Greetings 914 nerds, addicts and general weirdos.
I apologize in advance for dumb questions.

So I'm at that time in life, where I have to decide, do I get a motorbike, or maybe a hot young girlfriend, or start dressing like I'm half my age.
Or all three of those things.

I've checked with my wife and she veto'd the bike and the girlfriend.


So I'm thinking about another option. For about 10 years I daily drove a '00 Miata (don't buy a '00 Miata in CA emissions spec). I loved that car and I really miss it. I also really want a nice mechanical project (I pretend to be a mechanical engineer for my job, I helped do some mild restoration on a '74 2002Tii a decade ago, but we didn't fab anything for that).

All of which is a very long winded way of saying that I would like some advice.
My in-laws own three 911's between them, but I really don't like 911's as a driving experience, everything is heavy and hard work (I was really spoiled by that Miata). So while I would like to be able to drive to Rennsport with the family in their funny german cars, I'm thinking a 914 might be more my style of driving experience (and in my price range)
And a 914 also means I don't need to worry about smog. AND I really want to do an engine swap (I keep watching all the youtube videos, Project Binky is the greatest thing ever).

So, the actual questions:

As someone who loves the light and easy driving experience of a Miata, is the 914 experience in any way comparable?

And if I was to get a roller, bearing in mind that I'm not bothered about trying to build a historically accurate all Porsche car, what would be a fun and cheap engine swap?
I currently drive a 2015 GTI (I like the power, I don't like the FWD, I had a manual one and it made me sad, now I have one with the DSG and I ignore the gearbox mostly)

I did some back of the envelope calculations and just ~151bhp (assuming an engine that's no heavier than the original) would give me basically the same power to weight as the GTI. I wouldn't say no to more, but I want to keep this cheap and I really want to retain as much storage space as possible. Which basically means any modern engine of at least 1L can be made to produce enough power for me to be happy (1L and a turbo, to be fair)
I'm very much a believer in 'slow car fast is more fun than fast car slow'.

HOWEVER!

I've spent the last couple of days reading V8 build threads, and the mix of bargain basement prices for an LS, no greater complexity of adapting everything and its a v8...
So another question!
V8 owners, has the added weight of the engine made a meaningful difference to the handling?
(Looking online, the heaviest LS is only about 200lbs more than a type 4?)
Is anyone running a "914-6.0" badge? (And if not, why not!?)
And can you make the exhaust sound as dirty and downright criminal as the F type? (seriously, they sound like they shouldn't be allowed near schools).



Oh, and some more about my skills, I design and build robots and 3D printers and other complicated machines for a living. So CAD skills, CNC, 3D printing, and even some basic carpentry. And I have some decent experience sending the more difficult stuff out for contract work.
My machinist skills are a little rusty and I don't have the access I used to for lathes or a mill sadly.

So, for an experienced engineer, keen car guy (but not an experienced car builder) what is a good idea? (and don't say pay someone else to do it for me!)

Subaru EZ engine seems a good option. Cheap engine and gearbox.
Has anyone built anything watercooled and put the radiator anywhere other than the frunk?

VAG group i4, I could have the same engine that's in the GTI! But to be honest, I want a more exciting engine noise, i4's always sound very boring.

I was briefly excited (not like that) about a 3 cylinder ford ecoboost... but then I did some reading and now I'm less excited, sounds like reliablity issues are a thing. But still, rev happy little 3 pot making fun noises?

If I was bonkers I'd get an Alfa V6, but I'd have to import the darn engine and getting any parts would be a nightmare (but it would also sound amazing).

Oh and I'll have to install heated seats and AC or my wife will be unhappy. Also she'll drive it, so it needs to work and not be a deathtrap.


Because the numbers interested me, I'm including them below:
These are based on online numbers, so a rough guide at best.

Power to weight of Mk7/7.5 GTI

1364 kg (kerb weight)

220 hp. (GTI with power pack option)

Or 161 bhp/ton.

914 options:

Car weight. 940kg.

