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DRPHIL914
i started looking into this 2 years ago when i was planning my rebuild motor after the drpped valve seat on the OEM motor.
I ended up building a nice 2056 with increased compression, brand new heads, counter balanced crank and of course the cam is performance minded as well.
to start i installed the d-jet and later last year i added a 50mm bored out stock throttle body from Tangerine/Chris Foley. Yes this helped a great deal, but we are still limited due to the d-jet and the MPS. So there are a few people out there that make ITB( independant throttle body) that could be used.
One is Jenvey, and i see that PMB is carrying those. It looks ike they are mated to what ever IDF intake manifold you choose. there are 40, 45, 48 options. mated with 350cc injectors.
I am wondering other than the CB performance stuff that has been available for a while, others have come to the table, who here has played around with this ? over the years ive read a lot on others using the megasquirt and micro etc and it seemd they were very difficult to tune and set up with lots of problems, trial and error.

I am looking for advice on what to stay away from and what are the pitfalls and mistakes we can avoid before jumping into this.

Look forward to some input, thanks!!

Phil
DRPHIL914

forgot to add this link, its the PMB page listing the Jenvey line for /4 and /6 motors

https://pmbperformance.com/products/jenvey-...;pr_seq=uniform
GregAmy
We have several good discussion topics already going on this.

The Dub Shop (Mario's a super guy) has a bolt-on system. But I think he's having difficulties getting throttle bodies:

https://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-f...gnition-t4-914/

Here's a guide I wrote on my Microsquirt conversion of D-Jet (it's not a quick read*):

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2020/03/on-m...914-part-1.html

Search the site and you'll find other projects with Megasquirt and Haltech. - GA

*I did it that way mostly for myself, to remind me WiTH I did and how I got there. But I figure that if you don't have the patience to read through the thing theny ou probably don't have patience to build it... wink.gif
DRPHIL914
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Feb 6 2023, 10:30 AM) *

We have several good discussion topics already going on this.

The Dub Shop (Mario's a super guy) has a bolt-on system. But I think he's having difficulties getting throttle bodies:

https://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-f...gnition-t4-914/

Here's a guide I wrote on my Microsquirt conversion of D-Jet (it's not a quick read*):

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2020/03/on-m...914-part-1.html

Search the site and you'll find other projects with Megasquirt and Haltech. - GA

*I did it that way mostly for myself, to remind me WiTH I did and how I got there. But I figure that if you don't have the patience to read through the thing theny ou probably don't have patience to build it... wink.gif


@GregAmy

thanks for the response, i know Ethan down in jax florida started his build with the Haltec conversion using all stock parts. If Mario is having trouble getting what every ITB he was using( i had read that a while ago) then its time to find other options of ITB's that can be used which along with control systms was a reason i started this tread. Most guys seems are using other stock stuff. I will certainly give a full read thru your thread. Zach just posted on another thread someon was posting asking about his 2056 build and CR, etc that he was using 44 ITB with his , that was a another question what sized to use with a similar engine, 40's or 44's. 48's seem too large for ITB FI, . Too expensive to just buy them and get the totally wrong thing,.

Phil
GregAmy
Well, thinking outside the box, there's no reason why you can't build a system that uses Dell or Weber carbs for airflow control with the injectors installed in the manifold. I know I've seen those drilled manifolds somewhere but can't find the link now...

Mario's also got a new source for ITBs - he uses/used CB Performance prior - and I'm actually waiting for a pair of 36s to try on my street car:

https://thedubshop.com/dual-idf-throttle-bo...injectors-vwss/

Just a "play with it" test, as it should be as easy as replacing the induction and using the same fuel and electrical systems. I don't expect any significant power improvements, as I'm not currnetly seeing any significant reduction in MAP (maybe 95kPA?) even at WOT at 5500 RPM redline (point is, I think the stock D-Jet flows "enough" air now.) If found to be reasonably true, then it makes building a D-Jet-based conversion a lot easier, and a lot cheaper.

GA
Geezer914
2056, 9:1 CR. 9550 cam, 50mm vanagon throttle body. Running 1.8L jet with the AFR metering wheel richened up 4 knotches.
rgolia
I am looking hard at this as I am getting tired of the gas smell and hard starts. It seems like the dub-shop has pre-orders going on. Should I take the plunge? PMB? The dub shop? Decisions....decisions.
914Sixer
Currently sold out but more on the way.
GregAmy
You can do that. I just decided to use the stock rails and securing hardware using these injectors...they should look familiar...

https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/high-impeda...jaguar-porsche/

I replaced the straight lines with curved ones from 914Rubber (or was it Pelican? I forget).
billh1963
Probably a stupid question but are Holley sniper and similar systems too big for the Type IV? With 4 bbl intake "manifolds" available seems like that could work (if not too big).
GregAmy
QUOTE(billh1963 @ Feb 6 2023, 05:18 PM) *

Probably a stupid question but are Holley sniper and similar systems too big for the Type IV? With 4 bbl intake "manifolds" available seems like that could work (if not too big).

