fyi
a fairly comprehensive report & looks good for us (and those who restore them).

Soo... what does it say?

lol

Yah, what's the scoop!

I read the update and couldn't help but wonder where they get their selling prices from. I have yet to see even a super clean 914-4 actually selling for the prices they're showing. But if it's for real, it is encouraging news for us 914 owners.

But, on the other hand if alot of non-914 owning people (hence non CASOB's) read those market balue surveys and are willing to pay that, prices will go up in general.

QUOTE (jd74914 @ Sep 26 2005, 03:15 PM)

But, on the other hand if alot of non-914 owning people (hence non CASOB's) read those market balue surveys and are willing to pay that, prices will go up in general.

It'll make the non-914 owning people get the drool factor after reading the update and just have to have a 914. "No problem sir. Just throw money at me, lots of money, and this teener can be yours."

I've wondered for quite some time where Bruce Anderson's (for it's he who generates those articles) gets the pricing data. Some of it, I suspect, is simply data he gets directly from sellers and buyers. Perhaps that's ALL of it. His prices for 912s are also substantially higher than I see in the market.

Part of the problem is simply getting enough data. 914s don't sell in large numbers, and the prices vary quite a bit from deal to deal. A couple of people paying too much for a car can substantially skew the results. Non-project cars sell even more rarely than cars that need a fair amount of work.

There are 10 914s on the SF Bay section of Craigslist right now. I wonder what percentage of all 914s for sale in the US that represents? 1%, 5%, 10%, 20%? There are only two in the LA section. There are three in Sacramento.

Based on these listings, you can buy a drivable 2.0 for no more than $3500 (based on three listings for what read like cars that are in "average" condition, based on 914s I've actually seen) in California. These likely have little rust, and no doubt require SOMETHING in the way of major service to be drivable regularly. Figure transport at $1000 coast to coast, so for $4500-5000, you should be able to get a usable 2.0 anywhere in the continential US. "Nice" cars are more, "projects" are less.

Once you get into "nice" cars, some things besides just the car itself start to matter. History becomes a concern. Niggly little details can make a huge difference in price. Rationality is NOT what sets the price, either. At the highest levels, only one or two cars might change hands every year, so statistical analysis of the prices is almost impossible. The $15K 914s posted here sometimes are way into this range. These cars have to be super-exceptional, and the buyer has to really want that particular car.

All on fours only, btw. I don't look at Six pricing enough to be able to tell, except that $10K is the floor, and most cars will be more than that.

so...

What did bruce say this month?

ANyone gona tell us?

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Sep 26 2005, 03:35 PM)

so... What did bruce say this month? ANyone gona tell us?

Buy a copy and find out...

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Sep 26 2005, 06:44 PM)

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Sep 26 2005, 03:35 PM) so... What did bruce say this month? ANyone gona tell us? Buy a copy and find out...

I want to know too. Please. We are but poor students

Its either here or at B&N (I don't pay anyways)

One of the problems with their data is that they use reader reports. It's pretty obvious that if you buy an expensive 914 and/or just want the Excellence numbers to go up in your favor that you just send in a reader sales/buying report with an obscence figure.

Ideally, they should have someone on staff emailing sellers and buyers on ebay transactions and craigslist transactions. That kind of data on sales would be more real world.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Sep 26 2005, 05:44 PM)

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Sep 26 2005, 03:35 PM) so... What did bruce say this month? ANyone gona tell us? Buy a copy and find out...

I tried that. The three copies there were October and the market update was for 911 Turbos.

So what month Excellence are we talking about?

November 2005. I'm sure it will be in the news stands soon.

My copy came in the mail today, news stands should be out shortly. The numbers seem about right for excellent cars. The E-Bay super clean sounding 914-6 bidding went to $28,100 if I remember correctly. Sounds cheap next to a $59,000 Cayman

That little table looks like nonsense to me. According to that, I paid almost $3000 less than I should have. I got a good deal, but not that good

prices seem about right to me......

fuck, these are the prices we were wishing a 914 could command 10 years ago. Now that its in print your guys are bitchin! WTF

QUOTE

these are the prices we were wishing a 914 could command 10 years ago. Now that its in print your guys are bitchin! WTF

all depends on whether you're buyin' or sellin' I guess

The data comes from an average of vehicles that have actually sold. So a cherry low mile '73 2.0 that breaks the ceiling would throw the average off.

