Not sure if I'm just ranting, venting or just verbalizing a bit of disappointment. And let me say that I fully accept and I don't expect any guarantees (unless a seller offers one) in buying a part on the World but I'm just a bit disappointed after my recent (september) purchase of what was supposedly a very nice (possibly NOS?) 3 port fuel pump for my 914. I bought it as a spare and then found reason to actually need it a couple of weeks ago. When my service guy installed it, it leaked terribly so I had to quickly buy a remanufactured one and overnight to my service garage.

Won't disclose the seller but he is one of the most highly respected contributors on the World. We negotiated a bit and I agreed to pay $600 for this part....premium money.

I don't expect a refund but I sent a note to him telling him that the part was unusable.

What did I expect? I guess maybe a "damn, really sorry about that" or some other simple acknowledgement that spending $600 in good faith and ending up needing to spend another $500 for a re-manufactured pump is a real bummer.

But, no response. I guess in the end I am just venting and feeling like as a seller I would have handled it differently. But....I move on.

An excellent conversation starter. If the seller is one of the big 914World sellers, I hope we see a response. Always more than 5 sides to a story.

Where are you buying fuel pumps for $500-600 dollars? Are they gold plated? A Delphi pump from Rock auto goes for $126.95!

But is that a 3 port pump?

Yeah I'm one of those originality nuts and wanted to replace the pump with the original 3 port unit for my survivor. And yes, always multiple sides to a story although I think even he would have to agree with my summary as there are documented message exchanges on the transaction. I'm not looking to get into a public discussion with him here. I bought the part....at my risk. I just would have handled this differently as a seller.

I used to say years ago that "914 fuel pumps never go bad!" but then the cars got old and they all failed, either by leaking or locking up from the cars sitting. Hence we do not ever sell nor test a used pump, we automatically send them out to the Bosch rebuilder

I am sure that the seller had very good intentions, but probably did think that MAYBE a 50 year old electric fuel pump MAY have problems, if not at the time of the sale very soon after.

The three port standard on 70-74 914s was replaced by the two port front mounted pumps for the 75 76 year. It is very very very inexpensive and CAN be used as a substitute for the very expensive three port variety if you are not an originality freak like I am (lol)

Thanks George....can't disagree with anything you say. And thanks for the quick turnaround on the replacement pump.

Steve

I can see this one from both sides.

Seller may have been selling a NOS pump and they certainly are hens teeth and command a premium price. Especially for the /6 low pressure version of the 3 port pump.

But here’s the problem with anything NOS that contains rubber - especially seals. Rubber drys out and shrinks with age. 50 year old NOS seals are not a good thing.

Seller may have been in a bind. test it with fluid (gas or kerosene) and now no one will believe it’s NOS. Likewise - he gives up the price premium for NOS once it has been “used”.

Now here is my personal experience and buying on World. I bought one and tested it immediately. It worked fine and didn’t leak. I made the mistake of draining it and then having to store it for a year. Next time I used it, it began to leak. Weeping - not a ton be weeping at the electrical connector seal. Ugh!

I eventually ran it for several hours and the leak stopped. The seal must have gotten wet and swelled or possible moved a bit with thermal expansion and resealed.

When I put it away, this time I’m storing it with some kerosene sealed inside the housing hoping that helps prevent the seals from drying and shrinking. No idea if this will help or hurt. We’ll see.

One thing is for sure, it can no longer be sold as NOS or guaranteed to not leak.

I can certainly see why you are disappointed too! We all have high hopes and expectations for rare and pricy NOS parts.

So it sort of is a buyer beware, have to recognize what we are dealing with which is 50 year old parts and sometimes storage and shelf wear take their toll, even on NOS.

All good comments. Thanks.

Take the leaking pump and put it into a coffee can of gasoline for a day or two

The seal will soften and swell back to the size it should be
Problem solved

My fuel pump rebuilder says to drop whole pump in Kerosene for storage.

Thanks for that confirmation. Currently buried in storage but when I find it I think I’ll do exactly as you’ve suggested.

I bought a new used one on eBay for $100 (Bosch 3 port). It works great. It always pays to shop around.

At this point it's nearly 50 year old rubber seals and they weren't made to tolerate ethanol, so none of them are worth a crap unless rebuilt with updated seals.

I am the seller.

The fuel pump was sold as NOS in good faith. In the ad, I feel that I described the pump accurately, with no misleading info. I never tried to run it, so I had absolutely no idea if it leaked or not. Testing it would have made it used and not NOS, so I didn't test it.

I have been buying, selling, and giving away old car parts my entire life. I am sorry that the pump leaked and wasn't what you expected. The fact that it is 5am on a Sunday morning and I am up on the computer writing this instead of sleeping shows that I am bothered by it.


I have to ask... what do you want from me?