Depends on what you want it for and where you want the power band.

I decided on 36mm TBs (times four holes) because my 2056 is a ~9:1 street car with a self-imposed ~5500 redline and I wanted solid low- and mid-range airflow velocity for torque. We'll see how it works out.

If I was installing it on my race car, with more compression and ~6500 hard stop and no care what it does down low, then I might consider 40s, maybe 44s (I currently run 40 Dells with 36mm venturis and it seems pretty darned strong up top, wants to keep going...)

I expected the stock D-Jet induction was not going to be enough for my street car. Frankly, maybe it isn't. But I've yet to see any indications via the MAP that it's struggling for air with the stock throttle body. - GA
914werke
Ive talked to those guys, it seems the real value of those rail kits is the ability to use newer non-EV1 injectors.
JamesM
QUOTE(DRPHIL914 @ Feb 6 2023, 08:05 AM) *

Look forward to some input, thanks!!

Phil


You can run aftermarket FI without going ITBs and unless your motor absolutely needs the ITBs then you are probably better off avoiding them. Your issue isnt so much going to be the lack of airflow with the d-jet intake so much as it is the lack of adjustability with the fueling and timing. Aftermarket injection on top of stock intake. Less cost to build, easier to tune, most likely more drivable as well. Added bonus, it retains the stock appearance and uses less aftermarket parts.


QUOTE(GregAmy @ Feb 6 2023, 03:35 PM) *

I expected the stock D-Jet induction was not going to be enough for my street car. Frankly, maybe it isn't. But I've yet to see any indications via the MAP that it's struggling for air with the stock throttle body. - GA


agree.gif
If your motor is near stock or a mild performance build you will save yourself a lot of money and effort sticking with stock 1.8 or 2.0 intake plumbing (Not 1.7 though). An aftermarket ECU will always be an improvement over d-jet but no real need to change the induction plumbing unless you are planning on 140+ hp or a larger displacement 2270 etc
MSGGrunt
I have converted my 1969 TR6 with twin SU side draft carbs to FI using a kit made by Patton Machine in Maine and also converted a 1973 Mercedes 2.8 I6 using a 2-barrell EFI system by FI Tech, similar to the Holley sniper system and I have a few questions.

With the Jenvey system is there any risk of the fuel falling out of atomization before it reaches the intake at the head? Does it get input from the stock Porsche sensors? My car is a 1975 CA car, so it originally had an O2 sensor.


With the FI Tech system the 2-barrel is bolted on in place of the OEM Mercedes Solex 4A1 4-barrel. All the "brains" of the system are internal to the unit except for an O2 sensor that had to be installed.

https://fitechefi.com/product/39001-go-efi-...l-400hp-system/


On the Patton Machine system, he uses a GM computer with GM injectors and the SU carbs as just a means to flow air. It comes with a separate O2 sensor, TPS, IAC, MAP, and coolant temp sensors, so not a single unit like the FI Tech or Holley Sniper.

https://www.pattonmachine.com/shop/https-ww...m-bodied-carbs/


Like others, I like my fuel injection even if L-jetronic isn't state of the art by today's standards, but what are we to do if we want to take our 1.8 motors out to 2.0? I assume it would be more than just swapping in bigger injectors and installing a larger or bored our throttle body?





mihai914
QUOTE(billh1963 @ Feb 6 2023, 05:18 PM) *

Probably a stupid question but are Holley sniper and similar systems too big for the Type IV? With 4 bbl intake "manifolds" available seems like that could work (if not too big).


It's a valid question and I think the main issue with the Sniper EFI systems is that you lose the port injection and revert to a throttle body injection which will cause fuel atomization problems due to the long runners.

The 4 bbl might be too big but they do offer a 1bbl that may or may not fit in place of the throttle body on a 2.0 setup.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_system...l/parts/550-552
mihai914
QUOTE(rgolia @ Feb 6 2023, 02:48 PM) *

I am looking hard at this as I am getting tired of the gas smell and hard starts. It seems like the dub-shop has pre-orders going on. Should I take the plunge? PMB? The dub shop? Decisions....decisions.


I think that one of the most important aspects when going with non OE setups, even more so for a complex system like the FI, is support for that system. You want the vendor to be there for you when you will have issues, not just answering the phone but to be able to help with the technical side of things.

D-Jet has stuck around for so long because you can get parts (new and used) or have them refurbished and there is plenty of support from manuals, websites and people here.

Microsquirt, Megasquirt, SDS, Motec, etc. and the customization of the engine make it such that you are basically the only person that is able to service the FI.

Finally, many of the pro Type 4 engine builders still stick to carbs, I think they have gone through the path of trying to make EFI work on a bigger scale.