These cars are now 30 plus years old, and very good (not hit, not rusted out and welded back together) examples are getting harder to find. Even in the PCA Panorama, you don't usually see more than five or six 914's total, when as little as five years ago there'd be a dozen minimum.

Show me a cherry, perfect '73 2.0 for less than the high price in the market report! It's not unusual to see these cars bring more than the prices posted.

Another factor is restoration costs, you can restore the same vintage 911 for the same money, or less (engine not withstanding). 914 parts are in many cases more expensive than 911 parts. While you can't get that money back at the time of sale, it is a consideration that effects the selling price, as well as perfect cars that don't need a restoration. Which again, are getting hard to find.

Let us not forget that the average 914'er is on the "thrifty" side of the Porsche spectrum, and grumbling about high prices is standard M.O. That is until it's time to sell YOUR 914!

Pete Stout, editor of Excellence, is on this board. Were I him, I'd be more than a little annoyed at people posting copyrighted content from his mag on this board. It's a good mag serving a tiny audience, and should be supported...

However, while the numbers are shown, I'll agree they're silly high, unless "poor" condition indicates a car that's in much better shape than most 914s I've actually seen. I paid only $3000 for a '71 1.7 in early 2004 I'd place roughly between the "poor" and "good" categories, and felt I paid too MUCH. According the this, I got a screaming good deal. However, I could go out and buy 4-5 914s tomorrow for less than the "poor" prices on any of the types listed, and some of them I'd consider "good"!

Were I selling, I'd LIKE the prices to be this high, but I doubt I'd find any buyers if I attempted to sell a car at those prices.

You live in San Mateo where there are still lots of 914's.
Right now there are 3 really nice 914's for sale in the 8-10K range in Seattle. Now that is good to see!

I just heard of a couple to go look at......in the under 3k range. I am still a cheap ass.

Look in Hemmings and you will see pricing like this.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Sep 26 2005, 05:15 PM)

Pete Stout, editor of Excellence, is on this board. Were I him, I'd be more than a little annoyed at people posting copyrighted content from his mag on this board.

I may have published one of Pete's first Porsche articles when I was editor of "Twin Trunks Tribune"!

If I were foolish enough to post a scanned copy of a copyrighted publication, I'd find a CYA, before doing so.

QUOTE (9146986 @ Sep 26 2005, 05:12 PM)

The data comes from an average of vehicles that have actually sold. So a cherry low mile '73 2.0 that breaks the ceiling would throw the average off. These cars are now 30 plus years old, and very good (not hit, not rusted out and welded back together) examples are getting harder to find. Even in the PCA Panorama, you don't usually see more than five or six 914's total, when as little as five years ago there'd be a dozen minimum. Show me a cherry, perfect '73 2.0 for less than the high price in the market report! It's not unusual to see these cars bring more than the prices posted. Another factor is restoration costs, you can restore the same vintage 911 for the same money, or less (engine not withstanding). 914 parts are in many cases more expensive than 911 parts. While you can't get that money back at the time of sale, it is a consideration that effects the selling price, as well as perfect cars that don't need a restoration. Which again, are getting hard to find. Let us not forget that the average 914'er is on the "thrifty" side of the Porsche spectrum, and grumbling about high prices is standard M.O. That is until it's time to sell YOUR 914!

I have no quibble with the "excellent" numbers, but I have a real beef with the "poor" and "good" numbers, which are way too high. Finding buyers at "excellent" prices is also very hard. Local listings will NOT, in general, get you those prices.

I would define the condition categories as: poor = "needs welding", good = "needs paint", excellent = "needs nothing". Based on those definitions, you could fill a car hauler with Bay Area 914s in poor condition for $1000-1500 each in one weekend.

I hate to tell you that prices climbing, never did anything for the enthuisiasts.

Vintage guitars, nice retirement, but I can't even find one I'd like to have.. anymore.... coins... nice jingle, when you could keep them all in a cigar box, and touch them..