Stock Subaru 2.5 flat 4. 175bhp. (roughly the same weight as the type IV).

Or 186bhp/ton.

Subaru EZ30D with Turbo. ~340bhp
(yes, the EZ30 is a touch heavier, maybe 50kg, but I'm ignoring that)

Or 361bhp/ton

LS 6.0. (Ok, it could have anything from ~350 to 1000hp, but I want to start with bone stock for cost reasons). I'll include the 100kg of extra weight, assuming I won't spend the extra to get the aluminium block:

So, ~350bhp/ton.


All of which means that basically any engine that isn't from a lawnmower will push a 914 much much faster than the big fat lardy mk7 golf... with its airbags and stuff.
I have to imagine the high power engine options can be mildly terrifying.


I have no plans to autocross the car (not seriously at least), this is for relaxing (but spirited!) drives through Sonoma and Napa and other back roads in northern CA. If its reliable I'll also use it for commutes when I can and even long distance road trips (I miss putting the roof down in the mountains!)
Having enough room for a scuba tank or two would be very nice (but might need to be in the passenger seat).

So yeah, any thoughts?

Its been a few decades since I drove a Miata or owned a running 914. But my recollection is that the 914 is much more on rails. Zippier and flatter feeling than the Miata. The Miata shifted better than any 914, ever. The 914 has more space and is actually a more practical car. Conversion wise, the further you go from stock power, weight, and configuration the more stuff is gonna break. I remember putting a 'heavy duty clutch' in one of mine. Immediately broke the clutch cable. Put in a heady duty clutch cable. Broke the clutch pedal. Fixed the clutch pedal, pulled the clutch tube out of the fire wall. Etc, etc. So you have to really think how far you want to go in terms of the whole car and think about all the implications of what you do.

I think you should drive each

But the more power you add the more you have to fabricate and spend on parts. Ex: 914 trannys can work a while in a v8. But really are not strong enough. Same with all the other parts.

Find a good (already built) 914/Suby conversion - done.

"As someone who loves the light and easy driving experience of a Miata, is the 914 experience in any way comparable?"

If this is your primary criteria, a stock 73-74 2.0L is hard to beat. Light, nimble and balanced.

Talk about all those heavy engines and the work involved to get there and those can dramatically affect weight and balance.

There’s one on BaT now. No affiliation

The 914 is a light car with low center of gravity as you already know. Anything else than a flat engine will bring the CG higher with all of the impact it has. On the water cooled options, don't forget that engine weight is one thing, but the rest of the cooling system needs to be taken into account too (weight, space, custom fab which can be difficult to achieve nicely).

Before going all out in heavy modifications, I would get a driving 914, ideally with a 2 liter engine, good brakes, good suspension, sway bars, and discover how fun they are! Chances are, you will drive it and improve it with small weekend rewarding projects allowing you to get to know it more and more.

In parallel, you could also elect to build yourself a nice type 4 engine with more power, 140-150hp range, then swap it over a weekend.

Like I said, the building is an end to itself.

Plus that BaT car is already above my budget.

The orange 1.7 is more my price range... assuming it doesn't jump past 10k (which it might). But 75bhp is.... not going to pull the skin off a rice pudding, as my mother would say.
And frankly building even a mildly fast Porsche motor is going to explode my budget.

I did an LS swap. I believe I did it the right way, too: Boxster 6-speed, chassis stiffening, upgraded brakes, flared, serious tires, etc., etc. It's wicked quick and it handles really well. Even Randy Pobst thought so after he auto-crossed it.
The swap certainly changes the way the car feels re: a stock 914 but it's in no way "bad" or "ruined". IMO, those comments come from folks who haven't actually driven one or experienced a poorly build/set up conversion.
That said, I wouldn't build a V8 914 again - the Ferrari swap aside. You can't safely use the last 200 hp on the street.
I agree with others: drive a nice 2.0 and be sure you really want something more. If you do want more?
Subby swaps are great. That's why there are so many of them. I happen to like stuff that's different so I'd look at the Honda 3.2 V6 or K20/24. Light, plentiful, cheap(ish), can work with the stock transmission.
Audi offers a couple cool options. 2.7 TT or the 1.8T. Benefit there is you can use the Audi transmission so no adapters or custom drive train parts. Maybe axles but that's easy.
Or, my vote: get over your concerns and do the Busso V6 swap! Just today, I was talking with a buddy about repowering my LS build with one.
Anyway, there's my $0.02.

