Hello

Can heads be removed from a 914 engine without removing the engine from the car?

Thank you.

Yes, but it's not worth it IMO.

Popping drivetrain out is gravy and it gives you options for repair.

Is your rear seal 25+ years old? Change it now.

Clutch old? Same advice.

Need belts (especially ac belt) Out is the time.

Many things are far easier with it out.

I believe the engine should come out for maintenance every 20 years...

I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and say no.

At least not without a sawzall. Just pull the motor and transmission together, then you can get to the cylinder heads.

Best wishes for a successful fix!

I've heard of people doing it with drastically lowering front of engine or taking the head studs out.
I've not personally done this.

To me removing drivetrain is 10 times easier and the only way I'd do it

not a big deal to remove if fact IMO one of the easier bigger jobs on a 914 ,just make sure you pre-soak various nuts and bolts with penetrant spray ,exhaust head nuts require the most and the application of some heat helps so you don't strip them or snap the studs.
Carefully mark wiring you remove and take photo's before you remove other stuff,get some snaplock bags and mark them in relation to where the fastenings came from.
Good luck and take your time ,cheers.

Why not just take the car off the head

There’s just something about 914s that encourages people to try to do things the hard way.

I think just owning a 914 that gets driven at all (including in the future) is the hard way.

I have removed a head without taking the engine out of the car. The only reason I did it was that I was working in a car port and I didn't have a place to store the drivetrain out of the car.

But I would have pulled the engine if I could have.

NOPE

Sorry Doc.. on this one you are wrong. I did it years ago on a cold winter day. The engine dropped a valve seat. I had to replace the head to get to work the next day. And I didn't have a garage, just a carport and a shed.

So I stripped the engine tin off that side while it was in the car, and loosened the crossbar enough on that side so the engine would sag and the head would clear the suspension console. I pulled the head and replaced it with another one that I had in the shed.

It was not easy, and I would never recommend it to anyone. It was a dirt ball way of doing it, but it had to be done so I could keep my job. And laying on concrete n a 20 degree farenheit day saps your stamina quick. I had to stop every 30 minutes to warm up.

The right way to do this is to pull the engine out of the car.

Yes you can do it. Way easier if you have carbs.
It kinda sucks but it is possible.
Many of us here have done it, and it can be faster then pulling the engine. But you will get banged up fingers and knuckles working around the rest of the car.

If you need to do both side just drop the engine. Really, its easier.

If you have stock FI it has to come out.
If carbs, unhook everything, and lay the carb over to the side of the engine that is not getting removed.
Front tray comes off first.
Then the fan comes out. Then the doghouse.
Then you can pull off the tin over the head.

Under the car the exchanger come off.
Valve cover off.
Wire pushrod retainer comes out.
Rockers come off, and pushrods out.
Now the pushrod tubes. You may need to lower the front of the engine a little here.

With the tubes out, using a jack under the engine bar, unbolt the engine bar from the car and let the engine pivot down a few inches.
Now you should be able to pull the head off, do your work and put it back on.

Bear in mind you are flexing the hell out of your transmission mounts if you did not at least loosen the bolts at the trans end.

I've done it. It isn't fun. I probably saved a day in the repair by not dropping the engine.

Again, if you are doing both heads, at that point it really is a lot faster to just drop the engine.

Zach

Don't mean to criticize, but why would you do this repair this way?

Yes, there's so many repairs we've done because we have to get to work the next day, fortunately that's not an issue for most of us with 914s as most are not used as our only or even primary transportation.

If the engine bar is unbolted and the transmission bolts are already loosened (and the fuel injection is removed), how much more does it really take to remove the engine? (Remove the accelerator cable, clutch cable, speedo cable, unplug wiring, and the cv bolts - which should take maybe 15 minutes? Unless you don't have the triple square tool for the cv bolts)

Seems like a tremendously more difficult and time consuming way to swap a cylinder head. Don't do it.

pistonboy

I have one question....

Why do you want to remove the head?

Becasue it CAN save time in the right circumstances.

I know everyone claims t be able to drop an engine in an hour....
And maybe they can if they spent the prior evening doing all the unhooks and removals.

For me at about a 4-6 hour job to pull an engine start to finish. Start being when the car pulls into the shop and the clock starts when I start draining the oil.

If you have helpers - maybe it goes faster.

But by the time the oil is out. Electric is undone. Exhaust is off. CVs are undone and bagged. Fuel is undone and capped. Battery is out. Harness is unplugged. Shift bar is out. Anything from the induction that won't clear the back of the car is removed. Oil cooler unplugged. 02 sensor undone (my car is different, but not THAT different).

AND you have dealt with all the usual home hobbyist BS that come up while working on a project car (wife says empty the trash, dinner is ready, dog needs to go out, your turn to change diapers, pause to drink a beer or smoke something, work calls, pick your distraction).

Not to mention the maybe stripped out CV bolt that you end up having to weld on to the driver in order to get it out, or and whatever other mechanical issues will arise when dealing with a 50 year old car.

