and outer glass thickness and or colors although the layers were generally the same type of glass - some Japanese cars used bronze colored glass instead of green. Our cars have clear or green tint glass. We had tables for M numbers to look them up.


Remember that trademark tells when the glass was made. It could have sat in a warehouse for a long time before being sold and installed into your car. It might not be that good for adding to the puzzle information.


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1966-1987

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1987-2016

Thanks! It makes sense that the year is 1990 as the PO said the car was repainted in the early 90’s before his ownership and I have reason to believe the windshield was replaced when the car was last painted.
To add a somewhat useful point for everyone – this windshield has been in the car for ~30 years and >40k miles and was installed using modern adhesives – not the Butyl tape!
Hope I didn’t just jinx myself lol!

Scott

What I am seeing in many of the 914 images posted is that Kinon made the OEM AS1 windshield (not Sigla) and Sekurit made the side glass.

wow @vitamin914

interesting info download. thanks for that.
i'm not sure i should have flown off and dug up all that stuff on what a factory windscreen really was but it was so hot yesterday here there wasn't much else to do except put the feet up, crack a beer and stay inside. good for research.

at least mr. b ( @JeffBowlsby ) can enjoy the fruits - some more data for his classic website and closer to the "truth". whatever that is when it comes to 914s.

good to have it explained what the M code is - relating to a table (list).
can understand that now.
must have been how the rego authorities here 30 years ago satisfied themselves i had a legit screen for australia. probably looked up the M code. gave them what they were looking for. light transmission percentages?

looks like the squiggle and the D-code is something that will remain a mystery but i guess everyone now knows its not any kind of manufacturer symbol.
probably a german code thing? maybe they had a table (list) to go with that.
whatever it is.



on a side note @JeffBowlsby . i stumbled across a mention of kinonglas as being the supplier of the glazing in the famous FagusWerks building by Walter Gropius.
mr. kinon patented a particular kind of security glass with an early type of vinyl interlayer.
interesting innovator.

i couldn't find out much about sudglas which was the other manufacturer of what appeared to be a very similar windscreen fitted to some mercedes benzs but i think the scenario in the early 70s was that kinonglass as a factory and sudglas as a factory formed an association with sekurit and it was known as the sekurit-glas union gmbh.
gradually this then morphed into being known simply as sekurit. these days sekurit survives as a name by being the automotive glass division of st. gobain.
the renault i have has a windscreen branded with three names on it.

RENAULT
----------
SEKURIT
_______
St. Gobain

i believe that these days the remnants of kinonglas survives as Sekurit gmbh germany.

yes

the confusion may have arisen because 911s over in stuttgart made by reutter did have sigla windscreens. porsche had a different supplier than VW.

i did come across a photo of an english 930 turbo, an early turbo, that was claimed to have an original factory windscreen. it was an kinonglas screen just like the 914s.
so maybe porsche switched over from sigla in the 60s to kinonglas sometime in the 70s as well.

Found this with a google search. I wonder what ABG approval means?

great minds think alike?
i just found that one too.
i just had to try and find out what it was.

bless the new zealanders. must be something to do with being two islands full of car nuts who import stuff all the time.

translates as this.

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i think what it is mr b is what the german had before the pan european standards were brought in that involve the E in a circle with a code system that goes with that.

i came across a german vintage VW blog and the version there said the herz symbol (the wave) means safety glass. so the D-XXX with a particular number is highly likely to be the german certificate that goes with that particular type of glass construction.
ie float/float. or float/toughened etc laminated. and for side windows etc the various types of toughened single sheet float.

pretty much the equal of the M code in the USA requirements which is the line above it on most of those german windscreens.

it all goes something like this.

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i pulled my spare windscreen down but was not game to get the screen out of the box on my own. its all packed in there still with its proper foam edge protection. two person job to get it out and not risk damaging it. the marking was hidden by the foam protector pieces so i could not get a photo. the screen is dated from 92. i remember now i ordered it via hamiltons the distributor in australia shortly after returning from the USA.
it is a genuine screen. be interesting to see who the manufacturer is. nothing on the external box. only marked with porsche branding on the packaging.