Let's recap here:

High powered rust free solid 914 with AC for less than $10k?

Interesting challenge...

Someone suggested a Cosworth DFV... I pointed out that if one came up for sale it would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of my price range. It would be epic though.

Your comment about the power not actually being usable is the information I really want though.
The GTI only has 161bhp/ton and is fast enough that I could stuff it into a tree if I tried hard enough.

I'm now going to think long and hard about the Alfa V6 now. Its an epic engine and not very expensive (ignoring the challenge of importing an engine). It would give me a wierd and challenging project (which is a big plus) be truly unique while also making usable amounts of power.

Hmmm.

I seem to remember a guy on TV saying that every serious car lover should own an Alfa at some point.

914's are known for their handling having a mid engine and near 50/50 balance. Try to swap an engine that is about the same weight as the type 4. The 914 is a sports car, not a dragster.

Finding a “nice driver” is a task in itself. Rust is a killer of these cars…..not sure on your total budget, but my vote is find a “good car” drive it, enjoy it, see what a 914 really is for yourself. Fix its issues, because they all have some, go from there.
And…..

There is a Subi 2.2 with the rad in the engine bay. You could likely get it to work with the 2.5, they don't need much for cooling. 175hp is a fun car.

Back-to-back you will notice the weight of a V8. Also if you do big hp you have to upgrade everything including wider tires. I think it's hard to drive fast in corners because a little throttle goes a long way.

I have a 190hp stock V6. Best of everything that matters. Though I must add that I am 'upgrading' to 290hp

The Subi 3.0 feels like a Porsche -6 and a little more power doesn't hurt. Easier to get the rear loose.

Nothing wrong with a straight 4 like the Audi/VW. Boxster trans is a nice fit with cable shift. The turbo makes tuning critical but easy to bump power if you get bored.
The Audi V6 is huge and doesn't fit well.

I'm going to take the 5th on this one. Anything I say would just be repeating myself.

And then fresh tires, rebuilding the brakes, fuel system, shocks, springs, etc.
Big challenge.

I’m going to post a comment from another thread here because it so elegantly sums up what a 914 is all about.



@shivers

I’ve owned a 91’ Miata as well as the 914. The 914 handling surpasses the Miata by far. Nothing I’ve ever driven surpasses the smooth seamless shifting of a Miata.

Both are the same with respect to the need to know how to drive, and to carry momentum through the corners. If you can do that, you don’t need more horsepower and can put higher horsepower cars to shame. Neither is intended to be a high horsepower sports car nor did they need it when the weight was kept to 2000 lbs or less.

Why wreck that?

I keep trying to reinforce the fact that EV’s like the AWD Tesla p100d have fundamentally changed the game with respect to 0-60, stop light drags. The simple fact is that regardless of how much horsepower you transplant into a 914, and how badly you degrade the handling, you’re going to get your handed to you by an AWD EV. You simply can’t put enough tire and AWD under a 914 to ground the horsepower and the EV wins - it’s that simple.

Again ask yourself why you think you need more than 100-150 HP and what you’re really hoping to achieve by wrecking a 914 with an engine swap.

I've had my 914-6 conversion for a long time. For awhile when it was a 2.7L, I had a 99 miata at my disposal. It was a fun reliable car, but I liked my german mid engine car much better. It was much more connected to the road, however the miata was stock and the 914 had some suspension mods. 2.7L was tired so it was just a bit faster than the miata as I recall.

914 is obviously now an older german car, so condition is key. Many have rust and other issues. However they are built very well and they are very modern for a car from the 70's. My current sorted six conversion is a blast and very reliable. I would probably consider finding a clean roller for your project or perhaps a rough conversion that you can pull different things apart and make it better.