Prices going up just drive the people who love the machines away, and make a silly conversation starter, for someone who'd never have noticed.



M

BTW

All you spoiled West coast kids should come and look for pricing in Midwest. Looks close to right for Midwest through East coast. I costs a $1000 to get one of your average cars here.

Shows $5500 for fair 74 1.8L about right if I wanted to sell and hold out. There is a 73 2.0L near here for $6995 (old sports car dealer) has not sold, but they have not dropped price either. You guys (and gals) have no idea how good you have it.

prices seem a bit high for MY locale. CA. central valley. I'm planning to put my 76 2.0 on the market soon. I would say mine is the high end of "good" , rebuilt engine, fresh paint, int. & tires. I'm thinking 5-6K is about the top end. Hope I'm wrong.....

QUOTE (Tobra @ Sep 26 2005, 06:57 PM)

That little table looks like nonsense to me.  According to that, I paid almost $3000 less than I should have.  I got a good deal, but not that good

And according to that table I paid $4000.00 less than I should have for my 75 2.0 and $5000.00 less than I should have for my 76 2.0L, both bought within the last 2 1/2 years! I love these cars (but sometime hate them ) But with this info maybe I will love them both, always and forever.

QUOTE (qa1142 @ Sep 26 2005, 06:02 PM)

BTW All you spoiled West coast kids should come and look for pricing in Midwest. Looks close to right for Midwest through East coast. I costs a $1000 to get one of your average cars here. Shows $5500 for fair 74 1.8L about right if I wanted to sell and hold out. There is a 73 2.0L near here for $6995 (old sports car dealer) has not sold, but they have not dropped price either. You guys (and gals) have no idea how good you have it.

Believe me, us "spoiled" West Coast kids pay for our cheap cars in other ways. If you saw my house and the price tag attached to it, you'd not think we were so spoiled...

I think I have to retract my earlier statement. Looking more closely at the numbers I think the "good" numbers are pretty close. The "poor" numbers are too high, and the "excellent" numbers are too low. Perhaps Bruce considers cars that "need welding" to be beneath consideration. They're "ultra poor".

whether they are too high or too low, anyone can debate....but can't we all be a little happy that are car are increasing in value?????

jeez

I think what you are seeing is that non-914 owners are beginning to appreciate them and are turning into first time 914 owners. Not everyone wants a project, so cars in good and excellent condition are increasing in value.

oh no, we aren't a cult following anymore

Those number make me feel pretty good, I think I got a heck for a deal from Craig.

makes me feel good. I have a 75 2.0 and to know that only a little over 4,000 were made makes me appreciate mine a little more.

...UPDATE.....My motor is out, separated the transmission.....now what????

I also have a "good" Hood if anybody wants it.....FREE!!! Just give me some knowledge and know how on the 501 and motor and we call it even stevens....

bye for now....

your favorite fat guy

fl

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Sep 26 2005, 07:15 PM)

Pete Stout, editor of Excellence, is on this board. Were I him, I'd be more than a little annoyed at people posting copyrighted content from his mag on this board. It's a good mag serving a tiny audience, and should be supported...

Without knowing all the legalities involved, I'd have to ask why? The source of the info (Excellence Magazine) was posted right up front, and credit given to the magazine for the info. The text of the article, in spite of requests, was not given.

If Pete Stout is that insecure (which I doubt he is, but since you seem to be speaking on his behalf, or on behalf of what you think he might think...???) I'd have to ask why is he, or you, on this board (feel free to blast me for that question, as perhaps you might)? On this board I've seen a willingness to share information that was gained with a lot more blood, sweat, and tears than what I imagine went into Pete's article.

At 914club .com we share info, and everyone seems to know that. I sometimes wonder about how many skinned knuckles, family arguments, brains racked, reworks, frustrating experiences, credit cards over charged, financial hardships, and downright end of the ropes experiences our members here have endured in order to share what they have learned with us so that we might learn from their hardships. And all at no cost to us other than to be a member here, and maybe they hope we'll do the same in return.