EDIT
ps did you find that on the new zealand registration authority website like i did?

I don’t recall, but I don’t think so. Maybe use a better image with the Kinon and DOT terms clearly depicted from a 914

@JeffBowlsby

found it.
jag nut website going into nutcase detail about triplex windscreens.
worse than us?
it is the official german approval.
link explains the lot. cheese eating surrender monkeys, krauts, limeys, etc.
looks like the european union put an end to it.

https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/triplex-log...p-needed/385846

interesting to see from that kiwi website how lame australia was.
just had a version of the british kite symbol.
i don't want to talk my own country down but such a colonial disappointment.
still is in many ways!

I wonder if you can a few missing smdescriotions such as for the DOT 31, M# etc. also I’m pretty sure that the F in ‘Laminated F’ means tinted glass.

you would need DOT documents from back in the early 70s.
i have managed to find some stuff before from EPA but.........

and as @vitamin914 says you need the industry code books for particular manufacturers to get the M number. god knows where you find those now.

AS1 is not hard. it just means America Windscreen Glass. must be used on windscreens.

i did look up the PET.

there is only 4 windscreens.
3 of them have the same part number. you got to look across for a bit more description.
the last 1 has a different part number. its for a heat protection glass screen.
so there is only going to be 4 of these M numbers. or am i wrong?
and the description line for the manufacturer will be different at the end after the brand name of the glass. the bit where it goes F/F and HI. these will be different letter.
and i suppose there are four D number certificates.

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lesson is, for those thinking of just faking up a transfer to do the "originality" thing on their windscreen better be careful which "original" marking you copy.

and it looks like from year to year there is subtle shifts in the graphic re-arrangement of the markings.

a bit like the tune up sticker on a 1.8.
is that an EC-A or an EC-B mate.

it would be fun to go along to a PCA concourse and mess with the judges minds?
its way tricky stuff this quest for originality.
not sure its a worthy endeavour.
better to just have a few original cars sitting around in museums and go for it with the rest of whats rolling. hot em up. whatever.

by the way i think the herz symbol is cute on the german glass certification.
i wouldn't mind betting it symbolises a heartbeat.
ie you live with this glass instead of dying?
just a thought.

i dunno, it was a much more imaginative world before it started to go all global.
the whole of europe is now just the stupid E with a circle.
but back then the national character of how you do things really came through?

the french one is really good. AGREE. followed by certificate number.

that is from my 914.
but you are right the reflection is bad.
i'll take another photo when the light isn't messing with me.

i need to find out what HI means on the manufacturer line to do a final version.

also i have that 73 1,7 on file with the different letters in the manufacturer's description line.
i need to work out what they might mean. it appears to be a different type of screen construction entirely. says FIFA/F whatever that is.

and just to really mess with things that image posted above of a 914/6 screen is a whole different ball game compared to mine and the 73 i have on file.
but i reckon its dead set original and fairly interesting.

?????

EDIT
laminated F definitely does not mean tinted.
i have a totally clear screen.
that was the big deal about getting registered in aus.
had to be clear.
laminated F is my screen on my car. so its not tinted.
everything i have come across that explains what various letters means says F = float.
i think in the case of my screen it means that neither of the glass laminations are toughened. its just plain laminated float glass. thats what i think.

the side glass probably has the clues. being single glazed that stuff will definitely be toughened. which is a T apparently.

i think tint is covered in the M codes. but you need access to those code books for each manufacturer.

@JeffBowlsby

i got my crack researcher on to it.
the chick who painstakingly cleaned the falcon ute interior with dishwashing liquid and toothbrush. she normally works at a top end indigenous art research institute at melbourne university.

she turned up the info that the D number, the ABG number as it is really known was issued by the Kraftfarht-Bundesarnt.

Click to view attachment

------

i might put her on to digging into DOT numbers.
it will cost me a case or two of ASAHI beer but it might be worth it.

her grandfather, father and uncle prepared the car that won the bathurst 500 in 1968 when she was still in nappies. 914s are her third favourite car after holden torana GTR-XU1s, and the citroen Karin concept car. so you never know what she might find.