I'm pretty good at pulling an engine. But it takes a good bit of time to do it.

And then there is putting everything back together. Did you remember to order the new Schnorr washers in advance? What about new CV bolts? New gaskets? New cone screws for the shift bar? New oil? You should not reuse any of them, and the corner store MAY have the right oil and WILL NOT have any of the other things. So now you are delayed by several days to a week waiting for $25 in parts.

Putting the engine back in usually goes faster, but its still a 3-4 hour job from pushing the engine under the car to turning the key to start the engine, assuming everything goes RIGHT.

There are valid reasons to do it with the engine in the car that most of us probably don't think about or vastly underestimate the time needed to do the work. But if you don't mind working in cramped conditions with a little more risk of badness, you can pull the head and replace it saving both time and money.

About 7-10 hours can be saved by not dropping the engine. That savings gets eaten into by the work you are doing taking longer due to cramped conditions and poor visibility. So a smaller job may make sense, and a larger one certainly DOES NOT make sense.

So, if you need to do both heads - pull the engine. Totally agree. At that point you are not saving time or money.

Zach

Can almost always count on you guys to get a laugh.

This is the way

I built my first 914 in the summer of '81 and then headed down the 5 from Oregon to LA. It turned out that an air breather hose that the dealer pulled out of a bin of hoses and clamps had the screw from a hose clamp stuck inside it. Coming down the Sisikyou mountains the screw broke loose and went through the intake and embedded itself in the piston. On the side of the south bound 5 I was able to loosen the head, slip it back, knock the screw out the the top of the piston and then button it up again and complete my drive.
So yes, it kinda can be done, but you need a pretty good reason.

I think some people just like to do things the most difficult way possible. It could probably be done, but who wants to spend hours laying on their back and fighting with every nut and bolt you need to remove to loosen and remove the exhaust system, intake manifold, cylinder tins, and then finally the head, just to say you changed a head without removing the engine from the car?

Ya’ all making it too complicated.

Drain oil?
Remove exhaust?
External oil coolers?

Those are choices to add more work. Not mandatory to remove a basically stock engine. Yea pic below is carbureted but it will all still come out as an assembly with FI.

Click to view attachment

Having dropped a few beetle motors onto tires, then wrestling them out from under a car two friends lifted up….all so I could go to work on Monday after replacing heads…..I get it.

But it does make me wonder.
In theory, could one rest the engine and trans on some wooden blocks (free) then remove everything required to drop the engine, but instead….lift the car up and roll it ( walk it) forward over the engine???? Hmm

Or ( now I must try this)
Use lift to pick car straight up 2++ feet off motor.

Rich

Once saw a Fiero engine/trans/subframe package removed that way.

Used car tech made a cradle for the subframe and slowly lowered the car down on it. The car was about 2.5 feet high at this point.

Knocked everything loose and was expecting to lift car off of engine package with the lift the body was chucked up on.

He didn't think about the CG change that would occur and when he removed the last bolt that held subframe to body the body slowly tilted ass end up to about 45 degrees and the car slid forward off of the lift and landed on its plastic nose.

This was at a Mazda/Fiat dealer that had 15 techs and we all ran over and grabbed ahold of the car.

We pulled it back onto the lift and roped it down.

Didn't hurt it at all.

Scared the crap out of that tech though...

OK, fair enough. Good you got it fixed.

For me, 40+ years of standing on my head in the engine compartment and crawling under the 914 on cold cement or worse gravel, is enough. So I try to minimize doing those things.

I think the worst repair I had was putting the plastic pivot bushing behind the throw out lever, without removing the engine/transmission. Ground an Allen wrench into a special tool. Haven't done that job like that since then.

In just the last 13 months, I've removed/ installed two motors by myself. I can think of worse things to invest my time doing .

Just drop the engine, it's quick and everything becomes so much easier once it's out of the car.
http://www.914world.com/specs/tech_engdrop1.php

Not being at all sarcastic. How do you remove the engine without pulling off the exhaust? Are you pulling the axles out of the car? If not how are you manipulating the shafts and CVs to get them out of the way?

Zach

Axles live above the heat exchangers right? So, it’s just disconnecting the CV’s and manipulating them up and over the top of the transaxle and the engine as that assembly goes down and rearward.

I wrap the CV joints in double Zip-Loc freezer bags or cover them with heavy duty 7mil plastic garbage bag plastic so they don’t get contaminated when manipulating them in the instance where they occasionally bump the trans in the process of flipping around. Sometimes the assembly has to wiggle side to side a little here or there in that process. Having the exhaust / heat exchangers on it is sort of like having handlebars. Makes it easy to wiggle . Now keep in mind, not exerting any serious leverage on them - don’t want to stress exhaust studs or put any real force into the heads. By keeping the muffler support bracket in place it also keeps the heat exchangers from twisting around and putting stress on the heads. If something isn’t going right - just block it temporarily and readjust.

It’s a matter of having the rear end of the car high enough so that the when the assembly is lowered, the axles can then be guided over the engine as the assembly is pulled rearward from under the car. 10 -15 minutes spent ensuring the car is high enough before starting saves hours of frustration trying to pull an engine if the vehicle isn’t high enough. I’ve learned that lesson the hard way decades ago.

