As some of you know, I am going back and forth on putting in a 2.4l six or swapping a Subaru Ej25. I want to know what impact the Subaru engine will have on racing the car. I am specifically wondering how the PCA (and RMR since I am in Colorado) treats 914's with non-Porsche engine swaps in them. I want to be able to run my car at club events. I know there won't be a problem in SCCA racing. But I don't know about the "official" Porsche clubs...

The "national" PCA line is Porsche/Porsche. Your region MAY vary, but probably not in track events, and certainly not in points toward any sort of trophy. The Cap'n

i believe the policy is that you will not be allowed to race in pca club races unless your car has a porsche motor. if you put a -6 in your car, you will be put in a racing class designated for the improvements you made to your car. your improvements could very well put you in a class of very serious ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) racers and you may not be competitive, if that makes any difference to you. stock 2.0L 914's race in class J if i remember correctly. i have a car (but i don't race (yet)) that is a 2.0 w/webers and 911 suspension that is class I. you could probably get onto the pca website and find racing rules w/classes and modifications spelled out.

In most cases you will be in exhibition "X" class. Depending on the region they will allow you to compete...some don't allow them at all.

Converting to another Porsche engine is cool....juts njot chebbie, scoobies or other non Porsche engines....after all...it IS the Porsche Club.

In Zone 7 GGR (San Jose ca area) you may only run Porsche Chassis, motor and trans to compete in our TT series. Anyone can AX with most any type of car, in fun category. No awards or trophies at the end of the season.

Basically it must be a Porsche in all respects mechanically to be allowed to run in Timetrials. I have only seen one exception to this when someone years ago wanted to TT their POOPER and was allowed a one time only exemption.

I believe this is the case in the Regions (zones) that have TT events.

Matt,

yep all of the above is true.
I race in PCA club racing, RMVR vintage racing, and RMR drivers ed.

for colorado you will not be allowed to run in any of those clubs with a subaru engine.

You will be allowed to do drivers ed events with a couple of the multi-car type clubs that have much looser "run whatya brung" rules. Their events are not racing and not wheel to wheel. I don't think they use ambulance support either if that factors in for you.

I'm not as familiar with the SCCA classes, but my guess is that you'll be screwed with the subaru engine there also. They will probably put you into a full modified class. Although I don't know that for sure.

RMR says motor and tranny from porsche in a porsche chassis.

regarding the -6, yes you will be in modified classes based upon displacement, but you would still be allowed to run in both RMR-DE and PCA club racing.

brant

Thanks folks. This is really good information. I don't really care about being competitive. I just want to come out and participate. So if my car was banned all together, that would really bite.

In light of the above, this decision just got really difficult. I have had a low mileage Ej25 with ECU and wiring harness just dropped into my lap as payment for doing a WRX swap on a guy's MY00 2.5RS. And I found out from Renegade that their Subaru conversion kit doesn't require any welding to install. This is important to me, because I would always want to be able to cleanly revert my car to original spec to maintain some sort of value.

QUOTE

This is important to me, because I would always want to be able to cleanly revert my car to original spec to maintain some sort of value.

welding = no
cutting original sheetmetal = yes

the renegade kit requires the radiator up front, which also means cutting...sure it can be repaired later on, but not too easily...AFAIK, there are no "kits" to adapt the motor and radiator into the engine compartment.

I know their kit has you cutting sheet metal. I think I have figured out a solution around that. It will require cutting up a hood, but I have a yard full of spare hoods at my disposal...

So whats considered a Porsche motor in a 914? Specifically, if I build something out of a VW Bus case, its not really a "Porsche" motor".

I guess it would depend if they decided to check the # stamped onto the engine case...

not too likely they would care about a VW bus motor...
more likely they would care about a Type 1
much more likely they would care if they found a subaru or Chevy motor in there....

brant

That's why I'm going to make some special valve covers that say "Porsche" on them!

Well Fuch em then, I dont own a Porsche anymore, it's a Chevrolet 914

What class would the guy with a 928 4.5L be in, then? GT-only or X?

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Aug 29 2005, 07:07 AM)

As some of you know, I am going back and forth on putting in a 2.4l six or swapping a Subaru Ej25. I want to know what impact the Subaru engine will have on racing the car. I am specifically wondering how the PCA (and RMR since I am in Colorado) treats 914's with non-Porsche engine swaps in them. I want to be able to run my car at club events. I know there won't be a problem in SCCA racing. But I don't know about the "official" Porsche clubs...

Of course, the Subaru clubs would welcome you with open arms

If you want to "race" in AX or Club racing, PCA will allow all kinds of mods including swaps to "other" types of Porsche engines, but will not allow non Pcar's in Club Racing, nor non Pcar engines.

But if you are willing to do DE's and are willing to stay with them, (thats what we do), all of the Ohio regions, Chicago, St Louis, Kansas City, will allow other makes of cars and we have probably done over 100 events in 18 years.

Some east coast regions with huge memberships restrict their events to Porsche only, but even they allow us to run with them (we have a 3.2 L in our 914).

We have done DE's with PCA/BMW/AudiQuatro among others clubs, and they all allow Cobra kit cars, Ferraris, Alfas, Corvettes, Vipers, Subaru's, Mazda, Chevy powered 914s and even Mustangs to run with us and I have never heard of anyone being refused because of the make of the engine. (and they all seem to accept anything that will pass a safety inspection).