A couple of things I am curious about:

On the side windows, Delodur-1 is clear, Delodur-F is tinted. Most of the windshield bugs have that "F" designation and tinted windshields were made for the 914. Tinted 914 windshields are so lightly tinted the tint is almost imperceptible, maybe they found yours was acceptable, even though it was techncially tinted?

Does herz=hertz? I found a german spelling of it as 'herz' (named after Heinrich Hertz, German physicist), but have only known that term to be hertz. If so I suppose either is correct. That hertz symbol was linked to the ABG number in that explanatory 'key' image that we both found so it is part of the desgination of that "D"-number.

The PET page posted indicates 4 windshields. One windshield was made for the /6..why was that necessary? One was for heat protection, could that be the HI designation?

One of the images indicates "Plate". Would that be the non-laminated glass (Non-US markets only)?

Also, have not heard of 'toughened' glass before. Laminated, tempered, annealed, float (plate). Am I correct in understanding that 'toughend' must be tempered and the term is used in some parts of the world? A windshield (at least here in the USA, and Canada) should be tempered over tempered and laminated with the plastic interlayer.

On the M numbers I thought they were model numbers for each specific part as determined by each manufcturer. So not just 4 M numbers total, but one or more for each manufacturer that makes a 914 windshield or its variants.

Then there is this one from a 1972 currently on BaT (closes this morning). It appears to be originally a german market car from one of the stickers. It says Laminated Plate which I think is correct for the german market at the time. How it came to the US with that windshield is questionable.

@JeffBowlsby

re tough v tempered. down here we refer to it as toughened glass.
same thing. heat treated for strength.

you are right about the side glazing. if it has got the F. might have to look further into that. the jag website i linked to above lists all the letters used. states F is for float glass.
that info might be wrong. the glass in my car is Delodur1 in the side windows and rear window so i had not picked up on that F being there. further investigation required.

the windscreen from the car on BAT is a USA rated windscreen.
nothing mysterious there. its got the AS1 rating marked on it.
its also laminated as it should be. see at the top. of the marking

the plate glass descriptor is interesting.
there will be an explanation for that.
could be as simple as the germans changed the term but where referring to the same thing. ie sheet glass/plate glass/float glass. you can get yourself into tricky territory with the old plate glass versus float glass discussion. anyway its a lam screen.
its very similar to the 73 screen i posted on first page of this thread.
similar but not exactly the same.
need more info/data.

the PET i referred to showed a distinct windscreen for both the 914/6 and the 914 2.0 together rather than just the 6. still - as you say, what was that about. yet it has the same part number as the one for standard 4s. dunno.
more data needed.

re M numbers. they would be different for each manufacturer.
but they might be describing the same thing. ie same construction.
anyways, i'm only going to poke my head into kinonglas. as far as i can tell that is the one that the factory was installing.

i am not sure about the tempered over tempered for a windscreen in the USA.
or as we would say, toughened over toughened.
i know a lot about glass in architectural applications.
normally we cannot get laminated toughened. its laminated float.
we can only get toughened as single sheet.
now that may be a limitation of architectural glass and codes as they relate to regulation rather than a manufacturing limitation.
further research required.
however, that screen you have posted from BAT is USA so its a moot point.
AS1 on the DOT and M line means its a USA approved screen or USA standard screen.

herz means heart.
a couple of ways you could see that wavy line.
a sine wave. hertz.
a heartbeat herz.
who knows exactly why the germans chose that symbol.
they just did.
the French as i found out use the word AGREE instead of a symbol. which means APPROVED.

some more work to do.
the F thing is interesting. you may be right.
have to investigate further.
i'll look into DELODUR and see what that is about.

i guess its a bit like the ECA/B research.
you have to acquire enough examples to get to the bottom of it.