Food for thought, it's a cool project.
emerygt350
If it were me, I would see if the stock FI will work first. The djet is tuneable to a large extent if you have an afr gauge and tangerine racings upgrades to the MPS. People above have mentioned a few turns on the old Ljet made it work with a bigger engine and other improvements.

If original Fi performance can't do it, I think I would go a couple of potential routes. I kind of like the idea of 2x1barrel holley's on custom intakes. Each could have its own bank o2 sensor. Not sure if they would be happy working like that but it might work.

Another move might be seeing if holly or fi tech has moved into that port injection setup they have for V8s. If they have a version for a 4 cylinder you could potentially keep everything the same and pop on the throttle body and injectors. All kinds of potential issues there with sizes etc. but I would look.

I like the idea of a completely self contained setup so I would probably not bother looking at other cars systems if it were me.
Superhawk996
QUOTE(mihai914 @ Feb 7 2023, 08:46 AM) *

QUOTE(billh1963 @ Feb 6 2023, 05:18 PM) *

Probably a stupid question but are Holley sniper and similar systems too big for the Type IV? With 4 bbl intake "manifolds" available seems like that could work (if not too big).


It's a valid question and I think the main issue with the Sniper EFI systems is that you lose the port injection and revert to a throttle body injection which will cause fuel atomization problems due to the long runners.

The 4 bbl might be too big but they do offer a 1bbl that may or may not fit in place of the throttle body on a 2.0 setup.



Throttle body injection (TBI) is the worst version of fuel injection. Not even a step up from carbs in my opinion. You get the complexity of fuel injection with all the disadvantages of carbs.

As mentioned above - atomization, fuel drop out in the runners are major issues. You also don’t have control over fuel distribution. Fuel simply goes where it goes. Some cylinders will get more fuel than others.

Then there are mass flow effects. Having the fuel injected that far away from the cylinder creates a large time delay between the time the fuel is injected and when it gets to the cylinder. That delay affects throttle response negatively. Not much of a problem on lumbering V8’s. Not good for high reving small displacement engine’s that change engine speed more quickly.

VW & Porsche (and most other European OEMs) had the common sense to avoid TBI and go straight to port injection. The domestics were too embedded in the past and didn’t want to retool new manifolds, wiring, etc. and went for the cheap solution of TBI. When emissions could no longer be met with TBI, they were forced to go to port injection.

Don’t ignore history.

emerygt350
I work with early tbi (CFI in the ford world). It really is better than carbs by a long shot. Poor fuel distribution is a manifold issue (just like carbs). Mpi is better of course but I wouldn't go bragging up our bank fire system. Runner length is still up in the air for me. Velocities are so high and engine heat eventually gets there as well. Obviously mpi would be better but I just don't by it as a show stopper. Modern mpi engines can have incredibly long runners.
DRPHIL914


ok wow lots of great comments here i just got caught up reading it all-
this company i have known about- for a while , so i reached out to them again today, and they had an issue with their mounts. i am looking at this if i were to avoid the ITB’s and just get a programmable FI system but stay with my 50mm throttle bud and kept the direct injector, but have new improved bosch injectors that go with these fuel rails. seems keeping direct injection is best, and 50mm probably getting me plenty of air, i have an AFR ans it seems i have enough fuel although at WOT it feels like it needs more ans does go more lean, thst is so hard to change with D-jet it can’t be mapped out lik you could with a more modern FI ECU.
so maybe the Haltec EXU ans sensors to go with my stock intake runners ans 50mm TB ,
would not be a lot of $$,
Injector rehab has one set of rails and injectors, but have to make a new retaining bracket for it, so i’m drying to work out a deal with them and get that, going to look into SDS, Haltec, and get with Eric about their system they have for 2056/2270 motors they developed . not sure which ECU they use.

Phil


QUOTE(914Sixer @ Feb 6 2023, 03:05 PM) *

Currently sold out but more on the way.

Aerostatwv
I thought there is a difference with injectors. The d-jet uses low impedance injectors vs. modern FI that use a high impedance injector?
Superhawk996
QUOTE(emerygt350 @ Feb 7 2023, 11:35 AM) *

I work with early tbi (CFI in the ford world). It really is better than carbs by a long shot.


By what metric?

Emissions - Agreed. TBI was a response to inability to meet emissions regulations.

Lack of jets and small air passages to clog - sure. But now you add other sensors and actuators to system with their own associated failure modes.

Performance - no so much.

Long runners on modern engines are a function of them only having air flow in them and the fuel delivered at the intake port. Long runners of a 914 that are largely isolated from the engine will take much longer to warm up than an aluminum manifold bolted directly to heads nestled down in the valley of a V8. Not to mention the nasty, nearly 180 degree turn the air fuel mix has to make to enter the intake port of a 914. That turn is a recipe for fuel to fall out of suspension as it slams into the wall of the runner. Fuel has mass and it wants to travel in straight line rather than execute a 180 degree turn. Physics and all that.

