saw this on the local news today....

question is...how flexible is our engines and carbs for alternative fuels?

i was thinking not flexible at all, but i was just asking...

Carbs can be adjusted easily enough. The main question is how the rubber seals will react to the ethanol, and if it will cause any increase in corrosion with the particular alloys used in the engine.

so basically its a trial and error thing??

I could be a guinea pig....

its only 2.09 vs. like 2.4x

i think it's good because for one the money is going back to the US.

I wonder about milage, if I remember right, Ethanaol has a lower btu value, so that means less power. Also remember reading somewhere that ethanaol will break any crap that's in your fuel system lose, so stock up on fuel filters. Or maybe invest in fuel filter stock, lol.

Don

Eats up the exhaust.....unless it's completely stainless steel.

so just stainless exhaust...that's it

what about stainless exhaust valves?

i'm curious...

right now, my whole exhaust is like rusted....tried sanding down and hitting it with ceramic paint, just burned off...

watch out for the corn kernels in your fuel filter

Plus it has a nasty aftertaste...

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 18 2005, 11:12 PM)

so basically its a trial and error thing?? I could be a guinea pig.... its only 2.09 vs. like 2.4x i think it's good because for one the money is going back to the US.

You already are a guinea pig. You commit blatant acts of science fiction, most days.



M

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Aug 18 2005, 11:22 PM)

Plus it has a nasty aftertaste...

drinking it is not a good idea....

miles drank it and look at him now....

QUOTE (DonTraver @ Aug 18 2005, 07:44 PM)

I wonder about milage, if I remember right, Ethanaol has a lower btu value, so that means less power.

I saw an article in one of the auto rags I read that suggested the opposite. The ethanol burns more completely. The article also said that it had sort of a catalyst effect on the petro fuel part making it burn more completely as well. Maybe the efficiency of the burn makes up for the lower BTU? In any case it is locally produced and renewable - gotta love it. If it is available find a way to make it work.

it's a bit far--but i'd make the trip to try it out

i think i'm going to do like 1/2 1/2 and see what happens

i figure if the exhust goes...i get a new one..

if that happens, i'll go with a muffler...

like a mittlemotor one.

The use it in Brazil....out of sugar cane and beets. The entrained water rusts the exhaust.

Yes, it's a "renewable" resource but it's more expensive than oil and is subsidized by the government.

IIRC - Saab just released a car that runs on both gas and ethanol. Because of its programming and (I hope this is correct) ethanols ability to compress more than non-race octane gas, this car produces more power with the ethanol. It made since to me when you think about all of the alcohol drag cars out there. Ethanol is basically gas with an alcohol component. But, in Saab's case the car was turboed and a normal engine might not be able to pump enough air in to utilize the amount of ethanol (air is usually the limiting reactant in any combustion sequence). I have no idea about gas mileage, I was more interested in the Saabs 180hp with ethanol, and like 150 without.

Ok. I was right. Typically ethanol fuel is of a higher octane so it resists pre detination better than conventional gas. Because of this the compression of a car running on ethanol can be increased, or the boost can be cranked up (as Saab did)

Here's part of an article explaning that.
Saab's New 9.5

QUOTE (SEEMORE BUTZ @ Aug 19 2005, 07:00 AM)

The use it in Brazil....out of sugar cane and beets. The entrained water rusts the exhaust. Yes, it's a "renewable" resource but it's more expensive than oil and is subsidized by the government.

i dunno about brazil

but here the ethanol is 2.10/gal
and 87 is 2.53/gal

IT IS GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZED EVERYWHERE. Including here (mostly up north), europe and south america.

if oil is cheaper, then why would the price be lower?

but on the inverse, it's supply/demand...

its gonna get lower....

Dood, you're in KY...it's just bourbon that didn't pass the taste test.

yup....

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 19 2005, 05:12 AM)

QUOTE (SEEMORE BUTZ @ Aug 19 2005, 07:00 AM) The use it in Brazil....out of sugar cane and beets.  The entrained water rusts the exhaust.   Yes, it's a "renewable" resource but it's more expensive than oil and is subsidized by the government. i dunno about brazil but here the ethanol is 2.10/gal and 87 is 2.53/gal

You missed the point. It costs more to produce, and it's subsidized all the way from the farmer to the refinery, keeping YOUR pump price down and dumping the difference on the rest of us. The Cap'n

I had my 914 over to Brad Mayeur's (914 Limited) and when we looked at the fuel filter in the engine compartment we found that the fuel in it was boiling (clear filter). He asked me what fuel I was using and I told him it was from Mobile. He then asked if it had ethanol in it. I told him that I thought it did (and it does). Brad told me that ethanol lowers the boiling point of the fuel and that I shouldn't use it if possible. We also rerouted the fuel line...

