So I got one of the ball joints installed into the strut housing without any issues. Went to do the other one and got the wedge pin tapped almost flush and then went to tighten the nut and got to 20 foot pounds (spec is 33) before the wedge pin started pulling through. WTF?!
Is it safe to leave it like this? This is a wedge pin from Porsche.
Click to view attachment

Is the nut bottoming out on the pin. I would do some measurements before I ran it, as is.
Are you sure about the torque spec. I remember something around 18.

Watch out! The Haynes manual has a typo in the torque specs for this bolt. I think it says 40 ft/lbs but it’s more like 18. You can test this out, if you’d like. The nut will strip the threads on the bolt at about 30-35 ft/lbs. At which point the bolt won’t come out or tighten, forcing you to use a nut buster to remove it with a lot of cursing. Ask me how I know!

I was able to tighten the other strut to 33 foot lbs without any issues. Maybe I just got lucky though. 33 is what the Haynes book says and what I read on other threads here in my search.
That said, I found a post on Pelican saying that the 33 spec was for the earlier bolt style and the late style is 16 ft lbs, and that Haynes never updated the book. Fuch!



@mepstein I can’t see the threads without loosening the nut, which I’m kind of afraid to do at this point. If I back off the nut, I worry that I run the risk of the wedge pin being loose going forward. Maybe the ball joint is compromised now, too?

I checked the diameter of the hole that the pin goes through and it’s now wider than the top of my old wedge pins, so I’ve clearly altered the strut.

I see 3 choices at the moment:
- Leave it as is
- Loosen the nut, pound the pin back out which will likely be very easy to do, and try to tighten to 16 (I’m worried the pin will loose given the hole sequenced now)
- Get a new strut.

Is JB Weld an option here?

From a thread at the bird board "(16 ft-lbs according to Bentley's) "

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...edge-bolts.html

The pin is compromised, nothing else.

I'd replace BOTH pins (and nuts!), torque to 16 and use blue loctite on the threaded portion only.

NO WAY I'd run the over torqued pins!

A failure at this point could cost the entire car and you!!!!!!

Loose a pin at 100mph and you won't be able to tell what brand the "ball of metal" is in the junkyard...

I hear you, but..
If I use blue locktight then I have to reduce the torque by 20%.
The wedge pin above is only torqued to 20 ft lbs. I couldn't get to 33 because that's the point where I noticed the pin pulling through. I measured against the old pin and verified that the threads didn't bottom out. Do you still think that's enough to compromise the pin? Given that the correct spec is seemingly only in one thread on the bird site, others must have used 33 ' lbs successfully (was ok on my other strut.)

Isn't the strut toast now because the hole has been widened?

I must have read 10 different install threads prepping for this. How has the error in the manual not been pointed out here before?! I'm so F'ing pissed off right now.

The possibility of the resultant ball of metal (leaking blood!) would make me automatically replace exactly what I suggested.

If you were working for me and you did this, we'd have words, but it wouldn't count against you the first time.

Do the same thing twice and you'd be TOAST!

The ONLY thing that is important is the rubber stays against the road and the brakes work...

It is a luxury if it starts and moves under its own power.

It just means you don't have to push it around the shop!

16lbs and blue loctite will work fine!

Don't overthink this!

Don't EVER fully trust ANY service manual. Shit like you did here could kill you (or your customer if you're doing this crap for a living).

33lbs is a 10mm bolt IMO!

33lbs is a bunch for smaller stuff.

I would have researched and posted BIGTIME before I took something that small that high in that critical a location.

I disagreed with your method of ball joint to strut and then ball joint to control arm.

I do it opposite, the old school way.

I wasn't completely sure if it mattered AND your method MIGHT be better as the ball joint tightening procedure may be easier if it's all assembled.
You would eliminate the "floppy" using your method.

It might be a "better" way, so I was just watching how it went and what others posted.

So, I'm OK with alternate mounting procedures.

I'm just not OK when I see something that might hurt you down the road...

I went that route for a few reasons: I wasn't sure how much hammering I'd have to do to get the wedge pin seated and didn't want that force transferred to the bolts that secure control arms to the chassis and the new ball joint. The Koni instructions say to add antifreeze to the strut housing and given that the later strut housings aren't sealed (there's a hole at the bottom) trying to pour antifreeze while it's mounted to the control arm sounded like a recipe for disaster. Lastly, the strut gland nut would be easier to tighten on the bench.