Virtually all the performance gains of the last 30 years came from the benefits associated with port injection and direct ignition. Precision control over fuel and spark. TBI and an antique distributor isn’t optimal.

In my opinion, there is no point in taking the trip to get rid of D-jet / L-jet or even a set of well tuned carbs to land at TBI on a 914 T4 engine. Too much hassle for too little gain.
Superhawk996
QUOTE(DRPHIL914 @ Feb 7 2023, 11:57 AM) *

seems keeping direct injection is best


Totally know what you meant.

Keeping fuel injection terminology clean, direct injection is yet another incarnation of fuel injection. But now with the fuel being injected directly into the combustion chamber at sky high pressures. 914’s don’t have direct injection.

Typical multi port injection is sub - 100 psi range.

Direct Injection is at several thousand psi.
Superhawk996
QUOTE(Aerostatwv @ Feb 7 2023, 12:02 PM) *

I thought there is a difference with injectors. The d-jet uses low impedance injectors vs. modern FI that use a high impedance injector?

True

There are resistor packs that can enable The use low low impedance injectors.
Jack Standz
QUOTE(emerygt350 @ Feb 7 2023, 11:35 PM) *

I work with early tbi (CFI in the ford world). It really is better than carbs by a long shot. Poor fuel distribution is a manifold issue (just like carbs). Mpi is better of course but I wouldn't go bragging up our bank fire system. Runner length is still up in the air for me. Velocities are so high and engine heat eventually gets there as well. Obviously mpi would be better but I just don't by it as a show stopper. Modern mpi engines can have incredibly long runners.

+1

(not bragging about the bank fire system nor unfairly cricising an almost 60 year old system, but someday would like a better FI system that doesn't require gobs of $$, hours & hours of fabrication, and an intensive understanding of engineering and electronics to make it work right, just saying)

Maybe a dual TBI system with appropriate length intake manifolds would be an improvement over what many are running now? Maybe I'm dreaming, but the idea of bolting on a couple intake manifolds and throttle bodies & hooking up some sensors (OK, welding on a couple O2 sensor bungs) sounds really good to me right now especially after restoring, rebuilding and tuning a couple Dellorto carbs.
Superhawk996
What is with with the love of TBI?

Sure dual TBI on custom manifolds would be better than running a singular TBI through stock 914 manifolds.

But what have you gained?

Now you have a linkage that needs to be synchronized. Just like dual carbs. Just like dual ITB’s running multi port injection.

Now maybe need two TBI ECUs to manage two TBI’s? Now you have all the disadvantages of what has basically become an ITB setup with its issues of low and unstable vacuum signal to run a MAP sensor off of.

Dual TBI would need custom intake manifolds. At least current T4 ITB - multiport setup uses commercially available manifolds from Weber / Dellorto setup.

TBI is not some sort of magical fuel injection system that is inherently easier to tune than a multi port setup.

Am I missing something? I promise I don’t hate TBI but it is inferior to multi port injection. TBI was an emissions band-aid for a short window of time in automotive history. I’m not seeing how it makes life any easier when installed on a 914.
rhodyguy
A local member had a big T4 and I think he used the FI from a later model Mustang.
rbzymek
I worked at Ford in the engine controls department during the Carb/TBI/MAP Port Injection/Mas air Meter Port Injection time frame. Port injection is far superior to TBI for the reasons given by superhawk996. For a 2056 street car you can't beat an L-Jet system with a Vanagon throttle body. It uses a vane meter to measure airflow and can easily be adjusted to run slightly rich with an AFR meter.
mihai914
QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 7 2023, 02:32 PM) *

What is with with the love of TBI?

Sure dual TBI on custom manifolds would be better than running a singular TBI through stock 914 manifolds.

But what have you gained?

Now you have a linkage that needs to be synchronized. Just like dual carbs. Just like dual ITB’s running multi port injection.

Now maybe need two TBI ECUs to manage two TBI’s? Now you have all the disadvantages of what has basically become an ITB setup with its issues of low and unstable vacuum signal to run a MAP sensor off of.

Dual TBI would need custom intake manifolds. At least current T4 ITB - multiport setup uses commercially available manifolds from Weber / Dellorto setup.

TBI is not some sort of magical fuel injection system that is inherently easier to tune than a multi port setup.

Am I missing something? I promise I don’t hate TBI but it is inferior to multi port injection. TBI was an emissions band-aid for a short window of time in automotive history. I’m not seeing how it makes life any easier when installed on a 914.


I don't think it's a love of TBI necessarily, it's convenience and ease of execution. If you look at our use of technology in general, it's rarely the best technology available that prevails in the mass market.