Right or wrong, this topic wasn't posted by someone trying to rip Pete off, or take advantage of him. It was posted as a sharing of current info (a table of prices, overall a small part of the complete article), that may very well be far off track (reference the magazine to see the whole article).

Actually, I see this as free advertisement for Pete, as well as Excellence Magazine i.e. if you want the whole article go buy the magazine... better yet, subscribe as many of us here do.

Don Bledsoe
Boise, Idaho

QUOTE (dbledsoe @ Sep 26 2005, 07:36 PM)

Actually, I see this as free advertisement for Pete, as well as Excellence Magazine i.e. if you want the whole article go buy the magazine... better yet, subscribe as many of us here do. Don Bledsoe Boise, Idaho

well said,

This is a great magazine, and I just got my second issue in the post today.....i've noticed, that the "914" advertisements are adding up, get yer parts now, before they sky rocket.

makes you think that the 914 will be the cool undiscovered secret of the porsche family tree.

QUOTE (fatlando @ Sep 26 2005, 09:34 PM)

makes me feel good. I have a 75 2.0 and to know that only a little over 4,000 were made makes me appreciate mine a little more. ...UPDATE.....My motor is out, separated the transmission.....now what???? I also have a "good" Hood if anybody wants it.....FREE!!! Just give me some knowledge and know how on the 501 and motor and we call it even stevens.... bye for now.... your favorite fat guy fl

Lando, my favorite fat Dude,

I dug the absorbers out of the boxes and will clean the little bit of crud (grease) off them and get them on their way to you this week. If you need any other 75/76 bouncing Betty bumper stuff let me know. I have two sets of them, complete.

Don

Yeah, but there are copyright laws. I do read Excellence and don't want us to piss off Pete as he does post here and contributes to the madness here.

Wait!!!!!!!!!! If I sell my car what will I buy????? A better 914 or different 914????

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Sep 26 2005, 09:45 PM)

Yeah, but there are copyright laws. I do read Excellence and don't want us to piss off Pete as he does post here and contributes to the madness here.

Agreed. But credit to the source was given.

Sorry if I don't share the same concern for pissing off Pete, which he should have no reason to be pissed off about. Credit was given to the magazine source.

I am a lot more concerned about crediting the poeple who REALLY contribute here. I see a lot less credit given to them than what has been wasted on this topic since it was hijacked for consideration of Pete's article .

I could try to name names but it would be nearly endless.

QUOTE (dbledsoe @ Sep 26 2005, 08:04 PM)

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Sep 26 2005, 09:45 PM) Yeah, but there are copyright laws. I do read Excellence and don't want us to piss off Pete as he does post here and contributes to the madness here. Agreed. But credit to the source was given. Sorry if I don't share the same concern for pissing off Pete, which he should have no reason to be pissed off about. Credit was given to the magazine source. I am a lot more concerned about crediting the poeple who REALLY contribute here. I see a lot less credit given to them than what has been wasted on this topic since it was hijacked for consideration of Pete's article . I could try to name names but it would be nearly endless.

Copyright isn't about "credit". If you have the copyright, it's your privilege to allow or disallow the material to be reproduced. Excellence was "credited", but no one asked permission. Whether or not you think that's "right" doesn't make it legal to do so.

Lots of people on this board happily give away information, as does Pete. That doesn't mean you should just take it w/o asking for it. It's not just illegal, it's being rude to a contributor to this board.

I agree with Miles. I'm happy the little twin trunks but sad as the price point my change the type of owner it attracts. We shall see...

BTW: I'm sure in your excitement your ment no disrespect or harm to Exellence. As much as we all appreciate you sharing the pages of a mag you purchased, It would be in your best interest to delete the scan with the article. If you want to share the info state the source and type the content in your post. Protect us all from Copy right infringement.

