What are the benefits of using 911/930 front suspension on a 914.
I have installed gas shocks, turbo tie rods but I have seen it recommended to use the 930 front suspension. Is this just to get the brakes or is this for struts/brakes/torsion bars?
If I upgrade the calipers and rotors will it be just as good as a complete swap?

Most guys do the 9eleben front end to get bigger brakes/vented rotors and 5 bolt wheels.
You can do strut only....which bolts to the 914 A arms (73 & later). You can use 911 A arms, which gives a wider selection of torsion bars. You can also use the aluminum
rack support from the 911...it all bolts in.

Caliper selection is very limited for the 914 struts. The caliper mount spacing is 3 inches. The 911 strut to caliper mounting is 3.5 in.

Early 911 struts have 3" caliper mount spacing as well

And I believe you can get torsionbars for the 914 a-arms up to 23mm

cheers,

Jeroen

IMHO.....swapping over to the 930 front end and parts are really only for very serious big track guys or for bragging rights

One positive of the the 930 front hubs is that the track is two inches wider due to the hub being of a different design....this way for guys running GT flares and 15x7 or 16x7 rims you can bring the wheel further out to increase the track and fill up the fender well without using spacers.

For your average Joe, regular 911 front suspension will be fine...if you want a little more, then get an SC or Carrera suspension...both of these also give you the option to easily upgrade to Big Reds or Monoblocks.

what size torsion bars come in oem 911 a arms? 21 mm?
thanks

19mm

question: I have 180 lb rear coil springs, rear oem sway bar, front oem sway bar, and am converting to 911 struts (I was told that the struts were out of a 1988 no a arms included.)

What size front torsion springs should I go with 21mm?

I think that I swapt out my oem's w/ a pair of used 18 or 19 mms about 6 yrs ago. Just trying to get a good balance. Were oem torsion springs for all 911's incl. 1988 19mm?

thanks, Pete

I converted my 71 914 to 911 a-arms, torsion bars, aluminum crossmember mainly for the sway bar which fits right onto the a-arms without drop links. This configuration really stabilized body roll and firmed up the ride.

For my 74, I'm going with a complete front end from an 88 Carrera including the struts, calipers, and vented rotors, 5-lug hub, aluminum crossmember, a-arms, torsion bars, and I may even use the steering rack.

Spoke

All 911's were 19mm
in fact its not even really a full 19mm
its actually like 18.8 or something (while the 914 bars are 17.9mm)

if you are not using the 911 A-arms then that means you are still using the 914 A-arms and thus the 18's (for example if your just changing struts)

I imagine some of the really special 911's might have come with bigger bars, the turbo's might have ? but otherwise all 911's were 19mm from 1965 until 1989

brant

OK Spoke, ya got me!! You are telling me that everything frontend wise from the 88 Carrera will BOLT IN????? Everything? Bolt in? HUH??

So for my 74 with a v8 I could ,in effect, go to junk yard, or someone else ,get this suspension and have it done for a weekend project??

Confused in Iraq

i concur with brant...

QUOTE

OK Spoke, ya got me!! You are telling me that everything frontend wise from the 88 Carrera will BOLT IN????? Everything? Bolt in? HUH??

yes. =-)

\see my progress thread on th elast few entires. same deal. '74 even. =-)

prolly swap in some new brake lines while it's apart. =-)

Pete,

19mm would be a good match for 180 rear springs.
measure what you already have.

if you in fact have 17.9 then consider upgrading to 911 A-arms and T-bars while you are there...

but even if you have the stock 17.9's then that is not bad with the 180's either.

brant

Brant,

Thanks for the advise on the 911 a arms.
What other benefit is there for going w/ 911 a arms w/ their stock 19 mm t bars

vs.

going w/ (let's say) 21 mm t bars for the oem 914 a arms?


note: I have compiled through hull sway bar assembly w/ all new bushings and hardware so I am not necessarilly looking to use an under body sway bar, although it seems easier to install.