Sniper EFI, FiTEch and all other similar products are appealing because they self tune, are mostly self-contained, are bolt-on in their specific applications and are not much more expensive vs. a equivalent performance carburetor.

I would be very surprised that racing teams, of all kinds, would use the above mentioned products, but for the common backyard mechanic, it does the job well.

Personally, when I look at the BugShop's offer, the kit looks well put together, but then you have to specify if you want help with tuning. I understand that the vendor can not sell a one for all type of system, and that he can't be profitable if he were to support every customer for free. It's just that at some point, you want to take something out of the box, bolt it to the car and go driving.

As for a SniperEFI type of thing, I get a nice screen and probably get to play with just enough parameters for my level of knowledge.
JamesM
QUOTE(mihai914 @ Feb 7 2023, 01:46 PM) *


Sniper EFI, FiTEch and all other similar products are appealing because they self tune, are mostly self-contained, are bolt-on in their specific applications and are not much more expensive vs. a equivalent performance carburetor.

I would be very surprised that racing teams, of all kinds, would use the above mentioned products, but for the common backyard mechanic, it does the job well.



Using the term "Self Tune" is along the lines of saying Teslas can "Self Drive" In fact I would probably say of the two that "Self Driving" requires a lot less human interaction.

Its a great sales pitch, but still requires setup and only works as well as the operator directing it.
Superhawk996
QUOTE(JamesM @ Feb 7 2023, 04:19 PM) *

Using the term "Self Tune" is along the lines of saying Teslas can "Self Drive"

laugh.gif agree.gif

I get the appeal of self tune but it’s not there yet. Just go look at the number of people having issues with Sniper running too rich, stalling, having EMI type issues, etc. I get that having the ECU in the TBi package is nice - no dispute there. Sniper still needs a good vacuum signal to run and engine temp signal.

TunerStudio for MegaSquirt offers an “auto tune” functionality that will greatly help in tuning but it still isn’t full auto tuning.

The reality of EFI is that somehow, you are going to have to learn to “tune” what you have. No different than learning to tune carbs properly.

Even with all the power of AI and latest processors in ECU’s the OEM’s still employ calibration engineers to do the final tuning and much of it is done on road to get production calibrations.

Expecting a magic “self tune” capability out of a $1k product is going to leave you disappointed. Probably even more so when trying to apply it to the quirks of air cooled engines that run hotter than water pumpers and prefer to run on the rich side to keep the heads cool enough to not drop valve seats.
Jack Standz
QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 8 2023, 02:32 AM) *

What is with with the love of TBI?

Sure dual TBI on custom manifolds would be better than running a singular TBI through stock 914 manifolds.

But what have you gained?

Now you have a linkage that needs to be synchronized. Just like dual carbs. Just like dual ITB’s running multi port injection.

Now maybe need two TBI ECUs to manage two TBI’s? Now you have all the disadvantages of what has basically become an ITB setup with its issues of low and unstable vacuum signal to run a MAP sensor off of.

Dual TBI would need custom intake manifolds. At least current T4 ITB - multiport setup uses commercially available manifolds from Weber / Dellorto setup.

TBI is not some sort of magical fuel injection system that is inherently easier to tune than a multi port setup.

Am I missing something? I promise I don’t hate TBI but it is inferior to multi port injection. TBI was an emissions band-aid for a short window of time in automotive history. I’m not seeing how it makes life any easier when installed on a 914.


"Now you have a linkage that needs to be synchronized. Just like dual carbs. Just like dual ITB’s running multi port injection."

Why can't you run a drive by wire system? You know, to address the synchronization pblm?

"Dual TBI would need custom intake manifolds. At least current T4 ITB - multiport setup uses commercially available manifolds from Weber / Dellorto setup."

So? Doesn`t seem so difficult a fabrication problem for any vendor that I'd be willing to purchase Type IV manifolds from. As you point out, IDF manifolds require customization for MPFI anyway.

"TBI is not some sort of magical fuel injection system that is inherently easier to tune than a multi port setup."

Honestly, was hoping the self-learning modes of some of these systems could be incorporated to make installing and running such a system inherently easier. Of course a magical system might be even better smile.gif.

"I promise I don’t hate TBI but it is inferior to multi port injection."

I don't hate FI either. But, the point is maybe a slightly "inferior" system that is more reasonable in cost and less time consuming to install/run has a certain appeal to us non-enginneers and non-electronic gurus.

Best wishes for your next fuel delivery system and induction methodology.

emerygt350
QUOTE(mihai914 @ Feb 7 2023, 03:46 PM) *

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 7 2023, 02:32 PM) *

What is with with the love of TBI?

Sure dual TBI on custom manifolds would be better than running a singular TBI through stock 914 manifolds.

But what have you gained?

Now you have a linkage that needs to be synchronized. Just like dual carbs. Just like dual ITB’s running multi port injection.