@JeffBowlsby

i had a look at the car on BAT you are referring to.
white car? latest on list?

not sure that is a german delivery car.
its got a VIN sticker. looks original. i guess it could be a repro.
but if it was german would not have one.
its also got a correct Vin plate on windscreen. does look a bit shiny though.
german car would not have one.
and its got USA tyre pressure sticker on fuel tank where USA cars have it.
german car would have it on the right inner wheel well in front trunk.

i don't know enough about early cars.
are you saying the fuel octane sticker is the wrong one.
explanation for fuel octane sticker could be that its a repro.
someone got it wrong doing a fix up/"resto"?
or are you seeing other clues its german delivery besides the fuel octane sticker.


its all pretty interesting. so many ways you can get an "authentic" resto wrong when you really start sticking your head into it. disappear down the rabbit hole.


EDIT
@JeffBowlsby
thanks to your prompt i looked closer at PET again on side windows.
see on previous page where i posted the page from my PET catalogue on file.
there are two types of side windows (for both the wind up section and the fixed triangle).
only two.
one is clear. one is heat protection glass.
so is the distinction in the side windows then.
DELODUR 1 and DELODUR F.
i have not seen a DELODUR F. but if that is the other side window, then what it says to me is one or the other is heat protection. not sure which one but.

FURTHER EDIT
and its different again for the rear window.
its two types.
clear is one.
but the other is not heat protection its the heated rear window.
i have a DELODUR 1 on my rear window and its not a heated rear window.
so there is the clue i think.
DELODUR 1 is likely to be the clear glass?
DELODUR F is heat protection glass?

can you post a pic of a DELODUR F side window mr. b

and if that logic is right.
the F on a front screen possibly means the same or similar thing.
but not so much tinted as heat protection.
probably at that 70% threshold that i think is the regulation at that time for light transmission in a windscreen.
as to exactly how that heat protection was done would need a bit of further digging.

F/F on my front screen and DELODUR F on a side window tends to indicate its the glass itself. as the side windows are not laminated. you would think they would do it with the interlayer in the front screen but maybe they did not back then. its possibly the glass itself?

i 50% agree with you now. F would likely mean something to do with being not fully clear? but i would not use the word tint necessarily to describe it.

to explain a little further about the front screen.

usually they use the / to describe the interlayer.
in modern screens you often see a lot of different versions of this.
like two. // and other variations on the theme.
it is usually these days floating just above the circle with the E in it on euro markings.

hence i think with a 914 front screen which goes F/F that likely means the interlayer was nothing fancy and F each side of it is indicating that the glass is the special thing.
two sheets of F either side of standard interlayer.

we have to think back that its 50 years ago. so interlayer tech would have been far less developed than it is these days. these days they do a lot of fancy stuff with the glass interlayer itself. clear zones for toll reader trigger units etc. heads up display areas.
you name it. but back then it would have been way less fancy.

@JeffBowlsby

getting a bit closer on the DELODUR name on side and rear glass.

did a bit of looking about on samba.
VW kooks take their research right back into the 50s.

so DELODUR is either a company or a brand name that comes from the merger of
Duro-Glas and Delog. the blended title for the merged company is DELODUR.

the LIZ. SEKURIT bit on the side glass means this.
LIZ. is abbreviation for licensed in german.
so that means either
Licensed to SEKURIT or licensed from SEKURIT.

old VW glass prior to merger of Duro-Glas.
still LIZ. SEKURIT even back then.

Click to view attachment

-----

is this the side glass you are talking about.
it is DELODUR-1F. so its got an F after the 1.
interesting it also has the Audi Rings as well as the VW symbol.
similar to the 76 windscreen in the first post that started all this off.

Click to view attachment


there is quite a few things to track on the glass.
seems to me not only is there the spec for the different windscreens.
but it could well be that for each year the way the information is written and the way it is arranged graphically on the mark changes. or it might be for each year or change at distinct points in time.
they might have been describing exactly the same screen and spec, but its written differently in 1970 than how it is written in 74. or any other year!

@wonkipop
@JeffBowlsby


There is a historical meaning to various terms like toughened, tempered, float and plate.

I would say 99.99% of all windshield glass now made is from laminated sheets of annealed float glass. None of it is tempered or toughened. It may have at some point in history but the reason is rather obvious. Have you ever seen how tempered glass shatters into what looks like ice crystals? Imagine a stone hitting the windshield and instantly the glass turns into that? You suddenly wouldn't see anything in front of you.