I have not yet removed any of my front end yet and my used front "1988 strut assemblies" come this week. I don't plan on getting to this part of the project for atleast month or two so I have time.

thanks, pete

ok...
I'll take a crack at this.
bunch of random thoughts here"

911 A-arms offer no benefit in geometry or anything like that.
they are splined different (for 911 bars) and there may be a tiny bit more selection in bars of that spline.

overall, with either style of A-arm a through body anti-sway bar is going to give you better geometry than an underbody style. In fact for an all out track car you would really want to convert the late 911 A-arms to the through body style.

both style's used early ball joints prior to 72 and late ball joints post 72. Late ball joints are theoretically better, although you don't really hear of many failure with the early style either.

a 19mm torsion bar is a NICE spring rate for a street car and even track cars. A 21mm might be a tiny bit too stiff for 180lb springs, but if you have it then go ahead and give it a try.. (it shouldn't be too far off)

if I were in your shoes I would base my decision upon suspension bushing condition. if your 914 a-arm has already been upgraded or had bushings replaced that is not something you would want to have to repeat on the 911 style.

on the other hand, if the 911 style was cheap enough and had really good bushings in it (used) and your 914 ones were shot... then I would consider switching over.

brant

Brant,

thanks for the info!

I think that you have given me the info that I needed to make my decisions.

I will be inspecting and measuring my stuff over the next couple of weeks.

I cannot stress enough how appreciated your input is.

Pete

Brant,

Final front end suspension.

1988 struts

New pads, bearings, seals, and flex hoses

New Zimmerman cross drilled rotors. I am painting the rotor hats red.

1988 calipers rebuilt and painted red

koni adjustable red inserts new

197? 911 a arms w/ the old through body tabs for my oem through body sway bar.
- My car didn't come with one thus I will be installing that too.
- I kept the bushings and front and rear brackets from the 88' 911 a-arms as they were in much better shape. I don't like the poly or bronze? bushings as I personally find them to loud as far as transfering vibration.

I have 2 different through body sway bars one oem diameter and another a monster.

my old 74' 914 cross bar in great shape.

turbo tie rods

bump steer kit

all rusty old parts have been dropped off for bead blasting and powder coating in gloss black.

I will post pics when all is assembled.

Pete

sounds like you've worked your butt off...
thats a ton of work.

would love to see the pics when you get to it.

brant

Bolt on Army Dude, Bolt on.

Hey Eric!

I pressed in your hubs. They are ready to be put in as soon as the tub is ready that is. I got new koni reds for the back too. I also just ordered 140 lbs rear coils the other day per your advise. All should be assembled this summer.

thanks for the good work w/ the odd studs and all.

Oh and yes! i AGREE!

BOLT IT ON AND GOOOOOOOO!

Glad everything is working out...

When I bought my car back in 1989, the common wisdom to 914 suspension upgrades was to bolt on a 911 front suspension. So I bought a 911SC front suspension and bolted it to my car. The car was OK...not great, but OK.

A couple of years back, I met Rich Johnson and he provided a completely different wisdom about 914 front suspension. Rich indicated that the 911 front struts are not the best option for a 914 because you can only install inserts that are designed for 911 chassis dynamics. For example, a 911SC or late Carrera weight about 3000 pounds and has a very heavy rear end. True, for an additional cost, both Bilstein and Koni provide custom valving on their inserts to make it workable. Using these struts, however, you cannot buy off-the-shelf inserts that would be ideal for the 914 chassis dynamics.

The solution is therefore to use 914 OE struts and modify them with 3.5" spacing ears for the bigger brakes and install the necessary hardware to convert to 5 bolts wheels and 911 vented rotors. Using such modified struts you can therefore take advantage of the bigger and vented 911 brakes, use 5-bolt wheels and use off-the-shelf inserts (i.e. Bilstein or Koni) designed specifically for the 914 chassis dynamics.

Additionally, it is most likely that if these upgrades are performed on the front suspension, the rear suspension will also be modified. The performance rear suspension shocks available (i.e. Bilstein or Koni) are also designed to work in conjunction with the off-the-shelf inserts for the 914. That is, using front 911 inserts with rear 914 shocks results in a mismatch of suspension components. However, using 914 front inserts with 914 rear shocks you get components that were designed to work together in the 914 chassis.

Rich´s suspension wisdom made a lot of sense to me. Therefore, I traded my 911SC front struts for a set of modified 914 struts. The modifications inlude 3.5" spacing ears, and a raised (by 15mm from stock) spindler to lower the car. By the way, 15mm is the maximum allowable displacement on the spindler so the suspension fit perfectly inside my 15" five bolts Fuchs...you can do 17mm if using 16" wheels. I transferred all the hardware from my 911SC struts to the modified struts. These parts provided the five bolts conversion and the ability to install crossdrilled/slotted/vented 911 rotors. The 3.5" spacing ears on the struts allowed me to install 911S alloy calipers for a reduction of weight. Finally, I installed 914 adjustable yellow Konis on all four corners.