Now maybe need two TBI ECUs to manage two TBI’s? Now you have all the disadvantages of what has basically become an ITB setup with its issues of low and unstable vacuum signal to run a MAP sensor off of.

Dual TBI would need custom intake manifolds. At least current T4 ITB - multiport setup uses commercially available manifolds from Weber / Dellorto setup.

TBI is not some sort of magical fuel injection system that is inherently easier to tune than a multi port setup.

Am I missing something? I promise I don’t hate TBI but it is inferior to multi port injection. TBI was an emissions band-aid for a short window of time in automotive history. I’m not seeing how it makes life any easier when installed on a 914.


I don't think it's a love of TBI necessarily, it's convenience and ease of execution. If you look at our use of technology in general, it's rarely the best technology available that prevails in the mass market.

Sniper EFI, FiTEch and all other similar products are appealing because they self tune, are mostly self-contained, are bolt-on in their specific applications and are not much more expensive vs. a equivalent performance carburetor.

I would be very surprised that racing teams, of all kinds, would use the above mentioned products, but for the common backyard mechanic, it does the job well.

Personally, when I look at the BugShop's offer, the kit looks well put together, but then you have to specify if you want help with tuning. I understand that the vendor can not sell a one for all type of system, and that he can't be profitable if he were to support every customer for free. It's just that at some point, you want to take something out of the box, bolt it to the car and go driving.

As for a SniperEFI type of thing, I get a nice screen and probably get to play with just enough parameters for my level of knowledge.


Exactly.

Would I use tbi on a race engine? Possibly. Australian Ford made some impressive CFI race cars. Would I dismiss it because mpi, no, just as no one completely gives up on carbs because fi. It really is an elegant solution. Particularly when it is all self contained. Just a couple of 02 sensors and off you go.
Superhawk996
Fair points but let me address throttle by wire.

Drive by wire is but another level of complexity on top of EFI. It was about a decade of the OEMs running conventional cable operated throttles with EFI before they moved to throttle by wire.

The safety implications of moving to throttle by wire are staggering. Every prototype I’ve ever tested in has a huge red emergency stop button that kills all power - just in case anything goes haywire with throttle by wire.

Throttle by wire may seem like the “easy button” but it is anything but easy.
mihai914
QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 7 2023, 04:38 PM) *

QUOTE(JamesM @ Feb 7 2023, 04:19 PM) *

Using the term "Self Tune" is along the lines of saying Teslas can "Self Drive"

laugh.gif agree.gif

I get the appeal of self tune but it’s not there yet. Just go look at the number of people having issues with Sniper running too rich, stalling, having EMI type issues, etc. I get that having the ECU in the TBi package is nice - no dispute there. Sniper still needs a good vacuum signal to run and engine temp signal.

TunerStudio for MegaSquirt offers an “auto tune” functionality that will greatly help in tuning but it still isn’t full auto tuning.

The reality of EFI is that somehow, you are going to have to learn to “tune” what you have. No different than learning to tune carbs properly.

Even with all the power of AI and latest processors in ECU’s the OEM’s still employ calibration engineers to do the final tuning and much of it is done on road to get production calibrations.

Expecting a magic “self tune” capability out of a $1k product is going to leave you disappointed. Probably even more so when trying to apply it to the quirks of air cooled engines that run hotter than water pumpers and prefer to run on the rich side to keep the heads cool enough to not drop valve seats.


Tough crowd biggrin.gif

To quote myself:

As for a SniperEFI type of thing, I get a nice screen and probably get to play with just enough parameters for my level of knowledge.

I don't think any member here gobs the whole self tuning marketing, I take it as a starting point instead of loading a map downloaded somewhere.

Not all of us are engineers or want to play for hours with a laptop. Some of us are willing to leave some HP or torque on the table and just go driving.

What I would like as a potential customer, is for a vendor (with the help of an engineer preferably) to offer me a product that takes most of the guesswork out of the equation.

It's a great thread with a healthy debate and I hope we have vendors looking at it because it's a free focus group.
GregAmy
QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 7 2023, 04:56 PM) *

The safety implications of moving to throttle by wire are staggering. Every prototype I’ve ever tested in has a huge red emergency stop button that kills all power - just in case anything goes haywire with throttle by wire.

Ditto. I designed and installed an AEM DBW engine management system on our '08 Civic Si race car (using factory DBW components) and I made sure my kill switch is big and read and easily accessible by the monkey.

And while it removes the aggravation of possibly breaking a throttle cable and being stuck (how often does that happen?) it really doesn't offer much advantage*. I would not be comfy doing DBW in my 914. - GA

*I suspect, but certainly cannot prove, that the driving force for throttle DBW came from the mid-80s Audi "runaway" issue, and later a Toyota Camry(?), where drivers were insisting that they were smashing on the brakes but the cars kept going. It was ultimately suspected - but not proven - that the drivers were either actually pushing on the throttle instead, or more likely pushing on both, but not on the brakes as hard as they thought they were.