The terms plate glass and float glass were used to describe the process of making glass... plate glass was typically drawn vertically out of a molten pool of glass. It would have a wavy pattern and it was ground and polished to make it flat. Float glass is made by molten glass flowing out onto molten tin ribbon and "floating" on it until it cooled. This was obviously a better glass. I can see there being differences in mechanical properties between float and plate glass and that may be the difference in some trademarks having float or plate designations. I don't know when thing like that happened in what years. Now the terms are interchangeable.

Trivia... what does PPG stand for? Many think it is Pittsburgh Paint and Glass - wrong. It actually was Pittsburgh Plate Glass. They were the first company to successfully operate a commercial plate glass process.


Annealed, tempered, toughened.

Windshields are made from annealed glass. Two pieces of glass are cut with the inner piece being a bit smaller so when they bend, the edges line up to be square. The flat glass is dusted with a material so the two pieces do not stick together when being bent.

The flat glass is placed on "bending irons" which are typically made of stainless steel with pivoting weighted wings. The bending irons support the glass around the periphery and as the glass travels through the lehr (bending furnace) it softens, sags and bends into shape by gravity. It takes a lot of skill with the right heating profiles to get the glass into the right shape. After slow cooling the layers are separated and the PVB vinyl gets inserted then heated with a vacuum or nipper rollers to squeeze out air. The final process it is put into a huge autoclave to be heated and pressurized. That squeezes the glass to the vinyl gets the air out and it goes from milky to clear.

Tempered glass is similar but different. Glass is cut, machined for size and to give a rounded edge and if needed, drill holes for hardware. The glass goes through a furnace on ceramic rollers to a bending station where it gets picked up (with a vacuum) and dropped onto a bending form. Then it is immediately basted with compressed air from oscillating nozzles that cool the glass rapidly tempering it. This induces huge stresses. The outsides are in compression the core is in tension. It gives the glass lots of physical strength but that is not where the safety part comes from. If the compressive layer is comprised (by an impact) the stress becomes unbalanced at the the entire piece shatters into tiny fragments. None of these fragments are large enough to make a knifelike shard that will cut you deeply. This is the safety part. Strong (I have stood on a curved side window without it breaking) cheap and safe. Sometimes you can see the nozzle stress patterns in tempered back windows of cars if you are wearing polarized sunglasses.

Most tempered glass is now made horizontally on rollers.
Earlier tempered glass went through the furnace hung vertically from tongs. The glass was then pressed from the sides before being tempered. It has very characteristic tong marks or dimples pushed into the glass surface near one edge. I think I saw these on the side glass of our 914s?


Tempered glass has specifications for how it breaks. There is a maximum weight for the largest shattered piece. Euro standards have smaller size fragments and are harder to make. I remember when when we had to make a Euro spec window for a customer and the process could not cool the glass fast enough in the summer (hot ambient air). The plant manager went baillistic saying what am I supposed to tell the customer that we can't make their glass in the summer? Well... yeah... it's physics. Thinner glass is harder to properly temper than thicker glass too.

Toughened glass is tempered glass but not to the same level. The shards will be bigger.

One of my jobs as a young engineer was to test glass samples in the lab by dropping metal darts and huge ball bearings from various heights onto the glass. We would log the test results and have to send additional samples out to Underwriters Labs or Canadian Standards Association for independent certification. I just did the testing not the submissions. This is where the M numbers were used. The M number would be the certification for that particular type of glass, thickness, lamination / temper etc. It is very possible that the M number had to go to the DOT for registration - but I don't know that for a fact. We also did light transmission and abrasion testing on the glass too. All of this was recorded for each M number.

Although there is a lot of science in making glass, there is also a lot art in the process too. It takes a lot more for everything to come together than we sometimes imagine.

You guys have done some amazing research on the trademarks or "bugs" as some call them. Bravo!