Pete is a good friend here to us all. He is a serious 914 enthusist and a board contributor as well as a part of the Exellence team. Please show some respect for him and others.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Sep 26 2005, 07:15 PM)

Right or wrong, this topic wasn't posted by someone trying to rip Pete off, or take advantage of him.  It was posted as a sharing of current info (a table of prices, overall a small part of the complete article), that may very well be far off track (reference the magazine to see the whole article).

actually, i thought people might go get the mag, or at least thumb through it next time they go the the rack. *I* didn't even post the actual info (although I considered it)!
if i was the editor, i'd be diggin' the 25+ extra copies sold and the 5+ additional subscriptions that'll come out of this thread, and grin.
"values" are just "numbers". anyone can take a stab at that. in fact if we had the interest, this club could become the definative source for valuation numbers if so inclined. (think then what we would do, share the info or hold it close?)
printed "words", "thoughts", ideas etc. are more tangible property. let's steer away from ripping that off and everyone's richer.
sound good?

I believe that either the poster or the admins should delete that image taken from Excellence. It is copyrighted material that is not in the public domain and it has been used without permission. Not only is it wrong, it puts this site and Sir Andy at risk.

Pete is a good friend and contributor to this site. We should respect him and the work that he does. Posting information such as this could result in fewer incremental newsstand sales for his magazine. I, for one, want Pete to sell as many magazines as possible.

Last month, when we were discussing the article that Eric Shea had written for Excellence, Pete said that it would be OK if we posted the article only after we waited two months.

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Sep 27 2005, 07:42 AM)

I agree with Miles.

A nd so began the fall of Rome.

OK OK...I've deleted the post, and to anyone who may feel ripped-off, endangered, insulted, or otherwise compromised by my transgression...my apology is sincere. This group has been so incredibly supportive and helpful to me in the past, I just jumped on an opportunity to contribute something you all were asking for without thinking of the consequences. It won't happen again.

Furthermore....I see scans of magazine articles, covers, and other people's photos all the time here. Maybe it would be good for someone with legal knowledge to post some guidelines regarding this sort of stuff. It honestly never occurred to me that I was crossing any lines. If the folks at Excellence are reading this, it would be helpful to get their take on it.

Copyright laws are not easily summarized. However, you can check out the Copyright Office FAQs

The position of Excellence magazine is pretty clear. From their masthead:

QUOTE

Copyright © 2005 by Ross Periodicals, Inc. All rights reserved. Reprinting, in whole or in part, is expressly forbidden except by written permission of the publisher.

QUOTE (goose2 @ Sep 27 2005, 08:29 AM)

Furthermore....I see scans of magazine articles, covers, and other people's photos all the time here. Maybe it would be good for someone with legal knowledge to post some guidelines regarding this sort of stuff. It honestly never occurred to me that I was crossing any lines. If the folks at Excellence are reading this, it would be helpful to get their take on it.

As Paul said, they're not easily summarized, but I'll try, anyway.

The copyright holder is granted the exclusive right to use the material they've copyrighted. If you ask for and are granted their permission, you can post the content. Copyrights last for a finite time. Originally, this was only a few years (17 years springs to mind). This has been extended over the years until it's now pretty much forever in the US (something like the lifetime of the copyright holder plus a good number of years). There is a out for "fair use", which allows copying. Exactly what constitutes "fair use" is highly debatable. If a student uses a copier at a library to take portions of a reference work for use in their scholarly pursuits, that's generally considered fair use. Copying the material, rebinding it, and selling it, is very much not fair use. Legally, posting the table on this board is murky. You (and no one else) is really gaining commercially from posting it.

My personal position is that for a publication like Excellence, which is readily available to members of this board, supports our hobby, and is the bread-and-butter for a board member, that being polite is much more important than being legal, so ask permission. Legally, you're on very thin ice posting it, non-commercial use or no, since you're depriving the copyright holder from sales (potentially). For material scanned from a 20-30 year old magazine you could only buy from a used bookstore or suchlike, if at all, I have no problem with posting. In the latter case, you're pretty safe legally. The copyright likely has expired, and even if it hasn't, no real harm is being done to the copyright holder, as they've long since realized all revenue from the material.

Children, Children, if I didn't know better it's like listening to diarrhea of the mouth Ray Naggin (mayor of New Orleans) & Kathleen Blanco (Gov. of Lousiana).

Get used to it 914's are growing in value!!!

Times are changing and general car collectors are accepting our cars. I predict the Porsche factory will soon give reference to 914's in future advertisements. It's comming. We have achieved collector status.