DBW fixed that: if you're on the throttle and brake for more than "x" seconds, even lightly, the throttle is brought back to idle.

My first experience with that was doing an HPDE in my new '00 Audi S4 while trying to left-foot-brake through the middle of the corner to balance the chassis and keep the turbos spooled; car kept going back to idle. Pissed me off royally... biggrin.gif
Superhawk996
beer3.gif The initial Audi unintended acceleration in the 80s led to brake / shifter interlock switches so that you could not put in Drive unless you 1st had your foot on the brake pedal.

Been there - lived that. Shift cable interlocks and clutch pedal switches suck.

Throttle by wire really came about for the following reasons:

1) Throttle by wire preempts driver control over the throttle blade. Example: when engine is running lean on highway cruise, the driver mashing the pedal to the floor no longer results in the throttle blade going wide open throttle resulting in further leaning out and a stumble and loss of power at the wrong instant. Throttle by wire opens the throttle for the driver in proportion to how quickly EFI can add fuel without resulting in the usual over rich mix that you get during hard accelerations by just dumping in lots of fuel open loop in response to an instant WOT by the driver.

Throttle by wire was a big aid to managing fuel economy, emissions, and catalyst temperatures. It was also very useful to help control what we used to call “Buck & Bobble” on manual transmissions where you get an unwanted feedback loop between an inexperienced drivers throttle control and the vehicle lurching due to poor clutch control.

2) Throttle by wire enables Electronic Stability Control (ESC) that was being mandated by NHTSA and EU on SUVs and high Cg vehicles. There were early attempts at ESC via spark and fuel control to cut and manage engine power but they didn’t have enough fidelity. When a stability control event occurs - stability control takes responsibility for throttle and brake commands. Cutting power too quickly can cause unwanted forward weight transfer leading to vehicle rollover. Too little power cut means the brakes are fighting driven axles.
Superhawk996
The Toyota unintended acceleration issue was a result of throttle by wire’s existence. Drivers claimed that the vehicle went Wide Open Throttle on them even though they were not pressing on the gas pedal.


Although that claim of throttle by wire running haywire was later dismissed, that is the sort of thing that I meant by staggering safety implications.

This Toyota case (and others) is among the primary reason we now have electronic data recorders (many with camera images captured) in modern vehicles. Basically a post crash black box to know exactly what you were doing in the final moments before you crashed. Think of it as a liability limiter for the OEMs and a great data set for the police to use against you if need be.
mihai914
Food for thought:

https://www.holley.com/blog/post/adapting_a...age_volkswagen/
Superhawk996
QUOTE(mihai914 @ Feb 7 2023, 06:11 PM) *

Encouraging but only proves the point that you’re going to be left to tune it.

“I think I changed just about every parameter in that EFI program to make it work. But I really like that the Sniper system self-tunes as long I provide it with the right targets and parameters for these engines, and keeps itself tuned.”

confused24.gif I’m just missing it. Self tunes - ummm OK.

But not to be dense, I get the desire to buy it from a guy like this that figures it out and then can offer it to customers with some expectation that it’s plug and play.

What gets lost in the noise is that for it to work plug and play, your engine will need to be very close in specification and in good health to have a chance of it working within the boundaries defined for that particular engine configuration.

Jack Standz
Well, I don't know how Edelbrock got it to work (or addressed the safety issues discussed above), but back in 2015 they put together this manifold that can use two DBW throttle bodies:

https://www.edelbrock.com/cross-ram-ls3-int...ifold-7141.html

Was seriously looking at getting one for an LS4 motor eventually going into a Fiero, but they don't offer it for the cathedral heads (and it's pricey, although less now than when introduced). So, it's not a type iv motor, but could be considered a proof of concept for using dual DBW throttle bodies on one motor.

And of course you can always fool around with trying to use mechanical throttle bodies and mechanical linkage if the DBW ones give you heartburn.



Superhawk996
QUOTE(Jack Standz @ Feb 7 2023, 07:45 PM) *

Well, I don't know how Edelbrock got it to work (or addressed the safety issues discussed above), but back in 2015 they put together this manifold that can use two DBW throttle bodies:

https://www.edelbrock.com/cross-ram-ls3-int...ifold-7141.html



They didn’t. They are selling you a manifold. If that manifold happens to fit GM throttle bodies that operate throttle by wire, so be it.

It’s up to you to figure out how to make the throttle bodies work. If you use a GM ECU that’s a coincidence. In the end, Edelbrock will bear no responsibility for what the end user does with their parts.

If they were selling a complete, functional system inclusive of an ECU and software they would open themselves up to functional safety implications and potential liability. Even then I’m not sure.

