I'm going
Alright, so say I were to get a Raby 2056 kit, and put 40 or 44mm Webers on it...

So then, what do I do about exhaust? I'm new to all this, so I don't understand the different types of exhaust. Headers? heat exchangers?
So What would work well for a 2056? I need something inexpensive

And for the heads. It says it comes with "Complete Super Stock remanufactured heads. 42x 36 valves oval exhaust ports, 96mm bore" , with the option to upgrade the heads to PORTED heads. Ok, so what's ported?

And for the ignition. I don't know where to even start on this. I assume whatever ignition setup I have now isn't going to work.

TIA. I'm trying to learn.

I would think weber 40's and SSI heat exchangers would work very well with Jake's setup and give you a very livable setup on the street that allows you to keep your heat. Upgrading the distributor to the mallory would probably be worth while considering the cost of the engine.

I'm sure others will chime in with other opinions and advice. It really isn't that much more expensive to step up to the 2270 and 44 webers, and you'll have a serious motor that others will envy.

Order the motor, talk with Jake, get your carbs and Distributor from him too. He'll get you hooked up. Price is good when you buy it all together too.

Initially I had hoped for a 2270, but with that I'd need a tangerine exhaust setup which is $1000+ . So the kit and just the exhaust would already have me well over 5k We're trying to keep it around 4.

Ok, so SSI heat exchangers. Whats SSI stand for? price range.. ? whats the diff. between HE's and headers?

SSI's are a factory style stainless steel heat exchanger, they typically run from $150-300 per set.

Heat exchangers are basically headers with the provision to run factory heat. Of course a racing style header will offer a bit more performance, but on a street driven 2056, I'd take heat and a much lower cost all day over 5 extra horsepower.

I definitely want heat. so does the heater fan thing in the engine compartment just blow air over the heat exchangers?

Hammy,
Things like this is the entire reason people buy from me.. For support and a project that can be accomplished with zero trial and error and guesswork.

The base engine the kit is derived from performed best with 44mm Webers with 32mm Venturis, 135 main jets, 200 air jets and 28degrees full advance and 12 degrees initial with a grey/grey curve. 40 webers can be used, with 34mm venturis but throttle response was lower and midrange power was as much as 5% lower, and efficiency dropped off.

As for exhaust, a set of S/S heater boxes and a Bursch will work fine for the kit- this is no super tuned engine, although it will make 125 HP easily. Basically anything BUT the stock exhaust will work OK with this kit.

As for the heads- Opt for the new castings with the port work, the efficiency of the engine is much better with them and the price is very favorable for a brand new pair of heads.

remember: I'm the guy that can help you and the guy you are paying to do so.. Lean on me, not the guys here on the board for making these decisions!

Here are a couple of power graphs from the 2056 base engines the kit was based from. The first one is with standard non ported heads and the second is with ported heads- note the differences across the board DO NOT LOOK AT ONLY PEAK HORSEPOWER!! You won't be using that unless you are constantly above 5252 RPM!

Non ported combo


Ported combo


The only difference between the two is a cam swap and the head swap.. Reliability, longevity and drivability are not compromised with the higher performance engine.. This is the same comboi that I just drove 1800+ miles with in my 912E and didn't even open the decklid to check the oil! I have been doing that with this engine for 86K miles, and only in 3 years!

Hi Hammy,

I was remembering what we talked about on the phone.

So I have few questions for you. The answers will help us all help you!!

What is the end result of this car?

a) Toy to have fun in and race an occasional AutoX?

Daily driver with great gas mileage?

c) Daily driver with lots of horsepower and OK - bad gas mileage? (like 13-18 MPG.)

d) Full blown ricer killer?

e) Do you want it to handle like a good stock 914?

f) Do you want it to handle like a very crisp street car?

g) Do you want it to handle like a like a F16 fighter on steroids?

h) Cosmetically, do you want it perfect or just pretty good or you don't care?

I) Do you need heat on your car? Lots a guys in Kali run with no heat. Therefore no heat Xchangers. Just headers and good muffler.

J) How much money are you setting aside for this build?

K) What are you starting with?
Is this a rust bucket or a perfect car or where in between?

L) How much time to you have to devote to this project?

I suggest you ask some knowledgeable members here on the forum to come over and look at what you have.
I always have another member look at my stuff for a second opinion before I start my projects (thanks Skline, Aaron, John and the guys at the cofffee shop).

The other way to do it is to simply trust Jake on the engine. (I would)
And blindly go forward with what you can afford like most of us. Time has no meaning in the 914 world.