The car is no longer OK...it is great.

Did I make the right choice? I believe I did...

Which wisdom is the correct one? Do not use parts that were specifically designed to improve the handling of a 911 on your 914...

it's true. my new 911 front suspension is way stiffer than my old 914 suspension. it' didn't need to be any stiffer..... it was just right before. now i'm kinda worried.... time on the road will tell...

Rogger, you need some stiff rear suspension.. What are you going to use?

I needed 225lbs just to get by with a stock sway bar.. I got 275 a big bar up front, and I like control over oversteer without using my right foot.

This is a good thread and it is nice to read about Rich Johnson's knowledge regarding the 914 front end. When I build my 914-8, I used both the 914 front and the 911 front. The 914 front had 22mm torsion bars and 22mm Weltmeister sway bar; rear 180-200# Koni adjustable Gas with adjustable perch and no sway bar. Thus, I converted the entire front end to 911 with 19mm torsion bars and the 22mm Weltmeister sway bar. Through the body sway bar is the only way to go whether street or race; none in the rear if you do not have a posi- or locked rear.

Which was better? I kinda liked the 914 modified front, especially Rich Johnson's dropped front spindle and 3.5 conversion. The changes I went through above probably proved either is go for the street; racing I do not know since I do not race.

I am currently building a 914-6GT/916 Replica and I will use the 911 front end for a short time to get the entire car put together and running. Once I start tearing it apart for painting and modifications, I will probably go with Rich Johnson's mods to the 914 front. Somehow I like 22mm torsion bars since I seem to get a better feel for the road while driving the curves.

Thread has been most informative making sure I am thinking right.

Thanks
Steve Hurt

Did'nt the 1988 911 use servo brakes ? Are you changng your maste cylinder ?

Elephant racing has a great tool in their website to help set up the suspension. They provide different combinations of front/rear sway bars, torsion bars and rear springs for set ups ranging from street use to full racetrack cars.

Just check:

914 suspension setups...

These configurations, however, assume that you are using the correct damping (i.e. shocks) system in your car since the shocks they provide are the 914 units from Bilstein (Konis would be OK too). On a 914, it is easier to accomplish this by using OE struts.

i'm starting off with some 140lb coils, colemans, koni's on stiff, and no rear sway bar.

i'm also starting with no sway in front.

then i'm installing the front sway bar and testing...

i just want to get a good feel for what's over and understeer in this car.

it's a new relationship afterall....... going slow.... LOL

Can also check in here:

Struts spindler mods...

andyrew,

did u notice on elephants website that they suggest 140# rear coils for street/track 1, and 180# coils for street/track II?
and for their full race the don't suggest going over the 180#ers...

i guess we should be bumping it up a bit for the added weight?

225lbs...275lbs rear springs? On a lightweight car as the 914...isn´t that overkill?

Besides, I´ve always thought that rear springs and front torsion bars should go hand in hand for the suspension to work OK. I have always seen the combination of 23mm torsions to 180lbs springs. So for these bigger springs, what torsion is required? I´ve never seen torsions bigger than 23mm...

he has a V8 and wider rear tires...he's using the stiffer rear springs to get the rear of the car "upset" so that it is easier to swing around

What mike said.

Rogger, For about 300lbs more /2000lb car

on a stock car about 120lbs in the back feels about neutral.. i do believe. little calculation says 140's should feel the same...

but the center of gravity is higher, and gives it a bigger upset... Also your fat tires on the back and 225's on the front will make quick steering, but understeering... I then would assume you would need about 2-5lbs more per 10mm of tire.. just a guess though.. that given, 225-295 is 70/5 is 14-40.. so 165 progressives might give a nice ride for no sway bar up front? 180's with a sway bar, and up...

I guess we'll see, wont we.

As far as my car, 180's were not cutting it with 22mm T bars and a stock front (on the track, it was quite neutral, but I was too scared of the car to push it)
I have a freeking huge sway bar with adustability for the front, and 275's in the back with 285 tires in the back and 255 tires up front... I think it just might work.

Andrew

Good thread.