Also you might be interested in building an exomotive exocet. It's miata based, but you can get them smog exempt in cali. I personally had one. You can put what ever motor you want in it. Pros- super ridged and new chassis, no worries on rust. Super easy and fun to build. moderately faster than a miata since you drop like 500lbs. Cons- can't lock it up, race version is a little tough on entry with no doors. No heat or AC, minimal wind protection (I wore a helmet, like driving a bike with 4 wheels really). Wife may not love this option... but wanted to let you know about it, mostly because they are really fun to build.

Did a mountain drive with some newer porsche 911's and a well sorted 2.0 914 in the pack, he was driving just as fast as we were! @flat4guy

First....

Second....the easy answer is buy another Miata! You already know that you like Miatas. You can get a nice used one with decent paint for under $10K. Likely, most of the systems are going to be in much better shape than a car 20-35 years older. More than likely you won't have to deal with any rust issues.

With a Miata, you can likely buy a decent driver within your budget, and spend a few thousand more on things like reupholstering your seats, maybe a little suspension refresh, a little engine and clutch refresh, and maybe adding some new tires and rims of your liking and your back in the ballgame.

With a 914, you're probably going to have to put out at least $15-20 nowadays if you want anything that runs decent AND has good paint. You might get a decent roller for 3.5-6K, but then you're probably gonna need some bodywork(possibly alot if you don't pick up on hidden rust issues), paint, engine plus accessories depending on which way you go, transaxle, likely an entire interior redo, at least shocks and springs, probably a full brake solution, all new seals, bumper changes/enhancements(like re-painting or re-chroming, buying new rubber bumper tops, etc), new tires/wheels, possible steering upgrades/changes(turbo tie rods, new puck, new rack), misc. wiring issues, likely fuel system & tank additions/refurbishment, front sway bar(possibly rear as well), misc issues with doors(new stays, handles?, door cams, window issues, interior door panels), stereo system if you're that guy, probably some sort of dashboard refurbishment/new, likely new targa pad and seals.....the list goes on. I'd be shocked when it was all said and done if you didn't sink $20-25 in the project at a minimum....just food for thought.

Look for a 73 2.0L and rebuild the engine to a 2056. 120-130hp and you will be happy. Spend the money saved on some suspension mods.

So many options available with this platform that picking the one that’s gonna work best for you will take some deep introspection and soul searching...

All great advice here, nothing really that hasn’t said before (even with Kent taking the 5th) but I can only offer these personal perspectives outside of stock 914’s - having driven a 150 hp T4, (built by Ed and Chris) and having been a passenger in Grey Matter (2.2t Suby).

GM was wicked fast. Having a couple in me, I declined Tom’s offer to drive it, but didn’t need to to get the point. Felt like an entirely different car than a 914.

The T4 was delightful. Plenty of power, well balanced, and air cooled.

Try to park yer arse in as many different ones as possible whilst searching for the holy grail of advice, buying the best one you can afford.

Good luck

Always nice to see a new member looking for the 914 experience. I love 914's and am on my 4th and likely last one.

Having your stated goals in mind, my 1st choice would be a nice clean as you can find chassis. Rust and prior damage are the most costly, troublesome things to deal with. Once you have a solid chassis, I would build a nice 2056 engine with a mild cam, factory FI, an external oil cooler and a good exhaust. Add to that modest suspension and fresh brakes and tires and you are good to go.

The more you deviate from stock, the more problematic they may become.

Buy another Maita for your daily.

Build the 914 as a hobby and weekend toy.

Ok, so if I did fall and smack my head on something... what transmission would be a reasonable match for a busso? I'm going to assume anything I pick will need at least an adapter plate, but that's something I can make or have made. Shift linkage might be a bit more challenging, but I'm a mechanical design engineer and have made much more complicated things before.
Are the Audi options a better fit for aligning axles and such than a Subi?