OK, I just ordered new wedge pins and nuts. I just hope the strut isn't compromised such that the wedge pin doesn't pull through even when using the correct torque value. There must be a bunch of other people with over-torqued wedge pins since 33 ft lbs is stated in several threads on this site and in the Hayes manual.

@iankarr you might want to add the torque spec to video.

I'll post an update when the pins arrive and a give it another go. Should the wedgepin be greased? Other threads I read said to grease it before install, but I'm inclined to install them dry the 2nd time around to give a tighter fit given the circumstances.

By design the wedge pin cannot pull through though it can sit under flush to the strut body as your picture shows.

This makes me feel better. Thanks!

correct ball joint ? v notch versus radius groove..

Yes, the ball joints have the v notch.

Pelican:


"It is very important to grease the bore of the strut for the ball joint and the bore for the wedge-pin. All this needs liberal amount of grease to prevent corrosion.

Remember, the washer under the wedge-pin nut is a hardened Porsche part, not a plain M8 washer. The nut is a steel lock-nut "

Do not attempt to draw the wedge pin in with the nut. Disaster to follow. Clean and lube hole, drive pin home, tighten nut with your torque wrench. The wedge pin breaks easily.

Yup, all the posts I've read (many) have covered that and that's exactly what I did. The problem was the incorrect torque value posted in numerous places.

I don't plan on using grease on the pin next time because only 20' pounds pulled it in too far. I'm less concerned about getting them out again as I am about getting them seated properly and allowing them to do their job.
I'll use grease on the ball joint end to keep it from adhering to the pin and the strut though.

Koni is most likely having you fill the strut housing to increase heat transfer from the insert to the housing.
I've done this multiple times with Z cars, but I used the original hydraulic oil that was already in the strut. I'd carefully drain that crap into a container for re-use.
I called it "Japanese fish oil strut juice" because that is the way it smelled.

I WOULD NOT put anything into an outer strut housing that was not fully sealed!

I cannot say I've seen an outer housing that wasn't sealed at the bottom.
I will be looking at mine closely when I put inserts in per your comments.

I am a HUGE believer in having the heat transfer fluid between the insert and the housing.

But, if it can drain out, it will.

Make a mess of your freshly painted suspension pieces...

One final note regarding antifreeze. It has very little surface tension and can flow through cracks that nothing else will.

Have an old, cracked coffee mug that works fine for coffee, it probably won't hold antifreeze.
Antifreeze is an excellent test fluid for crack detection because of this feature.

It will leak out of the strut housing easier than almost everything else.

Are you sure that the hole in the strut housing which accepts the pin isn't oval-ed out or oversized for some reason?

@technicalninja The struts I removed were aftermarket (KYB) and there was oil in the strut housing and they did not leak. Clearly the wedge pin and ball joint end was sealing it all up. Maybe I should use a lightweight oil or ATF instead of antifreeze?

I’m not sure, but it doesn’t look like it, and the old pin was in there tight.

It would be good to know how to tell when the pin is in far enough before tightening the nut. I’ve read ‘until it’s flush’ and ‘until it’s almost flush’. Apparently aftermarket pins are hit or miss, but the pins from Porsche I’m using look exactly like the ones I took out.

Maybe someone had replaced the strut with the older thru hole style at some point?

There would be an opening/slit in the strut end if it was a clamp style. Impossible to insert a pin into the early style.

The struts are sealed then.
I'd use oil/ATF as the heat transfer fluid.

A trick I use to "tell" if a wedge pin is bottomed.

Hold torque against the nut (not more than final torque) and smack the pin with a drift/hammer. If it moves AT ALL you will feel the nut move.

This is how I install these pins. I use the nut to "feel" if it's bottomed.

The rear pins on a Z-car hold the pivot bar and if it's not exactly centered it will dent the bar to the point it can never be removed again.

During the wedge pin installation, I "float" the two together making sure the bar is exactly matching the pin angle and I center the rotation of the pin the same way.

I use copious amount of anti-seize during this procedure.