Did the 911 strut housing itself change at some point?

I agree with the idea that a 911 valved front strut is not going to work well on the front of a 914. first there is the obvious weight bias difference and then there is a weight difference which varies with the year of the 911 in question.

However, I was able to put my 914 Koni yellow struts directly into '71 911T Boge front struts without a problem. Since the early 911 front struts also have 3" spacing on the caliper mounts the struts appear to be identical except for the spindle itself.

What am I missing?

Kelly

QUOTE

What am I missing?

Nothing. You're spot on.

It's simple, use the 914 inserts... the only issue is when you go to 3.5" Koni or Bilstein struts. Even then, I'd say the 914 valved insert would be less expensive than a 914 strut with the 3" to 3.5 Mods or brackets (because you're only going to 3.5 to use an A/S-Caliper or larger).

I'm not buying the modified 914 strut thingy... what about the spindle? Ricky, you're saying on Rich's car he's using 914 struts? Did he weld a 911 spindle on there as well? Or... is he using adapters or drilled 914 rotors...? I don't think so. A 914 strut with a 911 spindle welded to it is a 911 strut. There's too much to be changed vs. simply installing a 914 insert or a 914 valved insert in a 911 strut.

A 914-6 used a 911 strut. I owned one. The ride isn't harsh. It's exactly like a stock 914. For that strut you can get stock 914-6 Boges, 914 Konis or 914 Bilsteins...

Please explain...

Koni Inserts P/N

914/914-6 8641-1077
911 75-89 (Boge strut) 8641-1039
911 75-89 (Koni strut) 86-1942
911 65-68 (Koni strut) 86-1308
911 65-68 (Boge strut) 86-1394
911 69-74 (Koni strut) 86-1638
911 69-74 Boge strut) 86-1647

The sport version is only available for 914´s and 911´s 75-89 w/Boge strut. P/N is the same as above with an "S" at the end.

No 911 inserts share the same P/N as the 914 insert. Maybe they are the same physically, and the differences are in the valving. Any ideas?

Furthermore, 914 inserts have the exact same price as 911 75-89 (Boge struts) inserts. Both in sports and HD versions.

These numbers I got from Paragon Products website.

QUOTE

Therefore, I traded my 911SC front struts for a set of modified 914 struts. The modifications inlude 3.5" spacing ears, and a raised (by 15mm from stock) spindler to lower the car. By the way, 15mm is the maximum allowable displacement on the spindler so the suspension fit perfectly inside my 15" five bolts Fuchs...you can do 17mm if using 16" wheels.

Again, something's missing here. I 'think' you have modified 911 'Boge' struts. The 911 spindle being the key. You would need the much thicker 911 spindle to put the 5-lug goodies on this strut. Otherwise... too much effort to simply make the equivalent of a 911 'Boge' strut.

(18mm is the highest you can go with 15" wheels BTW... both cars are sitting in the garage with the wheels on them)

Maybe you could have Rich clarify... I don't want to mislead people.

QUOTE

914/914-6 8641-1077

Well... there ya go. You successfully found an 'off the shelf' 914 Koni insert that will fit a 911 strut. Not a 911 Koni strut or a 911 Bilstein strut but this will fit the most common 911 strut, the Boge.

QUOTE

I'm not buying the modified 914 strut thingy... what about the spindle? Ricky, you're saying on Rich's car he's using 914 struts? Did he weld a 911 spindle on there as well? Or... is he using adapters or drilled 914 rotors...? I don't think so. A 914 strut with a 911 spindle welded to it is a 911 strut. There's too much to be changed vs. simply installing a 914 insert or a 914 valved insert in a 911 strut.

Eric,

I have a 914 Boge strut with 3.5" ears, with a 15mm raised spindler. Installed on my struts are all the pieces from my previous 911SC front suspension. These include 911SC vented rotors that I bought from performancerotors.com. These are not drilled rotors...and no adapters were used. I bought Koni´s P/N 8641-1077S which is the correct P/N for 914/914-6.

If you say that the 914-6 strut is identical to the 911 (any year?) strut, and, according to Koni´s P/N, 914-6 and 914 use the same insert, then the 914 insert should fit the 911 (any year?) strut. Right??

QUOTE

The sport version is only available for 914´s and 911´s 75-89 w/Boge strut. P/N is the same as above with an "S" at the end.