Utter than that. I am here to help. Like I told ya on the phone. I don't know shit.
Thats why I ask questions and READ READ READ until I think i understand my next course of action ... Keep asking dude..

By the way... How old are you? Cause I sniff you are young and pretty dam smart...

Twystd1

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Sep 27 2005, 08:33 PM)

Hi Hammy, I was remembering what we talked about on the phone. So I have few questions for you. The answers will help us all help you!! What is the end result of this car? a) Toy to have fun in and race an occasional AutoX? Daily driver with great gas mileage? c) Daily driver with lots of horsepower and OK - bad gas mileage? (like 13-18 MPG.) d) Full blown ricer killer? e) Do you want it to handle like a good stock 914? f) Do you want it to handle like a very crisp street car? g) Do you want it to handle like a like a F16 fighter on steroids? h) Cosmetically, do you want it perfect or just pretty good or you don't care? I) Do you need heat on your car? Lots a guys in Kali run with no heat. Therefore no heat Xchangers. Just headers and good muffler. J) How much money are you setting aside for this build? K) What are you starting with? Is this a rust bucket or a perfect car or where in between? L) How much time to you have to devote to this project? I suggest you ask some knowledgeable members here on the forum to come over and look at what you have. I always have another member look at my stuff for a second opinion before I  start my projects (thanks Skline, Aaron, John and the guys at the cofffee shop). The other way to do it is to simply trust Jake on the engine. (I would) And blindly go forward with what you can afford like most of us. Time has no meaning in the 914 world. Utter than that. I am here to help. Like I told ya on the phone. I don't know shit. Thats why I ask questions and READ READ READ until I think i understand my next course of action ...  Keep asking dude.. By the way... How old are you? Cause I sniff you are young and pretty dam smart... Twystd1

Jake- thanks for the graphs and the info. And for the heads, as I'm trying to keep prices as low as I can, will the upgrade optional USED ported heads be a good choice? And yes I'm definitely leaning on you! I'm just trying to understand the basics.
What about service in those 86k miles? Is it any more service required than say a stock engine?

Clayton- Lots of questions! My end result for the car is probably a lot different than others. It'll be a daily driver, the car I drive to school once a week (home study), a RAIN car-I plan on weather-proofing the car as much as I can, the car I drive out on country twisty roads.. You know, that stuff. Maybe later in the future autocross, if I get the balls. And of course I'd love to show off the torque and outrun a few ricers once in a while, who wouldn't?

I want it to handle well, as well as it should stock-wise with a front swaybar later on. I'm not looking to have the best handling teener out there.

Cosmetically, well that's the least of my worries right now. My car has a badly dented up front bumper, different colored bumpers, small dings everywhere and a nice dent, desperate need of a repaint, ugly westerner wheels.

I need heat! The car is overall probably a C. Maybe a parts car to some down in LA. Driver's floor pan under seat needs replacing, bottom rear trunk too. Hell hole doesn't really seem that bad. Small hole in the engine shelf part. Who knows what i'll find when the engine is out. Longs seem real good too. Interior could be better.
trying to keep it around 4k for parts and everything, though I see it going higher.. thats ok. Time really isn't an issue, I'm willing to put time in it. I'm patient. I plan on just going with the flow, if I have a strict set plan then I'm going to end up disappointed, right?
You know a lot more than I know! I'm learning what i can, when I can. oh, and this may or may not surprise you but I'm 16.

Save a tad more money and get what you want... Otherwise you will NEVER be satisfied knowing it could be better..

As for service on my engine- It was built from 90% used parts 86K ago and has went up to 18K miles without an oil change AND I have not had to adjust a valve since February 2003! I have checked them every 6 months or so but have not needed to touch a single one yet... Keep in mind that I take this car to driver's ed and have put over 500 track miles on it at WOT above 5500RPM!

Longevity and reliability IS NOT IMPACTED by more performance as long as the mathmatics are closely adhered to- Its all in the combo!

This engine will last longer than stock, will run cooler than stock and will get equal or better MPG than stock- all while stretching out the RPM range to a more user friendly level and adding power in the upper midrange.

Making power doesn't kill the engine! (as long as you do it my way)
Hell, on the way through West Virginia I held near 90 MPH for over a solid hour+, it loves it.

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Sep 27 2005, 09:47 PM)

Save a tad more money and get what you want... Otherwise you will NEVER be satisfied knowing it could be better.. As for service on my engine- It was built from 90% used parts 86K ago and has went up to 18K miles without an oil change AND I have not had to adjust a valve since February 2003! I have checked them every 6 months or so but have not needed to touch a single one yet... Keep in mind that I take this car to driver's ed and have put over 500 track miles on it at WOT above 5500RPM! Longevity and reliability IS NOT IMPACTED by more performance as long as the mathmatics are closely adhered to- Its all in the combo! This engine will last longer than stock, will run cooler than stock and will get equal or better MPG than stock- all while stretching out the RPM range to a more user friendly level and adding power in the upper midrange. Making power doesn't kill the engine! (as long as you do it my way) Hell, on the way through West Virginia I held near 90 MPH for over a solid hour+, it loves it.

