My 2.2 conversion has ground to a halt as I'm now contemplating massive rewiring on the car.

I learned the '71 and '75 relay boards are identical, so I'll assume all relay boards are identical. I now have three relay boards, and I'll probably sell all of them, as I hate them, and will replace them with something better. Jeff, I believe you wanted engine wiring harnesses? I have at least two, and maybe three, complete with the connectors.

My stock fusebox has a broken "foot", and is pretty badly corroded, and I also discovered a lot of burnt wiring near it. [edit: here I complained about JWest's fusebox, and later discovered it was either my problem or a shipping error, read on].

What's interesting is that you don't actually need any fuses in the stock panel to make the car go. It will start and run without any of them, though the charging system won't work if one of them (7 or 8, I think) isn't hooked up. You'll also have no brake lights. Probably due to a TUV requirement, there are separate fuses for the left and right parking lights, but only two other fuses handle a zillion other items.

Here's what I'm contemplating:

A simple one relay, one fuse plate in the engine bay, the relay to control switched +12 back there, for both the coil and the fuel pump (carbs). The fuse is for the fuel pump, and I'll probably just do an inline ATO fuse. Battery power will go to the starter solenoid (as stock), then to this plate, then forward through the center tunnel. Starter and switched power wires will come back from the ignition switch to this plate through the tunnel. Along with a G light wire from D+ on the VR (which I'll swap out with a solid-state unit, which I'll just mount to the tin) and gauge wires (tach, oil press, oil temp) through the tunnel, that should be enough to get the car running with all new wiring.

At the dash, I'll have another inline fuse for gauges, taillights, turnsignals, brake lights. No blower motors, so no need for those. Flasher relay will be here.

In the front trunk, I'll have another relay panel with relays for low-beams, high-beams, fogs, horn, and headlight motors, each fused here, with another fuse for the wipers.

Finally, one more bundle of wires leading back through the tunnel from the dash to provide taillights, rear turns, and brake lights. I don't have a working backup switch on either gearbox, so I won't even bother.

Once I go EFI, I can replace the engine bay relay plate with the MS relay board, which has three relays and four fuses, plus well marked connectors for sensors and whatnot.

Any comments from the electrical types here?

If you had the instructions (not my fault - I send instructions with every new unit and I could have supplied to you if you asked) then you would have had a drilling template.

Help is available, but refusing to ask for it, and then ragging me over the issues faced seems pretty pointless.

It's rather moot, as the fuse holders I was using became virtually unobtainable, and I have a pile of a different version almost ready to sell.

At least I am not the only one having electrical problems

I had my 914 die on me 3 times yesterday (twice in the driveway while testing a new map table, and the 3rd time coming around the corner approaching my house, luckly I was able to coast up to my driveway)

I "think" the 1st 2 times it was due to the wires going into the 14pin connector that I rigged up and the 3rd time the fuel pump fuse popped....upon looking at the fuse, it looks like it's been warm for a while.....

The symtoms are very similar to when I had the car die on me before the new fuel injection, so a re-wire is in order.

I did order an Engman fuse kit last night...I actually was going to get the JW kit but no luck ordering on-line.

QUOTE (James Adams @ Aug 29 2005, 10:07 AM)

If you had the instructions (not my fault - I send instructions with every new unit and I could have supplied to you if you asked) then you would have had a drilling template. Help is available, but refusing to ask for it, and then ragging me over the issues faced seems pretty pointless. It's rather moot, as the fuse holders I was using became virtually unobtainable, and I have a pile of a different version almost ready to sell.

Like I said, I really didn't mean to rag on you, since this was my fault to some degree. No instructions came in the box, and I wasn't surprised because I didn't really expect any. Thought this would be a no-brainer install. I was wrong, and impulsive, and didn't check the fit of anything before drilling the holes in the fuse panel. As for the new version, IMHO, the side terminals just don't work with the stock wiring harness, at least not on early cars. After 30+ years of sitting in one place, they're quite reluctant to stretch to reach the positions asked of them on the side terminal style, and I couldn't really recommend anyone use that type if they want a reasonably plug and play new fuse panel, no matter who makes it.

If the new version has rear terminals, I'd be interested in having a look. Any photos you can email me? I can keep them to myself, and only whine at you by way of constructive criticism.

I have one of the Jwest fuse boxes. Very well engineered, and it came with very detailed directions and a full set of wiring pigtails to adapt the 90 degree change for the wiring connections.

Sounds like you lost some stuff out of the box.

QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Aug 29 2005, 10:53 AM)

I have one of the Jwest fuse boxes. Very well engineered, and it came with very detailed directions and a full set of wiring pigtails to adapt the 90 degree change for the wiring connections. Sounds like you lost some stuff out of the box.

Interesting. The only thing that came in that box was the fusebox itself and a flyer for other products. Nada else. Sounds like I didn't get a whole package. I ordered the item off James' website several months ago, so whoever does the order fulfilment messed up.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 29 2005, 02:31 PM)

a flyer for other products.