[looks back at my post to see where I said I wanted to build a drag car to try and race Teslas...]

Um... ok.

Anyway, moving on.

Like I said, I want something fun to drive in northern CA wine country... I need space to fit a case of wine and my wife. If I need more than that I'll take the GTI.

And to other peoples point (please read my post, if I wanted another Miata I'd buy a damn Miata) building the thing is a major part of the attraction. Just doing an Type 4 build to 2056 isn't cheap. Looking through old threads its was an easy $5k 10 years ago. It's only gotten more expensive since then.

I might be an engineer, but I'm a contrarian one, so the idea of a noisy Italian engine in a tiny German car appeals to me a lot more than just having a nice clean 914.

If I really was insane I'd be trying to find a crashed RX8... But I'm not that insane.
[goes to ebay to look for RX8 motors].
Damnit.

Lots of owners in your area. Attend a breakfast or gathering. Look at some cars. Bum a ride along. Ask questions. But not ‘how much do you have into your car’. Happy shopping.

Options:
- Find a complete Alfa 164S and use the engine and trans. It'd be transverse but you'd have a slam-dunk, one-and-done drive train with no adaptors, one-off flywheel, etc. I'd assume custom axles would be required.

-the big Busso (3 liter, 24-valve) isn't too torque-y. Like 200 lb/ft so not a huge risk for a stock 901. Plus then it's longitudinally mounted, which certainly looks better, IMO. A bit more work, but that's half (or more) of the fun!

So enough talk. Make a decision and get started!

There lies the problem, your an engineer!!!!

I went that route. Then I bought a motor and began looking for a car to put it into. That way I have always had a 914 to drive while I worked on the other 914.
The motor and front suspension came out of a wrecked 1985 911 Carrera. Nowadays that combination can be very pricey. The thing is, the car is great to drive. It is a joy to drive. There is something magic about having a horsepower for every ten pounds of car. Weight change is marginal and it stays low. The other options bring with them cooling water.

Transverse won't fit between the stock rear susp. Then there is cutting up the trunk and losing the top storage. Otherwise I'd have a nice cable shifted 6 speed with lsd.

I suggest staying away from the 24valve Alfa V6 engine. They have a tendency to slip timing and destroy the valves, plus parts are becoming unobtanium for them. The 12valve Alfa V6 is a much simpler and reliable engine. I have owned two Alfa 164S’ and they were great cars. They sound amazing and you don’t need a lot of special tools to do a timing belt change, unlike the 24valve engines. Both cars had over 200,000 miles on them and the heads had never been off. They just need the timing belt, water pump, and idler bearing replaced every 60,000 miles to remain happy and reliable, which is rare for an Italian engine.

You've got a bunch of serious folks close to you.
Make friends and spend time with them and their cars.
I'd kill to be able to visit Tygaboy. He has the best LS based 914 on the planet IMO.
He's currently working on EXACTLY the car of your dreams. Tiny German sports car with a COMPLETE Italian drive train.

The most common advice is to buy a 73-74 2.0 in decent shape.

This is "THE WAY" IMO.

You have to stay pre-75 if you want to mod. 73 and up had a far superior transmission shifting linkage.

For a well sorted runner that could be immediately used for wine runs I believe you will be in the 20K+ range.

Sadly this car is not close to you now, it's a bit older (but has the side shift transmission already swapped over). I don't know the seller and am not giving a reference for it but if I were in your shoes this is what I'd be hunting...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=367714

It already has a motor that has 150+ hp potential, it's been swapped to side shift, it's had pans put in it already. Bunch of new brake parts from a superior vendor.

That one would be worth a look in my book...

Buy a 944 instead. Leave the 914 for someone who has a bigger budget

944 Turbo,, LS Swap is your Dream. big brakes .strong Diff..

So many ways to succeed in your quest!

If it has to be a P-car for the family drives etc I would say look for a clean 944 or even a clean early Boxster. Sure they are heavier but an early Boxster with as few options as possible and a manual gearbox is still alot of fun and the noise is hard to beat. None of them are going to be as "care free" in ownership or cheap parts as compared to a Miata. There will be issues to solve and space for upgrades over time.