My 2-cents worth.
Tom
BTW
I had my car at a local gathering and offered $25K by a person who didn't want the hassle of fixing one up. He was a person who just wanted an old Porsche in his garage to impress the neighbors. It's For Sale @ $30K if anyone is interested.

Congratulations to Mark Hotchkis & Eric Madisen, they are doing their part for the 914 community.

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Sep 27 2005, 09:34 AM)

I had my car at a local gathering and offered $25K by a person who didn't want the hassle of fixing one up.  He was a person who just wanted an old Porsche in his garage to impress the neighbors.   It's For Sale @ $30K if anyone is interested.

would you take a post dated check

Alright, you guys ROCK!

I've been away from the for a while and it's just plain refreshing to see the enthusiasm, friendship, and respect this board has. For all the garbage people argue over, there's more camaraderie here than a lot of places in the Porsche world. And I am definitely feelin' the love...

As for the "Excellence" take on things, we probably won't go after someone for posting up some information taken from an article with attribution -- so long as it's not the ACTUAL content (or a large percentage of the content). For legal reasons -- and to protect us and our contributors against those who want to push the limits -- we have to retain the right to do so, however.

If we choose to give permission to publish it, then have at it! (We have in the past, mostly to club newsletters in need of content. All we asked for was attribution and the contributor's permission, too.)

And we certainly benefit from all the discussion here (so long as it doesn't get nasty) -- so for that I am always thankful.

Personally, I do hate it when people take someone's published, copyrighted stuff w/o permission and post it on the web. Just because an individual has decided to gift something to the Porsche community doesn't mean that those who make their living should be expected to. And, often enough, they usually DO give the rights when they're asked nicely. It's just that it's their livelihood, too.

As for supporting magazines, we don't deserve your support unless we earn it. Hopefully, a magazine does that through interesting articles, good reading, solid information, objective reporting, and useful advertising -- all for a reasonable price. It's a circle really -- the advertisers need a good vehicle that reaches their target market, the reader needs/wants information on what they're interested in, and we need both to survive (obviously).

All that crap aside, I've been grinning my way through this post.

The debate is a good one, and I too worry about 914 values going up. Hal Thoms, one of our staff photogs and an all around 356 NUT (!), used to have a Speedster. Then his kids went to school, so he sold it to finance their college educations (hard not to do when you need a $100K and that old car you've had for 30 years is just sitting there in the garage). I think that's awesome, but it also saddens me. He'll never be able to buy another one, and I can't imagine a better owner for that car. Sorta like I can't imagine "better" owners for 914s than the vrew here. There's such a diversity here, from high-school students to retirees to saints to hooligans to you name it. I doubt the same can be said for (most) 356 people these days. As the prices go up, the hardcore enthusiasts are often forced out -- along with some of the most colorful personalities.

On the other hand, it's refreshing to see the cars starting to get the credit that's always been due them but somehow never fully realized.

But, either way, to take my personal concerns into editing the book would be wrong.

As to the prices in the Market Updates, I'd say this is the part of the book that concerns me the most. They are NOT, according to Anderson, influenced by the Reader Sales Reports. The purpose of those is to act as a reality check to the statistics collected by Anderson from several sources. I should update what those are, as the used car and Porsche markets have changed a lot in the last 5 years or so.

The biggest challenges with market values for Porsches are the small sample sizes as well as national hot- and cold-spots for any given model -- as reflected by some of the posts above. We do our best, then see what the RSRs reflect.

Of course, someone with bad intentions can indeed skew the results, but that would be nearly impossible to police and paranoid to actually worry about on a large level...

Now watch me live to eat those words...

pete

P.S. Whew! Sorry for my (as-usual) long-ass post. I need an editor!

P. P.S. Perry, I would LOVE to see that Twin Trunks Tribune piece. My only copy is probably in the basement someplace in my parents house. But then maybe you SHOULDN'T post it. For it might SUCK!

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Sep 27 2005, 12:34 PM)

...  We have achieved collector status.  ...

... and the 2 coolest things about that are the incredible platform to work from, and this club.