No such document exists. The only paper products that come from here are instructions for RennShift, fog module, fuse box, and pivot kit. I have not had any paper promotion items for over a year.

An invoice is also shipped, but it is quite plain and to the point.

I think you may have tossed the instructions and the wiring splitters/adapters with the packaging.

QUOTE (James Adams @ Aug 29 2005, 11:51 AM)

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 29 2005, 02:31 PM) a flyer for other products. No such document exists. The only paper products that come from here are instructions for RennShift, fog module, fuse box, and pivot kit. I have not had any paper promotion items for over a year. An invoice is also shipped, but it is quite plain and to the point. I think you may have tossed the instructions and the wiring splitters/adapters with the packaging.

No, I quite remember being surprised by the bareness of the box. The ONLY things in there were the fusebox and the flyer. Not even any packing material. Did Cousin Bob get wild drunk and pack a few of these for you? The order may very well have been over a year ago. It's been sitting on my shelf for quite some time. I've cleaned the garage heavily since, so it's unlikely I still have either the box or the paper that came in it, but I'll hunt for either.

In any case, as you say, the whole thing is moot. There's enough burnt wiring in my harness that I'm going to replace it, anyway, and I'll probably end up using the individual four-place fuseholders from your box, just remounted.

My apologies for dissing your product.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 29 2005, 03:42 PM)

No, I quite remember being surprised by the bareness of the box. The ONLY things in there were the fusebox and the flyer. Not even any packing material.

Well, you have me baffled. I use both bubble wrap and brown paper when packing the fuse boxes, and I have a set method of wrapping them. It certainly did not leave here that way, and I guess you do not have the extra labels that identify the circuits as they changed from year to year, either.

Anyway, if you intend to pass the fuse box along to another member I certainly will supply the missing items and instructions to them.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 29 2005, 12:01 PM)

My 2.2 conversion has ground to a halt as I'm now contemplating massive rewiring on the car. I learned the '71 and '75 relay boards are identical, so I'll assume all relay boards are identical. I now have three relay boards, and I'll probably sell all of them, as I hate them, and will replace them with something better. Jeff, I believe you wanted engine wiring harnesses? I have at least two, and maybe three, complete with the connectors. My stock fusebox has a broken "foot", and is pretty badly corroded, and I also discovered a lot of burnt wiring near it. I have a James West replacement fusebox, which turns out to be pretty difficult to fit. The stock fusebox has all of the wires going into the "back" of the fuse panel, where the JWest fusebox has the spade terminals on the sides. This means trying to stretch very old wires a good distance to get them to fit, after you've drilled holes in the fuse panel to mount the thing, only to discover (no instructions) that the holes need to be redrilled, as the relays won't fit properly unless the new fusebox is mounted well away from them. I don't mean to rag on James, but I'd not recommended one of these things as they are. Engman also has an ATO fuse panel, and the terminals are on the sides, too. At least his comes with a new fuse panel, so no drilling (and re-drilling) is required. What's interesting is that you don't actually need any fuses in the stock panel to make the car go. It will start and run without any of them, though the charging system won't work if one of them (7 or 8, I think) isn't hooked up. You'll also have no brake lights. Probably due to a TUV requirement, there are separate fuses for the left and right parking lights, but only two other fuses handle a zillion other items. Here's what I'm contemplating: A simple one relay, one fuse plate in the engine bay, the relay to control switched +12 back there, for both the coil and the fuel pump (carbs). The fuse is for the fuel pump, and I'll probably just do an inline ATO fuse. Battery power will go to the starter solenoid (as stock), then to this plate, then forward through the center tunnel. Starter and switched power wires will come back from the ignition switch to this plate through the tunnel. Along with a G light wire from D+ on the VR (which I'll swap out with a solid-state unit, which I'll just mount to the tin) and gauge wires (tach, oil press, oil temp) through the tunnel, that should be enough to get the car running with all new wiring. At the dash, I'll have another inline fuse for gauges, taillights, turnsignals, brake lights. No blower motors, so no need for those. Flasher relay will be here. In the front trunk, I'll have another relay panel with relays for low-beams, high-beams, fogs, horn, and headlight motors, each fused here, with another fuse for the wipers. Finally, one more bundle of wires leading back through the tunnel from the dash to provide taillights, rear turns, and brake lights. I don't have a working backup switch on either gearbox, so I won't even bother. Once I go EFI, I can replace the engine bay relay plate with the MS relay board, which has three relays and four fuses, plus well marked connectors for sensors and whatnot. Any comments from the electrical types here?

Would any of the stuff from Painless work, seems like with a little work someone could come up with a completely modern wiring harness.

QUOTE

Would any of the stuff from Painless work, seems like with a little work someone could come up with a completely modern wiring harness.

sure it could, but your definition of "a little work" must be different than mine..it's a major undertaking in my book.....

