I'm pondering over different options. One of the things I'm hoping to do is "warm up" my engine a little with a slight rebuild since I have to take it apart. Kind of one of those "while you're in there" things.
The first question is... how big can I go and still keep the stock FI with a 2.0L (DJet, I believe)?
Any input is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
c.
Full Version: How big can you go?
do a search for "Demick" and his motor rebuild....
2056 with a cam "just" tad bit more hot than stock....
this is proven and known to work (of course he might have had to tweak his MPS, if you don't have the tools such as an wideband oxygen sensor reader then don't bother with the cam)
For stock FI, a stock rebuild is the way to go for most people...yes, the FI can be tweaked, but if you have to ask how, you shouldn't be doing it
2056 with a cam "just" tad bit more hot than stock....
this is proven and known to work (of course he might have had to tweak his MPS, if you don't have the tools such as an wideband oxygen sensor reader then don't bother with the cam)
For stock FI, a stock rebuild is the way to go for most people...yes, the FI can be tweaked, but if you have to ask how, you shouldn't be doing it
I am seriously considering a 2.1 with a lumpy cam and gonna try the D-Jet for the shits of it.
It was originally fitted with 48 IDFs.
Maybe I'll run lean...maybe I'll run rich...maybe it won't run at all.
It was originally fitted with 48 IDFs.
Maybe I'll run lean...maybe I'll run rich...maybe it won't run at all.
Conventional wisdom says 2056 with a #73 webcam (or Jake has a similar cam that he recommends) is about as far as you can go retaining d-jet. I'm sure there are exceptions, but this is what most people say. There will be some tweaking involved if you do this.
Demick
Demick
Two big differences in the way one can perceive this...
(1) How big can you go with stock FI
(2) How big can you go SAFELY with stock FI..
4-5 years ago when I was really ramping up development for the 914 crowd (what a waste of time that was
) I took a TON of time to play with the stock EFI and get more power. Time and again I simply saw that too many variables are created with the stock EFI and that too many times the engine was having to be tuned and designed AROUND the induction system- far from an optimum way of handling a true development.
My answer to each of these is pretty short and pretty biased due to my lack of positive experience with the stock EFI...
To answer perception #1 - The engine can be made as big as you can afford- If you replace the stock electronics you can either stick with a stock or slightly larger injector and while retaining all the stock runners and plenums still easily get 130-145 HP. After that the stock plenum volume starts to limit things. Keeping this combo of induction not only takes a different ECU (like the ones I have been playing with for the past 5 months solid) but also takes an engine specifically set up for the other constants in the FI system that you probably don't want to change.
You can experiment with combos for this until the day you die and never find the answer- I tried it for several months and finally said to hell with it and went back to my "non guesswork" combo.
For #2.....
I can answer this easily..... Its a 2056 with no more than 8.3:1 CR and the web 73 cam with only slight port work. I generally do no port work with the combo because iit leads to other mods that sometimes add guesswork.
Here is a link to a kit that I made up just for the stock FI with "safe" power
2056 kit
So whats the best thing to do??
well now you gotta understand that this is coming from the man that don't care very much for the stock FI at all..
-remove the stock ECU
- smash it with the biggest hammer you can find
- replace it with an SDS unit or equivelant
- commence to have unrestrained fun.
Hell, I'll pay the shipping if you'll send your brain to me to be destroyed- so far a 12 gauge with 00 Buck Shot has been my weapon of choice for the job
(1) How big can you go with stock FI
(2) How big can you go SAFELY with stock FI..
4-5 years ago when I was really ramping up development for the 914 crowd (what a waste of time that was
) I took a TON of time to play with the stock EFI and get more power. Time and again I simply saw that too many variables are created with the stock EFI and that too many times the engine was having to be tuned and designed AROUND the induction system- far from an optimum way of handling a true development.My answer to each of these is pretty short and pretty biased due to my lack of positive experience with the stock EFI...
To answer perception #1 - The engine can be made as big as you can afford- If you replace the stock electronics you can either stick with a stock or slightly larger injector and while retaining all the stock runners and plenums still easily get 130-145 HP. After that the stock plenum volume starts to limit things. Keeping this combo of induction not only takes a different ECU (like the ones I have been playing with for the past 5 months solid) but also takes an engine specifically set up for the other constants in the FI system that you probably don't want to change.