Wait... you found two off the shelf Koni 914 inserts that fit a 911 strut. That's all they make isn't it? Standard and Sport?

So... you buy a 911 front end and put 914 inserts in it. It doesn't ride any harsher than any other 914.

QUOTE

(18mm is the highest you can go with 15" wheels BTW... both cars are sitting in the garage with the wheels on them)

You are correct on this...my typo. From RennsportSystems.com:

The spindle height limit is determined by the choice of wheel diameters. 15" wheels allow no more than 18mm change in spindle height due to ball joint interference with the inside rim. Using larger wheels will allow higher spindle heights.

Checked my e-mail´s...my spindlers were raised by 17mm.

QUOTE

Again, something's missing here. I 'think' you have modified 911 'Boge' struts. The 911 spindle being the key. You would need the much thicker 911 spindle to put the 5-lug goodies on this strut. Otherwise... too much effort to simply make the equivalent of a 911 'Boge' strut.

Eric,

This is the text from Rich´s email when we were talking about doing these mods:

"We will use the "A" spindles I have with a 914 Boge tube. In this combination you can use the 914 Koni Sport insert for proper valveing range and still raise the spindles. I have good luck setting the spindle height at 17mm for 15" wheels and 19mm for 16s and above."


However, the 911SC front suspension I had was with the Bilstein struts. Perhaps this is why it could not be used if I intended to use the 914 Koni inserts.

QUOTE

I have a 914 Boge strut with 3.5" ears, with a 15mm raised spindler.

It's a spindle.

QUOTE

Installed on my struts are all the pieces from my previous 911SC front suspension. These include 911SC vented rotors that I bought from performancerotors.com. These are not drilled rotors...and no adapters were used.

Sorry... you can't install 'all the pieces from your previous 911SC front suspension' on a 914 strut. The spindles are not the same size... UNLESS, they have some custom bearings to adapt. So let me get this straight:

Cut spindle off SC struts - $
Raise and Weld Spindle on 914 strut - $?

-or-

Custom bearings - $?
Cut and Raise spindle - $?
Mounting ear modification - $?

-vs.-

Custom valved inserts?

It doesn't add up, especially when you'll basically have a 911 Boge strut with 3.5" ears when you're finished.

QUOTE

I bought Koni´s P/N 8641-1077S which is the correct P/N for 914/914-6.

Those will drop right in the most common 911 'Boge' strut. Says so right in your description (914-6).

QUOTE

If you say that the 914-6 strut is identical to the 911 (any year?) strut, and, according to Koni´s P/N, 914-6 and 914 use the same insert, then the 914 insert should fit the 911 (any year?) strut. Right??

I didn't say 'any year'. There are roughly 4 different 911 struts. Correct?:

Boge - Most Common (takes 914 inserts)
Koni - On many 911S models (special valved insert)
Bilstein - On many 911S models (special valved insert) and
Hydronumatic (sic) - Option on 911E models (you don't want...)

In saying your 914 insert would fit 'any' strut, that would be misleading. Just like saying that 911 struts make a 914 ride harsh. A 911 'insert' in a 911 strut may make for a harsh ride.

The 914-6 strut is a 911 'Boge' strut from the same era. A 914 insert should fit any 'Boge' threaded strut... yes.

So... I say:

Buy a 911 front suspension, if that's what you want. Drop some 914 inserts in it and go, go, go... If you're going the serious 3.5" (Koni/Bilstein) route then it's still cheaper and easier to get custom valved inserts than it is to have all the chopping and welding done. Chris Foley charges $225.00 for the spindle operation alone. Then you've got to modify the ears...

Fill me in. How did you get a 911 hub on a 914 spindle?

QUOTE

Cut spindle off SC struts - $ Raise and Weld Spindle on 914 strut - $?

This is what was done....

QUOTE

"We will use the "A" spindles I have with a 914 Boge tube. In this combination you can use the 914 Koni Sport insert for proper valveing range and still raise the spindles. I have good luck setting the spindle height at 17mm for 15" wheels and 19mm for 16s and above."

Now it's beginning to make sense. He welds the entire 911 spindle on a 914 strut.

Ricky, this is still a 'LOT' of work when:

1.) Most narrow body cars will 'never' need anything more than an M-Caliper hence a 3" 911 'Boge' front end.

2.) The cost of the mods should well exceed the cost of specially valved inserts for your original front end.