I too am in the same spot selling NOS stuff. You HAVE to assume what you are selling is good. Everyone here buys and sells on good faith. Makes me wonder about the NOS fuel pump I have to sell.

if you are lucky you might be able to bring the pump back.
run fuel through it and fill it up. cap the ports with little plastic cap seals and put it on the shelf for a week or two.

if you can't get the bottom electrical plug to seal after that then the whole pump will need to be disassembled down and the seals replaced. it can be done and that particular pump probably has perfect internals with no wear on the brushes or commutator.

i would not throw it away. or think its useless.

i've fixed two of these pumps myself, right the way down to the bottom seal.
it can be done. if you are feeling adventurous. but its only worth doing with a pump you know has done low hours.

once restored, pumps should be stored filled with either white spirits or kerosine and with the ports capped with little plastic cap lids. then bagged and sealed up.

Same thing could have happened from a big distributor that had this part sitting on the shelf for years. With those and even ebay the buyer has the ability to return for a full refund.

The options I see here are, send back the unit and send a refund.

Keep it as a spare and ask for the seller to pay for the rebuild and then you'll have a rebuilt spare.

Hopefully both sides can work it out and feel good about the transaction.

A note on originality. Sometimes I fall into this trap as well, but I'll be damned if I will fall into a trap with using an out dated less efficient design as in the early FP setup. 3 ports why? Later style serves the same purpose and has less plumbing right? You can buy the new style FP almost 5 times over for just one 3 port. Even if the older pumps were in abundance and cheap I would probably still convert as again its less plumbing. "Well it's not concourse" Yep! You're right! AND I'll drive my non concourse, rusted, bondo covered S box more in one week than you drive your concourse gem in 5 years" - not directed at anyone in particular unless you are a snob. Ok I digress.

Back to being buddies

If he bought the part "as is" end of story.
You were not forced into buying that one. You chose that one, thinking you were getting a good deal. It sucks and I get it, but going all Karen is not cool.

Matt

@Superhawk996
@914Sixer
I have a spare pump that I keep “in car”. Can soak it in kerosene but any suggestions as to what/how to keep “in car” for roadside breakdowns?
PS: it is rebuilt (somewhat recently, in Sept 2022, AFAIK), not NOS.

This is the kind of response I'd hope for from a 914World member. Surprised no one has commented on it. Thanks Clay, for stepping forward. Hope you guys can work it out.

Mechanical devices can be tough to set expectations but I think anyone buying NOS at a premium price, buys it with the expectation that it works correctly. I hope you guys get it worked out.

HeyClay,

Had no intention of mentioning who the seller was. And as you can tell from my message to you privately or here, that I was asking nothing nor did I even begin to claim that you knowingly sold a bad product. I guess what I had hoped for when I messaged you privately was what I said in this post....."Damn....I'm really sorry 'bout that. Wish we both could have had a more positive outcome". It was more the lack of response to the private message I sent telling you that the part was unusable, that seemed disappointing. I had no intention of using a the public forum when I messaged you but then, as I think you can understand, when I got no response....well it just bothered me. As a seller I would not do that.

I've bought a lot of NOS parts.....many from Mark. I know the risk in buying old parts. Knowing what I do now about the perils of old pumps I probably would not have purchased....but that's my problem and my learning experience.

Steve

@starbear

I just used bits of hose and bolts as plugs with hose clamps to seal to keep the kerosene inside the pump. Then double bagged it in ziplock freezer bags just in case.

If I were going to carry that in a car, bouncing around, I’d probably get one of those small waterproof plastic boxes (sorta’ like Tupperware) and put the bags in that. That way, no risk of leaking in car and smelling kerosene forever.

Great! Thanks. Now, where to get kerosene - a camping store or flaps

Clay you have honesty and integrity and are a great example to us all of what a 914 owner should be.

Questions to anyone….why kerosene and not just gasoline? What are white spirits….paint thinner?

kerosene has a lubricant in it.

I gotta be honest. I don’t think anyone owes anything in this scenario except sorry it didn’t work out. Nothing was done intentionally

Kerosene is less volatile and doesn’t evaporate like gasoline.

Kerosene doesn’t turn to that gummy, varnish like deposit as quickly as gasoline.

Kerosene is compatible with NBR seals (I’m assuming pump has NBR - was common in 70s).

Kerosene not as flammable as gasoline.

As stated in earlier comment, kerosene is actually a light oil and has some lubricity that gasoline doesn’t.

Basically - safer than gasoline.

I don’t know what white spirits are (don’t speak proper Kiwi or Aussie ). Mineral Spirits are a lighter more volatile solvent than Kerosene. I’m not good at organic chemistry but I think it falls somewhere between Kerosene and Gasoline.

Unfortunately, this particular part has rings that will dry up just from sitting around. My pump just started leaking from sitting in winter storage.

Question Re safekeeping: I have a spare fuel pump in a my emergency bag. Should I fill the pump with kerosene and plug up the ends? And, will the kerosene affect the gas as it passed through ?