You can experiment with combos for this until the day you die and never find the answer- I tried it for several months and finally said to hell with it and went back to my "non guesswork" combo.
For #2.....
I can answer this easily..... Its a 2056 with no more than 8.3:1 CR and the web 73 cam with only slight port work. I generally do no port work with the combo because iit leads to other mods that sometimes add guesswork.
Here is a link to a kit that I made up just for the stock FI with "safe" power
2056 kit
So whats the best thing to do??
well now you gotta understand that this is coming from the man that don't care very much for the stock FI at all..
-remove the stock ECU
- smash it with the biggest hammer you can find
- replace it with an SDS unit or equivelant
- commence to have unrestrained fun.
Hell, I'll pay the shipping if you'll send your brain to me to be destroyed- so far a 12 gauge with 00 Buck Shot has been my weapon of choice for the job
That depends on how much R&D you want to do on D-Jet. Ray Greenwood over on the Shop Talk Forums knows quite a bit. I agree with everyone else. 2056 with a bit of cam. BUT, if I were building an engine right now "on the cheap", I'd sell my stock FI and build a carb engine. I love FI and don't much like carbs, but D-Jet is a royal pain in the ass, IMHO. I'd rather build for power and deal with carbs than fight a failing FI and its expensive parts.
| QUOTE |
| I'd sell my stock FI and build a carb engine |
Atta boy...
KT
So... if I'm going to go to a 2056... is it really WORTH it? meaning... for a couple of ponies... is it worth the cost/expense (time and materials) of upgrading the engine?
If I'm not mistaken, this means having to take apart the whole engine and starting from 'scratch.'
Any thoughts?
If I'm not mistaken, this means having to take apart the whole engine and starting from 'scratch.'
Any thoughts?
Its more than just a couple of ponies...And its efficiency (and cooler running temps and better MPG generally)
This is a dyno graph from one of my engines that the 2056 kit was based from. Nevermind the HP difference- Torque is what matters for these smaller engines. That flat torque means instant power at every gear change and an engine that responds much quicker than a stocker. Flat torque rules!
And this is MY version of a stocker... Its a tad better than the bone stock engine, just a slight cam swap and Euro Spec pistons. Its about 8% stronger than a bone stock FI rebuild.
There is your difference..
And yes it does require a full tear down and rebuild- Its not rocket science... With the kit I have had 15 year olds do this with a 119 piece crapsman tool set and just a dial indicator for doing rocker geometry and setting endplay.. This can be easy, or difficult- the choice is yours!
Make it fun and you'll learn something at the same time!
This is a dyno graph from one of my engines that the 2056 kit was based from. Nevermind the HP difference- Torque is what matters for these smaller engines. That flat torque means instant power at every gear change and an engine that responds much quicker than a stocker. Flat torque rules!
And this is MY version of a stocker... Its a tad better than the bone stock engine, just a slight cam swap and Euro Spec pistons. Its about 8% stronger than a bone stock FI rebuild.
There is your difference..
And yes it does require a full tear down and rebuild- Its not rocket science... With the kit I have had 15 year olds do this with a 119 piece crapsman tool set and just a dial indicator for doing rocker geometry and setting endplay.. This can be easy, or difficult- the choice is yours!
Make it fun and you'll learn something at the same time!
115hp and 120lbs of torque really wake up your 914 over a stock motor.
that is one sweet-ass torque curve!!
| QUOTE (Carlitos Way @ Aug 23 2005, 11:26 PM) |
| So... if I'm going to go to a 2056... is it really WORTH it? meaning... for a couple of ponies... is it worth the cost/expense (time and materials) of upgrading the engine? If I'm not mistaken, this means having to take apart the whole engine and starting from 'scratch.' Any thoughts? |
depends on a few things.....
is the motor currently running fine?
if yes......
do you have money to burn?
a rebuild will cost you at a min. $2,000 if you do most all the work yourself...you'll gain 10 to 15hp and have the car undriveable for X amount of time........
you'll have to learn quickly that these are not Hondas, no easy bolt on modifications....a full rebuild (with carbs or aftermarket FI) or motor transplant is the only thing that'll get you a huge boost in power....
Jake , the link does not work.
Is that the RAT WEb 73++FI cam used for the 2056 in the graph?
Is that the RAT WEb 73++FI cam used for the 2056 in the graph?
Hmmn, link works from my end.. anyone else having issues??