Sounds good.... after viewing the type 4 store and your other sites a whole bunch, I'm thinking - 2056 kit with pre-prepared engine kit assembly option, balance assembly option, and upgrade to ported heads (used?). Would it be a smart idea to add in an engine case for the pre-prepare stage? is a mallory dist. a much needed investment, or what i have now be fine?
and you said the camshaft in the kit is chosen according to what induction is used.. would the cam selection end up with any extra cost?

QUOTE (Hammy @ Sep 27 2005, 06:10 PM)

I'm new to all this, so I don't understand the different types of exhaust. Headers? heat exchangers?

Heat exchangers are the stock type of exhaust. They are essentially two pipes per side, with some metal wrapping around them. Cool air gets blown into one end of the wrapping by the engine cooling fan or the "heater blower" fan, and it gets warmed up by being in contact with the very hot exhaust pipes. It comes out the other side nicely warmed up, and the warm air either gets dumped out there (through the "flapper valves") or piped into the cabin, warming up your toes.

Headers are, usually in the context of a 914 discussion, a set of carefully designed and fabricated exhaust pipes that are intended for racing. They are generally "tuned" to take advantage of how the exhaust gases flow, and increase power or torque over some specific RPM bands. The good ones make noticeably more power than the stock-type exhaust. However, most of them have no provision whatsoever for heat--and the one that does isn't set up to provide that much heat it seems.

QUOTE

...with the option to upgrade the heads to PORTED heads. Ok, so what's ported?

It means someone has taken some grinding implements to the areas of the heads that lead up to the intake valve, and away from the exhaust valve. This can, if done right, increase the flow of the intake gases or exhaust gases through the motor, leading to more power.

--DD

I do not charge anything extra for the camshaft swap, its just a matter of changing the intake profile of thecam- no sweat.

The options you listed are really wise ones to choose.

Thanks DD. Can always expect a good technical explanation from you very helpful.
Jake, around what mpg could one expect from a 2056 with 44 Webers, non-spirited driving?

As much as 35 is very possible.. I have gotten up to 38

Holy balls.. I was thinking around 20.

Ok so i'm trying to get some confirmation here, will the used ported heads severely limit engine life as compared to choosing the new ported heads?

This engine is very efficient- as long as you get the tuning correct and keep your foot out of it big mileage is nothing new..

New heads are worth the cost, I am thinking of getting rid of the used ported heads all together....

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Sep 28 2005, 11:03 PM)

This engine is very efficient- as long as you get the tuning correct and keep your foot out of it big mileage is nothing new.. New heads are worth the cost, I am thinking of getting rid of the used ported heads all together....

used heads are crap

the old aluminum is cast and of impure quality.....

havent seem the new heads, but they seem like they would last a LOT longer.....

worth the money in my book......

b

Len and I hand pick the cores we use for these heads, and I have several hundred pair- But with all the work needed to rebuild them correctly it easily adds up to what we have in the new head castings... We still build the heads to our tolerances with all our developed parts, we throw the new stock parts away.

i've gotta see your engine room in closer detail...that guy, your assistant on the rebuilding the T4 DVD, said that you had like 300 t4 enignes as cores???


thats unbelieveable.....!



b

He's not my assistant in real life- just for the video...

300 was back then- I have closer to 500 now.... and know where 180 more are, but have no more room for them...

So Jake.. in your opinion, what would be best...

Upgrading to the new ported heads for me would mean elimating most of the other upgrades.

I'd like the ported heads, but I also want to add an engine case, mallory, pre-prepare assembly and balance. Using used ported heads with all these upgrades would still leave me in my price range. New heads totally brings me out.

Or to even upgrade the heads at all?

Thanks for the answers Hammy,

Now I think we all have a better idea of what you need.

I'll bet ya i can find you a used set of Bursch headers (not the heat exchangers) for almost NADA.

You will just have to blast them and give em some paint.

The Jake engine method is the ONLY way to go if you want the best. period.

As far as suspension... hang around here some more and let us know what your looking for.

I think a few really good deals will come your way.... Just trust the process my friend...

Check in with you later..