Don't get too hung up on the way things are presented in the trademarks. There were no hard and fast rules. It had to meet regulations for minimum information but beyond that it was up to the glass company how they presented it. Sometimes the auto maker wanted specific things (like logos or bar codes) but they left the rest to us. We had a standardized trademark catalog but often had to make minor changes. Obviously, aftermarket replacement glass was much less strict than OEM (that required the car maker to approve).

thanks for that @vitamin914

your remarks regarding windscreens and lamination make 100% sense to me.
the whole idea of a modern safety windscreen is that it is not meant to explode.
which toughened glass tends to do spectacularly.
i've watched a very expensive triple glazed sliding door glazing unit explode after one of the guys installing accidentally tapped the edge with his tool belt hung hammer.
everyone standing with 10 feet had a heart attack.
and then the glazier had heart attacks for the rest of the afternoon thinking about the replacement.

i would have thought the windscreens are all laminated. but not laminations of toughened.

here is some more for @JeffBowlsby .
i found these from the ECA/B file fairly easily when i went back and scoured.
from a 1974 1.8 that was very original.
in 1974 they were doing the side glass as DELODUR - F.
pretty interesting to compare to that one that AASE advertises with 1F rather than F.
which is probably a 1976 one given the audi rings. but who knows.
anyway a straight up DELODUR-F.
interestingly the D number is different on the F in 74 than the 76(?) one.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

got to digest the rest of @Vitamin914 's download for all his good info.

@vitamin914

that is just brilliant about the sunglasses and tempered glass.
for years i have wondered what those patterns were that i saw in the back glass and side windows of the 914. i was wondering, is this some kind of horrible degradation going on and one day i will wake up to exploded glass everywhere in the garage.

but its not in the windscreen.

interestingly my renault clio from 2002 does not seem to exhibit those patterns in the glass with the sunnies on. but the citroen xm from 99 does.
the glass in the renault is quite a bit more tinted and its factory tint.
recently australia really relaxed on glass tinting standards for cars.
it has been in response to the alarming skin cancer rates and over the top UV levels in the southern hemisphere. we have greater ozone depletion down here than the northern hemisphere. even our windscreens are allowed to be notably darker than they once were. i used to know a red headed girl with fair skin back in the 90s. she always used to drive with long sleeves and gloves on and with giant jackie onassis sunglasses. she was a doctor. had a fear of skin cancer.

@JeffBowlsby
@vitamin914

given vitamin's big explanation and thinking about it.

i reckon whether its toughened (tempered) or laminated float (plate) is taken up in the trade (brand) name of the glass.

in the front screens that being KRISTALL. referring to a copyright name for a particular way of laminating the glass with particular interlayer and certain specific process and machines. made by KINONGLAS.

and in the side windows and rear windows.
DELODUR - meaning toughened or tempered and a registered copyright name for a particular process for doing it in a particular factory. made by SEKURIT.

and yes i think you are right Jeff.
the F refers to what you might call tint. or more correctly heat protection.
except i think it amounts to a naturally darker glass by composition rather than tinting as we normally think of it.
if there is no F its not heat protected. ie the 1 designation on side glass.

this naturally darker glass is used on side windows but is toughened and tempered using the particular manufacturer and copyrighted process.
and same goes for windscreens except lamination process.

that would be my guess.

beyond that you are going to need books with M codes and/or the german tables for D codes. way beyond my pay grade or i suspect standard internet searches.

if you could accumulate enough examples i am sure it does come down to the 4 different screens in the PET. its just that the description might slightly change through the years.

there appears to be basically an F/F front screen.
and then there appears to be variations on IRA/S front screens.
earlier ones appear to say IRA/S
later ones say FIRA/F but maybe not same. because there is that pesky F again.
but they seem to be later screens that have FIRA/F v earlier screens saying IRA/S.
i reckon its more or less the same thing.
it appears to be the alternative screen to more common F/F.
the other variants say either F/F or nothing.
all the ones i have found appear to have the HI tacked on the end whatever the IRA/S FIRA/F or F/F. so i don't think HI has anything to do with heat protection glass.
what HI means - i dunno. high impact? or something like that?