I think what you have is a neat setup. I also think you're misleading people when you say a 911 front end makes a 914 ride harsh. It's simply not true. For me, custom valved Koni's are a much more viable and much less expensive alternative.

Thanks for clarifying.

My head hurts with all this. When I start this mod I will have this printed out to read over and over and over...... Or I will just send it to somebody to do it for me. Anybody want to adopt my projrct??

QUOTE

I think what you have is a neat setup. I also think you're misleading people when you say a 911 front end makes a 914 ride harsh. It's simply not true. For me, custom valved Koni's are a much more viable and much less expensive alternative

Eric,

Thanks about the neat setup comment.

I am sorry if I was misunderstood. All along I was trying to send the message that the off-the-shelf 911 INSERTS are not ideal for 914´s. This is very true.

Isn´t it also misleading to say that a 911 front end swap is just a bolt-on upgrade? This statement sounds to me that you swap the front end, and that´s it. Most buyers will buy these expensive complete front suspension setups expecting a plug and play improvements in the handling qualities of the car, when actually dampers from another car with very different characteristic has been introduced. When I originally did the swap I felt let down because I did not feel an improvement in handling and actually got an uncomfortable ride.

I think most people that would install a 911 front end will either keep whatever inserts came with the suspension, or buy the direct replacement for model and year 911 the suspension came from, again thinking that this is an improvement in suspension and ride characteristics. I did. It is great information to know that the 914 insert directly fits inside the 911 Boge strut, honestly, this I did not know.

After all this interchange, however, I would recommend anyone contemplating this upgrade to avoid 911 suspension setups with Koni or Bilstein struts. I myself made the mistake of buying a 911SC setup with Bilstein struts just because I did not know.

When thinking about these upgrades, I also investigated the valving of the Bilstein inserts in my 911SC front end because at the time I had sports Bilstein rear shocks, however, there was a long wait for this process, I had to provide the parameters for the revalving (which I did not know...again before 914world.com days), and set the car on jackstands while it was done. I chose the easiest route, and the one that would get me where I wanted.

Rich did all that work for about $750 plus my SC strut cores. A complete 911 front end, I been reading in this forum, goes for about $1200, so pricewise is about the same. Of course, when I started all this I already owned a complete 911 front end...i.e. brakes, calipers, 5-bolt conversion pieces, etc.; I guess these parts will have to be considered in the pricing of the final product. The cost of these components in used condition, however, is affordable...I just sold a pair of recently rebuilt SC calipers in the classifieds for $150. But if the intend is to lower the car also by displacing the spindle (I got it right this time), then this is not so outrageous.

When I replaced the Bilstein 911SC inserts with the Koni 914 inserts, there was a lot of improvement in ride quality and the handling of the car.

QUOTE

1.) Most narrow body cars will 'never' need anything more than an M-Caliper hence a 3" 911 'Boge' front end.

Eric,

About three weeks ago I sent you an e-mail because I was considering upgrading my rear brakes to 911 calipers, and ask you about the e-brake setup that you sell.

My current brake configuration is 911S alloy front calipers, OE 914 rear calipers with spacers, steel braided lines, 19mm master cylinder, and vented/crossdrilled/slotted 911 rotors on all four wheels.

At that time you told me my braking was about right and that I should not change it. Your quoted comment says that my front brake setup is probably overkill since I have a narrow car.

Are my front brakes too much for what I have in the rear? How to balance it?

Thanks Ricky for the explanation.

Again, as evident with our new Friend 'Army Dude', I think you're causing a lot of unnecessary confusion.

Folks, 911 front suspension components will simply bolt on a 914. It is 'highly' advisable to get 914 inserts for your 911 front end. To take it further:

For narrow body 914's, I like what the factory used:

69-73 911T front suspension - These were generally set up for through body sway bars. They have 3" mounting ears for 911 M-Calipers Which are all you will need with the tire packages that can fit under the narrow bodied car. These will accept 'any' 914 strut out there (Boge, Koni, Bilstein, KYB, etc.)

For wide body 914's, I like what the factory used:

67-73 911S (Koni or Bilstein) front suspension - As above but are set up for 3.5" caliper mounts (A or S-Calipers). These calipers are good for much larger tire contact patches and are better suited for HP up to 240-250. With these you will have to special order custom valved inserts.