The graph I posted has my combo. Its not an off the shelf web 73 I have changed the lobe centers and addded a tad of split duration to the exhaust side.
The cam is known as my 9550. The straight pattern version with only a modified lobe center is the 9010. The 9010 works best for L jet and the 9550 works best for D jet.
The graph I posted has my combo. Its not an off the shelf web 73 I have changed the lobe centers and addded a tad of split duration to the exhaust side.
The cam is known as my 9550. The straight pattern version with only a modified lobe center is the 9010. The 9010 works best for L jet and the 9550 works best for D jet.
| QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Aug 24 2005, 05:52 AM) |
| that is one sweet-ass torque curve!! |
What curve...a sweet torque line maybe, haha.
OK, the link is now corrected... and I actually got a chance to jet on over to the web page. However, even if I'm considering the original FI, that's still a pretty steep price for someone on a budget. So, it seems, the best bet would be to forget the original DJET. And if I'm going to go with a "warmed up" engine, to go all out. Including FI.
So now the question is.. which FI system to go through, and which engine won't make me go through the destitute line?
C.
So now the question is.. which FI system to go through, and which engine won't make me go through the destitute line?
C.
well what engine are you planning on putting in?
Miles likes MFI....
I like Megasquirt (even have a laptop ready for it)
some go with Kit Carlson(is he still doing it?)
Miles likes MFI....
I like Megasquirt (even have a laptop ready for it)
some go with Kit Carlson(is he still doing it?)
I have put together a kit for the guys with a 914 that replaces the electronics, fuel pump but still uses the OEM runners, plenum, TB and etc. This kit is not on my site yet, but I have sold 3 of them already for 1499.00. This includes the entire arrangement pre set up with a default fuel MAP and all wires and etc marked and terminated for installation.
Remember for the price of the kit you are not getting a box of parts, but rather a designed engine combinatioon with a known result that I am very familiar with- thet means I can support the product very well later on.
The kit includes everything from the main bearings to the rocker arms, all machines and ready to assemble.
Look into my 2270 kit, its one hell of a boost in power for the added 1500 bucks. Longevity and reliability are not lost over the 2056 either...
Remember for the price of the kit you are not getting a box of parts, but rather a designed engine combinatioon with a known result that I am very familiar with- thet means I can support the product very well later on.
The kit includes everything from the main bearings to the rocker arms, all machines and ready to assemble.
Look into my 2270 kit, its one hell of a boost in power for the added 1500 bucks. Longevity and reliability are not lost over the 2056 either...
| QUOTE (Carlitos Way @ Aug 24 2005, 08:00 PM) |
| OK, the link is now corrected... and I actually got a chance to jet on over to the web page. However, even if I'm considering the original FI, that's still a pretty steep price for someone on a budget. So, it seems, the best bet would be to forget the original DJET. And if I'm going to go with a "warmed up" engine, to go all out. Including FI. So now the question is.. which FI system to go through, and which engine won't make me go through the destitute line? C. |
shopped around TIV parts lately? that's a great price considering everything that goes into it... the parts ain't cheap to do things right
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 24 2005, 06:35 AM) |
| depends on a few things..... is the motor currently running fine? if yes...... do you have money to burn? a rebuild will cost you at a min. $2,000 if you do most all the work yourself...you'll gain 10 to 15hp and have the car undriveable for X amount of time........ you'll have to learn quickly that these are not Hondas, no easy bolt on modifications....a full rebuild (with carbs or aftermarket FI) or motor transplant is the only thing that'll get you a huge boost in power.... |
the car is no longer working fine. Hence the need for action. Money, time and workspace are limiting factors. each to a different exchange. If I had time, I can see tearing down an engine and learning everything about it. For a full time worker with a part time business, Time is at a premium most of the time. Workspace is tight bceause I share a garage with a neighbor. I was already "warned" by the landlord that the HOA does not approve of using our garages as "workshops or storage areas."
So.. I'm trying to balance all the needs. $2,000 is a lot of money for someone with my limited resources, but it is not unthinkable. The problem is... 3-4 weekends rebuilding the engine, re-doing the "extras" I will run across while dropping the engine could really run into about $3-4000 easily as we all know.
This makes a complete kit/engine like Jake's very appealing... but without the time and space and money... it's probably not the best source. I'd hate to rush through putting an engine together (something I've never done) and have it blow up.
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