I've looked at the Painless stuff. It's not bad, but assembling the bits is not the hard part. The hard part is pulling all of the old wire out through age-hardened grommets and disentangling everything, followed by pulling new harnesses through new grommets that are never quite the right size, as you can't find correct copies of the old ones anymore.

Most of the Painless kits only come with one relay, and maybe a flasher, when you really ought to have relays on all of the high current things (low beams, high beams, horn, fogs on cars with them), and they mount the relays to the fuseboard, which is nice in that it centralizes things, but bad in that you now have to run N 14g wires where you really only need one 12g wire if you mounted the relays closer to the items being powered (hence the relay board in the front trunk, since most of the high-current stuff is in the front). Running one fat wire is much easier than 5 not-quite-as-fat wires.

I also believe fuses should either be close to the power source, or close to the thing being fused. The latter makes it easier to isolate fuses based on what stopped working, the former means more of the circuit is properly fused. If you have a wire from, say, the battery to the left-front headlight, and the fuse at the headlight, and the wire chafes at the rear firewall, the fuse never "sees" all the current, as it's running from the battery straight to ground a few inches from the battery. Instead, the item in question stops working, the wire catches on fire, and the fuse just sits there not doing anything. You solve THAT problem by having a 30amp fuse near the battery, and another 15amp fuse near the headlight, and you have the one 12g wire feeding ALL the front lights, horn, etc. through relays near the items. You then only run 20g wires from the switches on the dash to the relays, so you have several tiny wires and one big wire running through the firewall. It's kind of a belt-and-suspenders approach, but it actually cuts down on wire mass, and is safer than one central fusebox.

I've almost decided on a supplier. Waytek Wire sells 250ft spools of proper automotive grade wire (high temp, oil-resistant insulation) for only $13 for 18g and $25 for 14g, in enough colors that I can keep circuits reasonably separate, and mostly match the OEM pattern (no tracers, but I can get close). My main beef with them is they don't sell nice spade terminals, so I may have to buy those elsewhere. An outfit called British Wiring sells excellent spade terminals (uninsulated crimp-on with separate fingers to grip insulation), but they charge 3x as much as Waytek for bulk wire. However, they also sell tracer'd wire for the same price as solid color wire, so you could completely duplicate an OEM color scheme.

QUOTE

I've almost decided on a supplier. Waytek Wire sells 250ft spools of proper automotive grade wire

I'm sure you could recoup some money or even make a few nickles selling some of it to us

Its an interesting idea James...it is also an incredible amount of work and cost. If your existing harness is all hacked up, why not find a good used OEM harness and clean it up and install it?

People ask me to build replacement main body 914 wiring harnesses and I can say that it is extremely labor intensive, especially the first one, and the correct parts would cost a mint. No one will buy them, it would be prohibitively expensive and good used OEM harnesses are avaiable reasonably. Wire in the correct size/color/striping costs about $35-50 a spool, its all special order, and you need how many correct combinations? Probably 50-75 I would guess. Just getting a close color will make it difficult to trouble shoot. If you are going to re-wire, might as well choose your own color scheme to boot, it might be easier in the long-run.

The benefits - new wire/terminals, new relays and circuits and fuse technology could be worth it, but its a high price to pay. And only you will know how to fix it.

Keep us informed about how it turns out. No one else has dared try it before.

Sounds like fun James. Take your time and pay attention to details and I think you'll have a great "upgrade". But there are many pitfalls and short-cuts that could take it into DAPO territory. Keep us posted on your progress.

BTW, it would be nice to amend your original post to enlighten future readers. Something on the end like, "*Future discussion has indicated that the fuse kit I received was missing critical items that would have made installation much much easier." Whether you meant it or not, your original posting comes down pretty hard on James.

QUOTE (McMark @ Aug 30 2005, 12:00 AM)

Sounds like fun James. Take your time and pay attention to details and I think you'll have a great "upgrade". But there are many pitfalls and short-cuts that could take it into DAPO territory. Keep us posted on your progress. BTW, it would be nice to amend your original post to enlighten future readers. Something on the end like, "*Future discussion has indicated that the fuse kit I received was missing critical items that would have made installation much much easier." Whether you meant it or not, your original posting comes down pretty hard on James.

Good point, done.

I've done two complete rewires before, but they were on Minis, which are stone-axe simple (OEM system has two fuses on the whole car, both 30 amps, one for switched power, the other for unswitched power, no relays at all, and no fuses for the headlights). The complete harness is only 12ft long, the important part is only 3ft long (dash to engine bay), and only runs through one panel (the firewall). I went from the car bare of wires to running with brake lights in an afternoon. I added the rest in stages over the next week or so.

I'd not try to duplicate the factory color pattern. As stated, tracer wire is simply too expensive. I believe I can get about 14 different solid colors from Waytek, which should be sufficient if I reuse some colors and tag appropriately. The factory does this itself. Yellow is used both for low-beams and the starter, for example. White is used for high beams and EVERY wire going to or coming from the ECU (what a nightmare).

Jeff, PM or email me if you want the OEM stuff I have, esp. the relay board connectors.