The more boring solution is to get a 2008-2011 NC Miata.









or....if you are really dumb build a Super seven like I did.

As a person who is neck deep in an EZ30R swap, it’s been a lot of enjoyable work, made more difficult by while-I’m-in-there restoration work. But I think it’s going to be amazing when it’s running and sorted and the flat six Subaru looks surprisingly natural in the engine bay.

My only advice runs contrary to what many have suggested here: if you’re determined to do an engine swap, maybe avoid a 73-74 2.0. I believe these cars should be restored to close to factory spec. Enjoy the journey!

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I didn't notice you're in San Francisco. Consider yourself invited to the Red Barn. We can go for a spin (!) in the LS car and poke around the 914 Ferrari build. If nothing else, you'll have more detail and get a look at a couple swaps.
PM me if you're interested.

Ouch.



Blurgh. Ugliest Miata ever. I will never own an NC.

And If I had enough space for three or four project cars I would probably build a Seven, I'd have to find a silly engine choice though. Which for a 7 is a tough thing, those have been built with just about every engine combo possible.
I've wanted to build a kit car for as long as I can remember. Sadly its quite a challenge in CA, for many reasons.



I'll shoot you a PM.

Just to clarify I think your issue is more with space on building a kit car? California ironically is one of the easiest states to get a kit car on the road with the SB100 rule. When I built my Exocet I was talking to guys across the nation and many of the other states were turning down kit cars.

Why not a Factory Five Racing 818?
It is based on Subaru Impreza/WRX running gear, but someone with your skills could use other motors, add AC etc.

https://www.factoryfive.com/818/

Late to this party, but why would you ruin a perfectly good anything?

maybe find one that's already half trashed

ok

you asked the question!

do not ruin a perfectly good 914.[b]

go f$ck up some inferior design and improve that?

914s if good''''''''''''' deserve to be unruined.

i mean..............?
spoken and authorized by f wit from northern antarctica........
as good old sam kekovich says,....."you know it makes sense".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtWVJikNnx4

You could always keep it all Porsche.....

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Just buy a roller that's "pre-cut"/"pre-ruined". All the fun with half the guilt.

Click to view attachment

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Not mine, but for sale in TN on Facebook Marketplace.

Take @ty.gaboy. up on his offer to swing by the barn!

Well this is special. All that and left the wart holes. If only he had filled the wart holes.

The Factory Five 818 Sports Car is the newest and most affordable Factory Five model.
Note: The 818 is not currently in production, and we are not taking more orders at this time.
Click here to watch a Facebook live update with more info on the 818 and other projects we're working on.
Stay tuned for more updates on the 818.
Based on tough Subaru Impreza/WRX running gear, the 818 is an ultra-light, ultra-modern, computer-designed, two-seater, mid-engine sports car priced under 10 grand! Engineered to be built, the 818 is all about doing more for less.

NOT IN PRODUCTION but it looks cool

Bob B

Well.

That silver car is a hard no from me.

A fun project is one thing, trying to undo that horrible mess doesn't sound fun to me...

But I'm mostly decided (seeing the Ferrari 914 helped).
I've started reaching out to see if I can get a 3.2 Busso (yes, I know, timing, eats valves, not actually available in the US etc etc).

I'm also looking about for the right car, not going to rush that.

But reading the recent guide to 5 lug conversions, I have more questions,
(not about how, its a good guide) about the CV joints and transmission.

The stock 901 transmission was apparently rated by Porsche at (only) ~150 torques, so do I start with a 901, which will be the quick and simple option? And then after I get all excited and tear off the first gear when I start drag racing Prius's (Pri'ii? Priodes?) save up my pennies and get a subaru or audi 'box?

But the guide also mentioned that the stock CV joints are not recommended above ~150 bhp. How accurate is that? The 3.2 busso is ~240bhp, I don't really want to find out when the CV joints explode.