QUOTE (SEEMORE BUTZ @ Aug 19 2005, 05:00 AM)

The use it in Brazil....out of sugar cane and beets. The entrained water rusts the exhaust. Yes, it's a "renewable" resource but it's more expensive than oil and is subsidized by the government.

Nah. In Kentuckee it is just confiscated moonshine.

Andrew

Does anybody have an idea what the price per barrel of oil would have to reach to make ethanol/gasohol a viable alternative without subsidies?

I'm too lazy to search.

Andrew

only in kinfucky

got ya....

well i dont want to give you all one more reason to hate me so I won't get any....

QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Aug 19 2005, 06:12 AM)

You missed the point.  It costs more to produce, and it's subsidized all the way from the farmer to the refinery, keeping YOUR pump price down and dumping the difference on the rest of us.  The Cap'n

Since we're paying for it anyways, why not get some of the benifit from it?

Just to reinforce what hs already been posted,
Ethanol (and methanol) give off less BTUs by volume during combustion, so it provides less power per gallon.
It also burns much leaner than gas, the ideal A/F ratio for ethanol is somewhere in the 8 to one range for maximum power.
The only real benefits to burning alcohol is that it burns very cool and you can get away with 15 to one compression ratio or higher.

If everything else stays the same, you should expect lower performance and worse fuel economy from switching to that mixture. If it were me I'd avoid it like the plague.

OH yeah I forgot....it also melts underground gas tanks unless specially designed beforehand to hold alcohol based fuels of more than 10%.

It leeches moisture, from the air. Sludge, and fouled fuel delivery, here you come...

Lower BTU, higher volume to reach unity, with petrol.


M

Geez guys. Some of you sound like the doom and gloom folks who said our engines would die instantly without lead in it. Do a google search on 'ethanol automotive fuel' - some good reading there. Here is one link that deals with many of the fears expressed above.

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/factfic_enperf.html

Granted you have to keep in mind the source of that article has some self interest. As much as I support alternative fuel programs I'm not sure I would put e85 into an old porsche (old anything for that matter). It is hidden in that article under phrases like 'most modern ...' In particular I would doubt that the rubber in our fuel system would survive e85. Maybe e10 but I don't know if I would risk e85.

You guys in socal in particular are choking on smog. This stuff could really help that situation. If you can spend all that energy on restoring a 35 year old rust magnet you can certainly find a way to make ethanol work in your cars.

'scuse me. I'll go back to hugging my tree now.

QUOTE (swl @ Aug 19 2005, 12:40 PM)

You guys in socal in particular are choking on smog. This stuff could really help that situation. If you can spend all that energy on restoring a 35 year old rust magnet you can certainly find a way to make ethanol work in your cars.

Actually, So Cal is a LOT cleaner than it was 15-20 years ago. When I first visited LA in 1987, smog would regularly get so bad you could barely see 10 cars in front of you on the freeway. Today, such days are rare.

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/factfic_enperf.html

Anything that can't support itself in a market, should not exist there. R&D should come as points -on the back-end- not out of your neighbor.


M

we have lots of trees here.

I like pizza.

I wouldn't put E85 in your tank unless your engine is specifically designed to handle it. Ethanol/methanol has a greater percentage of oxygen than gasoline does by a significant factor. You'll need to increase all jet sizes by a factor of 2 to 3 times the current area. In other words, you'll run extremely lean and risk seizing your engine, if you can get it to run at all.

Years ago I experimented with running methanol in an old Suzuki 50cc motorbike. It took a while to get the jetting right; I seized several pistons before I found the right combination. When I did find the combo power increased about 10% but fuel consumption skyrocketed.

My 2 cents... for what it's worth.

If you bought a tank of it here, for a 914, and drove it on occasion, you'd have to drain it in a month.

The humidity would kill it, not to mention the octane drop.


M

I worked at an ethanol plant in KY in the '80's. It was basicly an enormous moonshine still run by the gov't. A few people on the graveyard shift were sampling the product until they put an additive in to make them sick to discourage that. The plant was just a subsidy for the corn farmers IMHO. When the gov't money went away the plant closed.

Actually it dependa who you ask if ethonal is renewable. Department of Agriculture says it is but they don't tae into account the energy it takes to harvest the corn that ethonal is produced from. Department of energy points out the when you factor in the energy it takes to grow the corn you only get back 80% of the energy you put in its not such a great deal. The EPA will olso not those natural gas fired water pumps that aren't efficient enough to make this worth while are draining aquifers so fast to keep the corn alive that they are being dimished. Basically ethonal exists because it keeps farmers happy in early primary states. Oh and yes I have lived in DC to long.

Nick

You guys are getting all werkd up over nothing. Anyone in the know, knows this horseless carriage contraption won't last. Nothing will ever beat the efficiancy of the coal powerd locomotive, plus there's MORE than enough coal to go around. You damn kids and you're pipe dreams

i could just make a steam engine to power my 914...

external combustion!