A decade later my install will come out easy. Normally you end up DESTROYING the rear pivot bar and the pins when you do this to a Z.

The 914 stuff will be GRAVY compared the 240Z rear pin bullshit...

Not sure that will work in this application given that the wedge pin went in past the point where it was flush (see first post). In other words, I’m betting that if I keep wacking it hard enough it will keep moving. I’m going to go with ‘whack it until it’s almost flush’ (1-1.5mm?) as recommended on every post on the subject that I have been able to find, and then torque the nut. I purchased the Porsche steel lock nuts (not nylocks) and new hardened washers to stay to OEM spec.

Forgot to add that I appreciate everyone’s input here. Thank you.

So I ordered a supposedly Porsche wedge pin lock nut as I read that the nylock nuts shouldn't be used as a substitute I thought the new one from Porsche be the same as the apparently original style ovalized lock nuts I removed, but that's not the case.

The new one just looks to have some sort of anti-seize material already applied to the threads. I'm thinking about using the old lock nuts because they still seem to have retained their 'locking ability' because they are clearly still ovalized I can't thread them on the wedge pin by hand.
Thoughts?

Click to view attachment

Also does it matter which side of the strut I install the wedge pin on? The holes are the same diameter on either side. The parts diagram pictures I've found suggest that the nut is installed on the side of the strut that faces the front of the car.

You’re totally overthinking this which isn’t bad on a safety component but relax

The direction doesn’t matter - the interference fit occurs between the wedge and the V shaped groove in the ball joint.

The material you see in the new nut is Locktite not anti-seize. If
It were me I’d reuse the old nut with a preference toward a mechanically deformed prevailing torque fastener over Locktite.

In either instance, the locking feature is belt and suspenders to the stretch of the bolt which is actually what keeps things tight. (16-19 lb-ft per standard torque for M8 x 1.25 grade 8.8 black oxide)

+1 for the mechanical class 4 nut.

I'd use blue loctite as well.

But I'm a pin head...

Thanks for the feedback. I’ll use the old nuts and 16 ft lbs.

So this is where I ended up at when tightening the nut to 16 foot lbs. Before putting the new wedge pin in I measured the diameter of the hole from different points and it was clear that it was not perfectly round.
I can't recall what the differences were- they were slight, but similarly out of round on both ends. I put the pin in on the side that had the smaller diameter measurements.
I'm pretty confident it would have pulled a bit further if I had gone any tighter than 16 foot lbs.

Any concerns or should I move on with my life?
Click to view attachment

Splitting hairs:

I would drive the wedge in with a brass drift until it stops moving. Then torque to 16-19 lb-ft. Let the pin fall where it may.

Alternatively. Move on. Recheck torque after driving 10-20 miles.

See my post #25

If you just used the nut, you can retorque and should.

If you also used Loctite you cannot.

I ended up using the new nut from Pelican with the locktight already applied because one of my original locking nuts didn’t have much resistance when I was threading it on.

I’m not going tap the pin in further as I’m afraid that it will damage the ball joint stud because my guess is that the stud helped to keep the pin from being pulled further in when I was tightening the nut.

I used marking paint on the nuts so that I’ll be able to tell if anything moves. Someone before me must have inadvertently widened the hole the pin goes in.


…or I should I just try and find another late strut housing?

I think you’re missing how the design functions.

It is intended to be an interference fit between the wedge bolt compound taper and the ball stud V. You cannot damage the ball stud by having the wedge drive up into it. That is the way it’s intended to fit. When the wedge bolt finally goes to full interference with the ball stud, it effectively locks everything into place.

There is a higher chance of me hitting the lotto than of you needing a new strut. Well maybe that’s an exaggeration but you get the point.

And having said that, don’t freak out and redo anything. Monitor your paint marks as you stated. I’d bet as you’ve assembled and torqued, you’ll be fine. If you hear any noise or perceive any looseness then drift the wedge in further, clean the nut, add blue Loctite, retorque.

The taper shape of the hole self stops the wedge shape of the stud. It will only go in so far and stop on it’s own. Or should. Get a small enough to fit the hole brass drift for driving the stud in. The brass is soft enough not to tear stuff up and still get the job done. Don’t be afraid to wack it pretty hard.