After seeing Bretts post this morning on his project car (which is pretty darn cool), I was wondering what point is the car no longer a "914"

Is the line crossed when a different make of motor is put in?? almost any German motor is okay in my book

To you is an Audi motor okay but not a Subaru?
sorry, I cannot do the Suby, it's just "wrong"

What about the chassis?

For PCA racing, I believe one must have the firewalls and the longs...

As much as I like the full tube frame cars, they are no longer a 914, just an image of one.....

Suspension: Would swapping to modern P-car parts be okay? such as using the suspension from Boxster, I like the idea, but not allowed in PCA except X or fun runs I think

What about all new and non-P-car designed suspension?

I figure I'm ok because the LT1 pistons are made by Mahle.

For GT classes I thin in the IMSA days it had to be the door jams and firewall. With old SCCA it had to just be the windshield frame and glass only? Engine had to be "available from the factory" or as noted by the CP 914's with 2.0L engines and CP3 with 2.5L engines and stock fenders, etc. I guess the "heart" is what determines it? As with Ron Mistak's 914-GT1 it has a complete modern rear suspension console grafted to the back of the car, center seating and lots of tubes and PCA lets it run.

Personally I don't care if my car is a 914 or not. Maybe that means I have no soul. For me the 914 is cool, but can be made more cool by doing things to it like replacing the engine, improving the suspension, etc. I still consider it a 914, but its not really important to me.

If the only thing left on the car is exterior body work, then there isn't much 914 left. Maybe its a 913.1 ? I'd say its up to the individual to decide where they stop calling something a 914 and start calling it a tube car with a 914 body.

Maybe when you exceed 50% of the 914ness with something other than 914 its no longer a 914??? But what is it that makes a 914 a 914? I bet that varies with time and who you ask...

-Tony

Chrysler had suspension designed by Lotus... does that make the car a lotus?

Or is it the motor that defines the car... Damn we worship a VW then

Is it what the logos say... Nope, that's the ricer mentality

I like to believe the intent of the car, it's soul if you will, is what classifies a car.

Sadly this mean a 914 w/ a Chevy small block is more porsche than a new 911 cab. It fit's in w/ F.Porsches philosophies better than the burl wood equiped tip tronic look at me cars being produced today.

That should get some responce

What's with the italics? Is that your gollum persona talking?
We likeses crazy-ass engine conversionses

As stated previously, the Subaru engine appears to have been based on the VW Type1 engine. Since the very first Porsches also used modified Type1s, I fail to see how the Subaru engine is not a perfectly valid engine for the 914. Meanwhile, Porsche has never used an inline-six, yet by your rules, a BMW inline six would be valid simply because it's German. What if I used a tiny two-stroke out of a DKW or a Wartburg?

The Wankel was invented at NSU, and appeared in a goodly number of NSU Ro80s, all German cars. Since the Mazda rotary is just an improved derivation of that engine, it too should be allowed under the "German rule". The factory even made a Wankel 914...

Porsche makes V8s...

btw, the 944 engine used a lot of technology licensed from Mitsubishi. Does that make it Japanese? Are BMWs assembled in the Carolinas American? How about Alabama-made Mercedes? The only Nissan I ever had was made in Tennessee, and the first two VWs I had weren't made in Germany...

As long as it only runs 2-3 months a year it qualifies as a 914.

My next project will be a full tube frame mid-engine car, 3.6TT (600hp), G50 (or later) tranny and modern Porsche suspension.

The body work will be immediately identifiable as 914 and I intend to badge it accordingly.

To me, Porsche, Audi and VW engines are acceptable because they are, or have been, the same company. I will not consider BMW or Mercedes engines.

I consider myself to be a life-long 914 enthusiast and 914s will always play a central roll in my designs.

oooops.

The above statement was mine, not Luckie's.

I look for the sail panel when Im identifying 914s. You can spot the sail panel on any body kit (Chalon, Rayco, etc) quickly, and I think its the defining characteristic of the 914. If you cut off the sail panel, its lost its "914-ness" to me.

Crazy, eh?

sorry had to, i see a suby engine just as the next step. if porsche had kept the design, i would think as emissions got harder the would have gone to the wasserboxer to keep temps under control. then when they found the problems the wasserboxer had it would have evolved in to basicly the suby motor. and at least it is aboxer motor, not a v or a inline anything

take a look at the suby motor, and a porsche 6 ( both air and water ) the suby looks a lot like a 6 with 2 cylinders cut off.

and i will throw in my hypo idea, does the guy who build 4 cylinder engines using 6 cylinder and pistons with a basicly cut down 6 crank count as a 914

QUOTE (MikeP @ Aug 16 2005, 04:03 PM)

As long as it only runs 2-3 months a year it qualifies as a 914.

due to current owner and age, not original design

QUOTE (MattR @ Aug 16 2005, 04:20 PM)

I look for the sail panel when Im identifying 914s.  You can spot the sail panel on any body kit (Chalon, Rayco, etc) quickly, and I think its the defining characteristic of the 914.  If you cut off the sail panel, its lost its "914-ness" to me. Crazy, eh?

based on aesthetic exterior body design. The targa and signal light pods are distinctive of the 914 styling...