QUOTE (flesburg @ Aug 29 2005, 07:14 PM)

If you want to "race" in AX or Club racing, PCA will allow all kinds of mods including swaps to "other" types of Porsche engines, but will not allow non Pcar's in Club Racing, nor non Pcar engines. But if you are willing to do DE's and are willing to stay with them, (thats what we do), all of the Ohio regions, Chicago, St Louis, Kansas City, will allow other makes of cars and we have probably done over 100 events in 18 years. Some east coast regions with huge memberships restrict their events to Porsche only, but even they allow us to run with them (we have a 3.2 L in our 914). We have done DE's with PCA/BMW/AudiQuatro among others clubs, and they all allow Cobra kit cars, Ferraris, Alfas, Corvettes, Vipers, Subaru's, Mazda, Chevy powered 914s and even Mustangs to run with us and I have never heard of anyone being refused because of the make of the engine. (and they all seem to accept anything that will pass a safety inspection).

Dale,

in colorado though that doesn't hold true.
maybe subaru club, or nissan club, or some other club would allow Matt to participate, but porsche club will not.

sorry but we have some drivers ed events that cap at 100+ cars and they don't need to let any other cars in.

so not true where Matt lives unfortunately.

brant

Yeah Porsche club is pretty snootie about Porsche power plants. But think of the options there. Cayenne V8 or maybe even the new Cayenne V6.

QUOTE (brant @ Aug 29 2005, 08:29 PM)

QUOTE (flesburg @ Aug 29 2005, 07:14 PM) If you want to "race" in AX or Club racing, PCA will allow all kinds of mods including swaps to "other" types of Porsche engines, but will not allow non Pcar's in Club Racing, nor non Pcar engines. But if you are willing to do DE's and are willing to stay with them, (thats what we do), all of the Ohio regions, Chicago, St Louis, Kansas City, will allow other makes of cars and we have probably done over 100 events in 18 years. Some east coast regions with huge memberships restrict their events to Porsche only, but even they allow us to run with them (we have a 3.2 L in our 914). We have done DE's with PCA/BMW/AudiQuatro among others clubs, and they all allow Cobra kit cars, Ferraris, Alfas, Corvettes, Vipers, Subaru's, Mazda, Chevy powered 914s and even Mustangs to run with us and I have never heard of anyone being refused because of the make of the engine. (and they all seem to accept anything that will pass a safety inspection). Dale, in colorado though that doesn't hold true. maybe subaru club, or nissan club, or some other club would allow Matt to participate, but porsche club will not. sorry but we have some drivers ed events that cap at 100+ cars and they don't need to let any other cars in. so not true where Matt lives unfortunately. brant

Yep,
Ultimately, my decision may have been made for me. Since I work in the industry, and the company pays my PCA and RMR dues, it is important that I be able to be a part of these local events. There is just too much collateral advertising for the shop by having me be out there.

Ultimately, this would be a non-issue if I could afford another Porsche as a dedicated track car. Maybe in a year or two...

Just pull the motor out the the boss's racecar when he's not looking . I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

Ferg

stick with the porsche six....

QUOTE (Ferg @ Aug 30 2005, 09:22 AM)

Just pull the motor out the the boss's racecar when he's not looking . I'm sure he wouldn't mind. Ferg

Now that's an idea...

Brant and Matt,

Good information...re DE with a non Pcar.

I think too, right?, that the other comment was correct, that is about big Pcar swaps and club racing...

With our "stock" 3.2 engine, in a Club race, we end up in GT3, and are up against $100K (or more) cars, and so are totally non-competitive. We cannot even keep up with GT5 cars, because of HP and rpm they can turn.

So, if you want to race in Club racing, and you want to be competitive, and your build budget is under 50 or 70 thou, you should stay out of GT classes and stay in a production class, and that limits you to a 2.0 L 6 in a 914 (and it may have to be an "original" six, I'm not sure, or run with a stock 4 cyl 914 (and then you may still be up against non-turbo 944s and not be competitive against them.

The least expensive club race cars in PCA are 944 non-turbos. You can probably be in a production class and have a competitive car for $20 thou or less.

For all of these reasons, we stick to DE events, are instructors, and drive our car as fast as it will go (and it is pretty fast, just not a car that can win in its class). We can out run most any Class F 944 turbo, and most 911s and totally piss them off. (Most of our club racers run in all our DE events too).

Dale,

I ran PCA club racing with a production 2.0/4 from around 96 until 02
I completely agree.

if running production class buy a 944 NA
(actually Matt, your 24S is the car to have in class "I" the way i figure it)

or GT5 if running a 914/6

a production 914/6 has to run a stock motor with stock venturi's and 110hp.
not a competetive car.

yes a 3.2 will kill you unless its a real race car.
yes a competetive car needs to be dedicated and fairly expensive.
dedicated track car with under 2000 lbs

although there are bargains out there.
my friend built a GT3-914 with an electromotive 3.3L
it was a TTOD car at 9 out of 10 events it attended.
(the 10th event it was pulled in while in 1st place so as to let someone else win)
and it recently traded hands for 25K

so there are options out there.

but all of us non rich guys just build porsche motor'd cars and go have fun.
I will be running a stock 2.0S motor in the GT5 class in about 3 weeks.
I don't expect to beat the 2.2 motors in that class....
but I know I will have 5 or 6 other cars to play with and just plain have fun..
and thats what its all about really... having fun.

brant