Picture I posted was done by me alone (dog only supervises), with a single hydraulic jack, and the tangerine engine plate . No tricks like using a 2 post hoist or anything like that.

Click to view attachment

Disconnect the CVs at the transmission and zip-tie the axles up towards the trunk floor. Or if you're lazy, just let the axles rest on top of the heat exchangers.

When you lower the engine/transmission combo and slide it out the back, all you need to do is make sure the axles don't hang up on anything.

The engine/transmission/exhaust/muffler will come out as one unit.

@Karl R I know that road well. I hope you were on the passenger side of the car. The driver's side would get pelted by debris from 18 wheelers zooming by. Helluva fix!

@pistonboy See post #29: First engine pull

After the first time it gets easier and faster.

This is one of my favorite pictures in the shop manuals...

It's such an amazing creation....a complete powertrain unit altogether in this compact arrangement lowered all at once.

The only real gotcha is remembering to remove the ground strap from the tranny to the body



Click to view attachment

Yep. We owned two Fieros, still have the '88 GT. That's how you remove the motor, by pretty much standing the car on its nose and dropping the cradle that holds the motor and transmission (just 4 fasteners). Hopefully, without dropping it and safely for everyone.

BTW, removing the heads without removing the engine/transmission is doable in a V6 Fiero. But, you endup sprawled out over the trunk area while also standing on your head in the engine compartment.

Such is the beauty and burden of owing and working on mid-engined cars whether a 914 or a Fiero.

I used to have a dolly made out of a 1" thick section of plywood and some metal wheels. I think there were also 2x4 blocks between the wheels and the plywood to raise it high enough that you could slip jacks under it. So I would raise the car on stands, jack the dolly up under the motor/trans, drop the motor onto the dolly, lower the dolly, pull the jacks out, and roll the dolly out from under the car. I think it was also necessary to raise the car further after the engine was on the ground but before you rolled it out because the dolly would not go high enough to get under the engine when the car was high enough for the assembly to roll out. But, anyway it was an easy, quick and safe. But you do need enough room behind the car to roll the assembly out and have space to work on it back there. Which my current 914 does not have.

It appears there is a good chance this engine has bad valve guides. It has been built with 80mm stroke and 96mm bore and has been in the engine approximately one month and has 550 miles on it.

BACKGROUND:
On another 914 of mine, (I have four 914's) I had a builder increase the 1.7 liter engine to 82mm stroke and 96 mm bore. After 50 miles, the engine had a screeching sound while idling and the rpms dropped and would die. I speed dialed the builder and had him listen to it over the phone. He said it probably was the guides. He mentioned another person who had the same problem with an engine he, the builder, had built for him. (I was aware of this person and the problem because the mechanic who switches engines at my house had switched this person's engine also.) I returned the engine to the builder. An employee removed the valve cover and pointed to small pieces of the guides and confirmed the guides were wearing. That engine was repaired and reinstalled. It now has 600 miles and is running OK.

NOW BACK TO THIS ENGINE:
I purchased another engine from this builder and placed it in another of my cars. The builder said it too had the same guide problem but was now repaired. This engine too has developed the same screeching sound with the idle speed dropping. It is the same symptoms with as the previous engine. As I put some miles on it (500 miles) it now has pops and coughs and will not idle smoothly. I am hoping a valve adjustment will cure the problem, but I am not hopeful.

I suspected it is best to remove the engine, but thought I would ask. Perhaps the people of this forum know some things I would not know. I have rebuilt two corvair engines and one opel GT engine. I am 73 years old now and do not like working on cars as much as I formerly did. Besides, being clusterphobic, I have never liked being under cars (especially being in southern California and approximately 5 miles from the San Andreas earthquake fault line).

It is not decided yet that it is the guides. Just probable.

Thanks.

Buy the $12 moving dolly from harbor freight.

I blew a head about 2 hrs from home

trailered it back, debated trying to take the head off with motor in the car

My dad convinced me otherwise...in my apartment garage (management was very cooperative) took maybe 3 hrs would have been half that if we knew what we were doing

He passed away 2 years ago this fall

.Click to view attachment

Sure miss fixing cars with my dad. I continue on, but its not the same. Actually, I went by his grave site the other day with photos of my new 914 acquisition since I know he would have been thrilled.

All of those with dad/wrenches try to savor the time, he probably won't be around forever. My dad has been gone for 20 years, wasn't very good with a screwdriver, but wouldn't have traded him for anybody else. We only get one dad, treasure what you get.

I read this, and started thinking about my dad. We lost him in December of 2020. Not to Covid, but he fell in the bathroom and hit his head.

I remembered us working together to build his 55 Chevy Bel-Air convertible. Months of work, and we got to take to to the Vintage Chevy club national meet. We got second in the concour to a professionally restored 55 Bel-Air 4 door.

And that's when the onion ninjas showed up.

Sorry for the thread hijack.