@JeffBowlsby

ok i just went back into PET on windscreens.

so there are 3 there that are clear.
one of them is indicated as being for 914/6 and for 2.0
one of them is indicated for being for 914/4, 1.7 and 1.8.
both have same part numbers. and why the difference. i mean there is none is there.
there is a third clear one.
this has again the same part # and specifically says not for USA, CND and S.
(canada and sweden)
and it says it is tempered plate glass. so there was one tempered or toughened windscreen. surprising to me. but in looking closely not so surprised. PET describes other three as laminated. but makes no mention of laminated for this one. i don't think its laminated. its one single sheet of glass. if it is then i can understand how its been made. its been formed and then its been tempered. thats the only way you can do it.
what it is saying Jeff is that tempered screens are not for the USA. definitely not a USA standard. so i will bet a 1000$ that that screen whatever it is does not have AS1 written on it?

and then the fourth one is the heat protection glass.
and its the one with the different part no.
it is described additionally as laminated.

so there will be three with laminated written on the screen.
the toughened or tempered one will probably not say laminated anywhere on it.

the spare one i have in the box is the commonly shared part number that three of them have. 914 541 101 10. lucky i have it still in its box because i can at least link a screen to a part #. its on the box. no other way to do it as no part # on screen itself.
going to be interesting when i get the screen out and see whats on it.
but not going to rush into that. i need a friend around here to help me get it out carefully. whatever it is though part # says its clear (and one of the versions of the clear).

i've got my fingers crossed its not a f$%ken tempered one. last thing i want as a spare.
i don't think it will be as i am pretty sure its got to be lam glass for australia, and i don't believe the aus distributor would have been that stupid. they used to know what they were doing. but you never know. i'm really going to have to have a look at it now.

Click to view attachment

@JeffBowlsby

it just hit me why the difference of screens for /6 and /2.0 versus the 1.7/1.8
higher top speed.
its an impact strength thing?
i think what we will probably find is that the 6 and the 2.0 has a different screen than the humble 4s.
you need to find a few 6s or 2.0s known to have original screens and see what is notated on them. this is for the clear screens.

i notice that for the heat protection screen with the different part number that is in column to the far right of PET there is no distinction or listing of models.
that screen must be impact/speed rated for use in all the cars. its a stronger screen up to the standard needed for a 6 but they only bother to make one variant? probably the most expensive screen too?

they did the same thing for the tyres.
1.7s and 1.8s had the S rated tyre.
2.0s had the H rated tyre (think its H isn't it or was it V? whatever its not S).
there is a speed threshold standard somewhere in there.
german standard?
the faster cars get a stronger standard clear screen than the slower small engine standard cars?

and somewhere in the mix they could do a toughened screen but its only permitted in the smaller 4 in certain parts of the world and was never used in the 6 or 2.0 anywhere in any part of the world. thats how i read the PET.

EDIT - and i am starting to remember when i got my screen.
my mate with the original assessment 6 did the deal through the distributor and got me in on it. so with a bit of luck what i have is a screen fit for a 6 because they were two screens bought in together and the order was made with the 6 in mind. i think they would have got it right. anyway more reason to get it out of the box.

@JeffBowlsby

one more for you.
i was trying to think where would a car be that did not have the USA approved windscreen.
i thought of the silver 74 1.8 in the porsche museum. its a german delivery car.
the one we got one of the elusive engine tin stamp numbers from.

i only have my photos i took years and years ago.
can't quite enhance it enough to really read it.
but i can see its got way less on it than USA windscreen.

if i interpolate it it looks to me like its missing the whole DOT-CODE M-CODE AS1 line.
i think i can just make out the german squiggle hertz/herz symbol at bottom
and it looks like it has the manufacturer description under the VW logo.

i think i might go searching on the web for images others have taken off this car.
might luck out and find a close enough shot to read it.
this could be the toughened screen not permitted in the USA?

EDIT, gave up on finding an image myself.
shot an email off to the curator since i had his contact and he did respond to me once before.
got an auto response - he is back to work on the 9th.
see if he can access the car and give us a photo.
never know.