Dump the kerosene 1st. When pump fills with gasoline the tiny bit of residual kerosene inside won’t be an issue. It will be quickly diluted by gasoline.

thats an interesting one.
i probably would not be driving around with a bagged fuel pump full of kero.

but yes as @Superhawk996 notes. you flush it with fuel before use.
thats a bit of a messy operation.
you need a couple of plastic bottles with fuel in them and catch bottles.
and you need to run it through a few times to flush it all out.
you would do this first with the pump external to the car and running off a battery.
Superhawk is correct on the chemistry of the kerosine. its almost like immersing the pump in oil. protects against internal corrosion, keeps seals moist and expanded and does not itself age and turn to goo. i would not store a pump full of petrol. that is never going to work. likewise if you pulled a pump off and wanted to keep it - first thing is to flush all fuel out of it.

i might have to slightly disagree with Superhawk on a small detail.
the whole body of the pump will be internally filled with kero.
so it takes a little bit of running for the pump to eject all the kero out of the internals.
the fuel in the pump is the lubricant for all the internals of the pump.
its fully flooded with fuel normally. hence that pesky electrical plug gasket that is very painful to replace. most folks would not bother.
i rebuilt my pumps just for the fun of it. i wasn't even sure i would be able to when i did but i had a shot at it. i knew the internals had not done a lot of hours so if i succeeded i would in fact have good pumps. to be truthful i did not think the pumps could be rebuilt until a guy with a citroen DS running D jet i met one day told me it could be done and he had done it. he sent me some photos of what he went through to rebuild. i followed his instructions. if you are interested my rebuild of the pumps is documented here.
Sir Andy posted it up in the lepuwali section of the website.

I am thinking I want nothing to do with older pumps. The fuels we use now sure don’t help.

white spirits is turpentine. similar to kerosine. an oily hydrocarbon liquid.

thats a very good point too for you guys in the USA.
the old seals definitely would not be up to your higher bio fuel content.

i rebuilt the pumps i have with nitride seals.
i am not sure even they are up to biofuel content.

its getting harder to keep some of this old stuff on the road and sometimes its just not worth the bother when you are up against it with problems that were not there in the 1970s when the equipment was engineered and designed.

if you are a concourse nut ( i sort of am but not really, don't do concourse, but have an interest in vintage technology is all) and insist on a 3 port pump and you have a pre 75, with the pump down there under the engine (for concourse purposes) - man you might be playing with fire. some things really aren't worth being too hung up about.

we don't have the biofuel content problem down here........not yet anyway.
but i can see it is probably coming in the decade ahead.

i am of the opinion that the pump clay sold would come good.
if it was never filled with fuel and it was stored in a box out of the light and was not subject to huge temp fluctuations it would likely seal up of its own accord once flooded with fuel.

the plus side of such an NOS pump is the internals ought to be good.
no wear.
and no corrosion if it was bagged or the ports were at least plugged.

i bought some injectors for my 1.8 from a guy in arizona.
he had them for his beetle cabriolet and he had purchased them new in the 1990s.
they were all still bagged, never opened and with the pintal caps on .
the worst that could have been with those was the rubber hoses might have deteriorated.
but they had been stored in the dark in a cupboard in their boxes.
they are on the car and have been on the car for three years now.
doing real well.
no leaks so far.
so it is possible for this stuff to survive but it does need to have been stored well.

often mechanics can be dismissive.
i know when we were bringing my 914 back mike did not just dismiss the leaking fuel pump on mine which was gushing fuel from every orifice. he let it sit for a week full of fuel as others here have suggested. reason. it was actually making fuel pressure and working despite having sat for 16 years with the car. but it did not come good.
the top seals stopped leaking but the electrical plug seal would not come good on its own. so we had to give up.

I completely agree. Wasn't looking for anything from Clay....except a simple response from what was a private message to him. As responsible World members I think we owe each other at least that in these situations.

As far as I'm concerned we can be done with this....except for the interesting part about preserving these things with Kerosene.

This actually has been informative about kerosene and made me think about that moving forward

as an aside you actually test fuel pumps with kerosine.

you'd be crazy to do it with fuel.
the kero is nowhere near as flammable.
its got pretty much the same characteristics as fuel.
after i rebuilt the pumps all the pressure and flow testing i did was with kero.
at the end of testing it i just left the kero in and plugged them.
then bagged.

to flush out - same set up. except have a bottle of fuel and discharge to empty bottle.
our kero is stained blue. for safety purposes. so children don't think its water i believe.
or something like that. so its easy to tell you have got most of it out. the flushed liquid will start to look clear once you get most of the kero out. it takes a little while and a few flushes to get get it all as its down in the body of the fuel pump and most of what you want to flush through keeps going through the port chamber at the top.

Click to view attachment

Cool blue

Here it’s either clear or red. Red means it is not taxed and is for off-road purposes such as heating. The problem is the red dye just creates more carbon deposits and fouling of kerosene heaters.

Wondering; would just a few squirts of spray household oil or WD40 into each port be sufficient?

Nope. Would never get to the seals

NOS is NOS. Buyer beware. I've bought a lot of NOS parts. 70% they work as new. Rest they don't. It's a risk on the buyer's part.

as per @Superhawk996 .
you got to flood the baby top to bottom.