If someone were to create I don't know let's say a modern version, these would be easily identifiable aka product identity.

You can make it out of whatever you want, if it looks like a 914 then 95% of the Porsche "purists" out there will hate it, and that makes me love it all the more

I think this is one of them rhetorical questions with no answer and Mueller is just funnin with us, see if he can get someone excited.
There's threads on FerrariChat about a rebuilt old race car thats been going on for over a year, with lots of experts and lots of pissed off people.
I think if it has enough of the original tub and VIN and is registered as a 914 than it's a 914.
Now if it's a race car with no VIN then you've got a bonnet full of bees. Or a can of worms, or a tempest in a teapot, or....

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Aug 16 2005, 05:00 PM)

QUOTE (MattR @ Aug 16 2005, 04:20 PM) I look for the sail panel when Im identifying 914s.  You can spot the sail panel on any body kit (Chalon, Rayco, etc) quickly, and I think its the defining characteristic of the 914.  If you cut off the sail panel, its lost its "914-ness" to me. Crazy, eh? based on aesthetic exterior body design. The targa and signal light pods are distinctive of the 914 styling... If someone were to create I don't know let's say a modern version, these would be easily identifiable aka product identity.

I agree. That's why my car has them still.

There is a point that you're putting too much engine/HP in the 914 wheelbase even with a full tube frame. You can develop the package all you want but one day you will have to get away from the 914 shape and size to go fast. The twin turbo 914 that runs in PCA is still not the fastest car.

If I wanted to build a true tube frame P-car it would me modeled after a 908-3 not a 914. I think a 908-3 would be pretty easy to build or at least no harder than a 914. And much easier than a 917 with a -6.

It is the class rules that determine what you build and where you can run it. I think the GT-1 914 is grandfathered in PCA. You can't buld and race that car now.

P

Make it what YOU want.

Some people want concourse.

Some people want all Porsche.

Some people are OK with a Suby or Chevy transplant.

How in the world do you tell if a Porsche six or a Raby 4 is more "Porsche-914-like?????"

If you are racing in a class that has rules, then you need to be concerned and comply. Otherwise....... MAKE IT YOURS!!!!

What turns YOUR crank???? MAKE IT YOURS!!!!

QUOTE (Rand @ Aug 16 2005, 09:26 PM)

What turns YOUR crank???? MAKE IT YOURS!!!!

I think a 914 tub with the bottom rusted out would fit on this one pretty nicely:

E-Bay Euro "Supercar"

Wouldn't be much Porsche there, but would look line one, and it sure would be fun.

QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 16 2005, 02:51 PM)

After seeing Bretts post this morning on his project car (which is pretty darn cool), I was wondering what point is the car no longer a "914" Is the line crossed when a different make of motor is put in?? almost any German motor is okay in my book What about the chassis? As much as I like the full tube frame cars, they are no longer a 914, just an image of one.....

In my own 2 cw,it probably comes down to ones taste.


What is one looking for in style or taste.

For me,I liken this is to kit bikes.I bought a real Harley from a real dealer back in '95.

Other guys watch American Chopper on tv and say that that is what they want.Difference is,the kit bike on A.C.doesn't have a single part on it with a Harley part#.Even the title won't say Harley.They call it a Harley.Trust me,the Harley guys know the difference.

Same thing with extremely modified 914's.
I saw a pic of one posted here some time back,came from England I think.Caption was the guy had to much time and money on his hands.Beautiful car,but just like the kit-bikes,it probably will end up being just another Garage Queen.Only to be brought out for some special event,where it's owner can brag to his friends about how much money & work it took to build it.

As for me,I wanna drive mine,I wanna see what it's potential is,and have fun with it.


Ron

I'm with the "aesthetics" crowd here. If it looks like a 914, updated or otherwise, then the driver has probably got that same Narpy chip on the shoulder that I have, SBC or not. Full tube frame with lightweight 914 body panels? If it's kicking butt at the track then I am pointing it out and saying "look at that....just like my car".

I had a great reply last night but the Club kept timing out or giving me a "page load error" that I just went to bed,

QUOTE (Brett W @ Aug 17 2005, 04:21 AM)

I had a great reply last night but the Club kept timing out or giving me a "page load error" that I just went to bed,

(copied this last night to my clipboard )
who me, cause trouble??? never

just thinking out loud and wondering what other people thought...as usual with me and others, I'm sure I'll change my mind/thought later on this week

James, not "any" german motor, it still has to follow a few rules of mine...

I guess you are correct, with cars and parts being made in darn near every country now and with quite a few of them being copies (like Scott mentioned in another post the 2.7 /6 has parts that are near identical replacements for some Subaru motors) the line is getting blurry between makes and models.

Even my own car I'm changing it so that it wouldn't be "confused" as a stock 914....it'll still look like a 914, it'll just be a little more "rice"