Twystd1

Hey Clayton.
Nada you say? hhmm.. I really do need heat, as it'll be my everything car, as well as winter car, I get cold easy but for nada.. depends what nada is.
Yep, I want the best, which is Jake. Wouldn't settle for less. And I'm going the whole engine first route on the car, so i'll have a driver while it's slowly being restored to how I want it... I'll worry about the suspension later on, when the time comes, that's a another whole different boat of confusion for me.

The only upgrades that you really need is the prep work. The balancing is included at a state that is more than sufficient for an engine of this tune. I would get the prep option and use the balancing money for the new heads..... Like I said, I will balance it to a level thats more than acceptable at no extra charge as a standard..

Thanks for the replies.
Alright, so adequate balancing is already done.. sounds good.
Does the prep work option require that you have an engine case? To be on the safe side, is it a good idea to add an engine case?

Also, I am still unsure about the mallory distributor option...

The prep work does not generally include work to your crankcase. For a 2056 kit the only prep the case would need would be drilled and tapped for galley plugs. If you send your case in I will do the galley plugs and inspect the case for 75.00 extra.

The prep work goes deep into detail, we build your rockers, fit and gap the rings, and much, much more..

As for the Mallory- It can be added any time... Spend the money you have now on internals, you can't do that later as easy as a dizzy swap...

90% of my customers worry about the small things too much and get ahead of themselves- buy the kit, get it assembled and take your time.. Then worry about topping it off, not now....

How are the SSI's better than stock heat exchangers? Just curious. I know you've done extensive dyno testing Jake, just wondered how the two different HE's dyno'd out.

The flanges on the SSI's are crap compared to the factory boxes, about 1/2 the thickness (or less), and I've never seen the bolt bosses come off the factory boxes, which isn't uncommon for the SSI's. Granted there's no excuse for over torqing the exhaust flange nuts, but you'll never deform the flanges or bosses on the factory heat exchangers.

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Sep 28 2005, 09:23 PM)

I'll bet ya i can find you a used set of Bursch headers (not the heat exchangers) for almost NADA.

I think you meant to say Bursch Muffler (not headers), the Bursch muffler bolts up to the heat exchangers....not to be confused with a real header.

Thanks Dominic...

I stand corrected..

Twystd1

Clayton, have any idea how the bursch muffler sounds? All my friends claim my current setup sounds like a lawnmower..
Thanks Jake, that makes me feel better... you're like my shrink now.
If I were to send you my case and pay for the inspection, if there were something to be "wrong" with it, could you "fix" it.. ameteur speaking here.

QUOTE (Hammy @ Sep 30 2005, 07:58 PM)

Clayton, have any idea how the bursch muffler sounds? All my friends claim my current setup sounds like a lawnmower.. Thanks Jake, that makes me feel better... you're like my shrink now. If I were to send you my case and pay for the inspection, if there were something to be "wrong" with it, could you "fix" it.. ameteur speaking here.

Bursch - pretty good sound. Single outlet.

If you are going to stay with stock HE's, id recommend a TRIAD muffler.
kick ass - dual out, sounds nice and quiet at idle, and like a small block at high rpms... VERY throaty....

The Bursch is cheap... Works OK, Sounds better than stock. And probably works a bit better than stock. Ask Jake if it gives you more power. he would know cause he has dyno'd them before.

The Triad that Aaron is talking about sounds Kewl.
The downside is that it is heavy.... it has three glass packs built into it's system.

I always try to stay away from adding un-needed weight to a teener.

We will find ya a busch when it is time... Just let the club know what you need and let us help you. This place is a family for some of us. We try help each other.

Twystd1

What are you talking about?

Twystd1

Sounds cool... yes, i'll worry about that when it's time...
hhmm.. looking on PP I also notice Sebring mufflers.. even cheaper Wonder if they sound like crap?

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Sep 30 2005, 11:02 PM)

The Bursch is cheap... Works OK, Sounds better than stock. And probably works a bit better than stock. Ask Jake if it gives you more power. he would know cause he has dyno'd them before.

Chris Foley told me that the Bursch give a minimal increase over the stock banana (minimal meaning maybe 2hp) They do sound better than stock IMHO, and mine definately doesn't shound like a lawnmower, its more like a v8 glasspack sound.

QUOTE

hhmm.. looking on PP I also notice Sebring mufflers.. even cheaper idea.gif Wonder if they sound like crap?

Go for a used bursch, its better, you don't really need new stuff (chances are any SSI HE's you get are used because they are $$$ new)

Just using the Bursch collector with a different muffler is a good idea. Or when your muffler goes bad replace it with a glass-pack (myself and another clubber have done this). Sounds good. Bring earplugs if standing behind the car at 4500rpms