Currently there is a company CommaAI that is basically selling a way to hack your car to create or modify Level 2 ADAS features that can affect driver and vehicle safety. As of yet, there has been no accident or litigation. When the time comes, they will claim the driver was ultimately responsible for the vehicle safety and that they only made the hardware and the code available. How it at will turn out in court is yet to be seen.

From install PDF:
“NOTE: Proper installation is the responsibility of the installer. Improper installation may result in poor performance and engine or vehicle damage.”

Surprised it doesn’t also have the usual “for off-road use only” disclaimer too.
emerygt350
No fun car of mine is in spec. And they both have the stock fi systems that I have had to tune by hand. It's all about how hard that is and a
Sniper systems are actually engineered to deal with exactly that problem. Again, not that it will be better, but I think it would be good.

I put a four barrel Edelbrock manifold under my 2 barrel HO CFI in my mustang for two reasons. One, it's a far better manifold for the application than the original cast iron 2 barrel truck intake (Ford, you suck..), and when my computer fails and I can't replace the half dozen sensors, I can just pop a Holley sniper on top. It won't care what cam I have, what head I have or what exhaust I put on.

That is not something to scoff at. That's one afternoon and I am driving again. With about 60 more HP from what I can gather from friends in the ford world.
Superhawk996
Was reading the Holly quick start guide. This guide also applies to 914 wiring and should be should be pinned. av-943.gif

Click to view attachment

If you feel any of these are appropriate wiring - EFI is not for you happy11.gif
bkrantz
I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.
emerygt350
superhawk, that is awesome. However, I have had a cheap pair of crimpers like that for decades! Nobody steals your crimpers if they look like that.

and it's missing my patented "I can't find the electrical tape, so I guess this yellow lab tape is just going to have to work" method.
DRPHIL914
QUOTE(bkrantz @ Feb 7 2023, 10:12 PM) *

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.


thats awesome!

So the Holley system is what PMB has now gone to , you can use stock components for intake ant TB or go with manifolds and ITB . either way you have a new self learning ECU and new injectors and coils that are basically stock for a small block chevy, they are making the modification brackets for the modern new Bosch TPS and temp sensor to be mounted on our existing plenum . much easier than having to deal with the linkage issues for running separate bank of ITB's. also better to have the air temp and flow measured from one TB than multiple.

I would assume that the new system runs high impedence injectors so new ones are necessary but previlent and cheaper. This could be the quick and easy swap 914 ownders have been looking for with a FI system for less than a set of carbs.
rgolia
QUOTE(DRPHIL914 @ Feb 8 2023, 08:51 AM) *

QUOTE(bkrantz @ Feb 7 2023, 10:12 PM) *

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.


thats awesome!

So the Holley system is what PMB has now gone to , you can use stock components for intake ant TB or go with manifolds and ITB . either way you have a new self learning ECU and new injectors and coils that are basically stock for a small block chevy, they are making the modification brackets for the modern new Bosch TPS and temp sensor to be mounted on our existing plenum . much easier than having to deal with the linkage issues for running separate bank of ITB's. also better to have the air temp and flow measured from one TB than multiple.

I would assume that the new system runs high impedence injectors so new ones are necessary but previlent and cheaper. This could be the quick and easy swap 914 ownders have been looking for with a FI system for less than a set of carbs.


So what's your plan Phil?
rgolia
QUOTE(bkrantz @ Feb 7 2023, 10:12 PM) *

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.


Did you have carbs prior to installing the dub shop kit? If so, what are the benefits. That is not a cheap kit, but I am seriously considering it.
DRPHIL914
QUOTE(rgolia @ Feb 8 2023, 12:52 PM) *

QUOTE(DRPHIL914 @ Feb 8 2023, 08:51 AM) *

QUOTE(bkrantz @ Feb 7 2023, 10:12 PM) *

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.


thats awesome!

So the Holley system is what PMB has now gone to , you can use stock components for intake ant TB or go with manifolds and ITB . either way you have a new self learning ECU and new injectors and coils that are basically stock for a small block chevy, they are making the modification brackets for the modern new Bosch TPS and temp sensor to be mounted on our existing plenum . much easier than having to deal with the linkage issues for running separate bank of ITB's. also better to have the air temp and flow measured from one TB than multiple.

I would assume that the new system runs high impedence injectors so new ones are necessary but previlent and cheaper. This could be the quick and easy swap 914 ownders have been looking for with a FI system for less than a set of carbs.


So what's your plan Phil?

@rgolia
my plan now is to work with PBM to source the conversion parts they have developed, adaptors to mount the sensors, obtain the FI ECU(Holley) , and for now will
using the stock intakes and my 50MM TB on the stock plenum.

once ican do all that i will save up to eventually get the ITB from PMB(JenveyHeritage IDF 40//45)
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