QUOTE

All along I was trying to send the message that the off-the-shelf 911 INSERTS are not ideal for 914´s. This is very true.

Hmmmm... that's not what you said here:

QUOTE

911 front struts are not the best option for a 914 because you can only install inserts that are designed for 911 chassis dynamics

Regarding the INSERT statement, for the most part. Keep in mind, you experienced "Bilsteins" valved for a VERY heavy late model 911SC. I believe a set of Koni's for an early 911 turned full soft (where I keep all my Koni's) would be 'fairly' indistinguishable. Bilsteins are great shocks but they are a set-em and forget-em 'Sport' shock. For that reason alone, I like Koni's.

QUOTE

Isn’t it also misleading to say that a 911 front end swap is just a bolt-on upgrade? This statement sounds to me that you swap the front end, and that’s it.

The front suspensions are virtually identical in their form and function. I don't think most buyers buy these expecting plug and play improvements. I think they want 5-lug hubs and possibly bigger brakes. I agree, there's probably a large contingent that just swap them out and call it a day, but, I think there's an equally large contingent that know what's going on with inserts... you simply don't run 911SC Bilstein inserts on a 914 (as you now know).

QUOTE

After all this interchange, however, I would recommend anyone contemplating this upgrade to avoid 911 suspension setups with Koni or Bilstein struts. I myself made the mistake of buying a 911SC setup with Bilstein struts just because I did not know.

This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. What you bought was an SC front end. I don't think the purchase was a mistake. I think leaving the 'ultra-wrong' 911SC Bilstein inserts in there was a mistake (as you yourself attest to). For 1/2 the money spent on 914 strut and spindle mods you could have had the proper inserts to slide into your struts.

This is also where I think it becomes misleading. For people who want or need 3.5" brake spacing, these Koni or Bilstein front ends are a 'very' viable solution. These struts (struts only) can be purchased for $250-$300 a 'pair' all day long. Complete 911 front ends go for anywhere from $200-$600... not $1,200, hell, you can buy a sawzall roller SC on the birdie board for $3k, why would anyone pay $1,200 for the front suspension. Someone recently asked about a front end from Oklahoma Foreign at the wonderful $1,200 price and the replies came back unanimous "RUN AWAY".

QUOTE

I chose the easiest route, and the one that would get me where I wanted.

Again, I don't want to belabor or nit-pick but I think the easiest route would be to buy some revalved inserts for 1/2 the cost. You chose a route that got you what you wanted. Here's some real world cost examples that should be fairly easy to beat:

Yours with the cost of struts thrown in:
Labor $750
SC strut cores $250
Total $1,000

-vs.-

911T Struts $250
Your 914 inserts $free
Total $250

-or-

911T front end $400
Your 914 inserts $free
Total $400

-or-

911T Struts $250
Koni 914 inserts $275
Total $525

-or-

911T front end $400
Koni 914 inserts $275
Total $675

-or-

SC Struts $250
Proper Inserts $350
Total $600

-or-

SC Struts $250
Proper Inserts $350
Chris Foley Raises the Spindle $225
Total $825

QUOTE

When I replaced the Bilstein 911SC inserts with the Koni 914 inserts, there was a lot of improvement in ride quality and the handling of the car.

Ya think I really think this is the issue here Ricky. People need to understand that you had a bad experience using Bilstein 911SC inserts on your 914. I would add… of course you did.

Again, Ricky, not bashing you... to 'me', your previous posts are extremely misleading. They read like "If you bolt a 911 front end on your teener you'll have a harsh ride". I agree wholeheartedly that the inserts should match the car not the strut, so, if this thread will help more people understand that then it's a good thing. I already had someone PM me last night worried about buying a 914 now that has a 911 front end on it... this is the wrong message to send.

I also think that 80% of the people out there can find some 911T struts and bolt them on their car for less than 1/2 what you paid (maybe even 1/4) and have all the benefits they might be looking for (5-lug, vented rotors, m-calipers, cheaper rotors, larger spindles, beefier bearings).

On to your brake question:

Your A-Calipers up front are overkill but the “system” you have with the T-fitting and the vented rear calipers should be “OK”. You are seriously on the edge of what I would call too little rear brake but that’s much better than too much rear brake.

Options:

* Keep your eye out for a set of –6 calipers.
* Watch for Marty’s “Spot-Caliper” to hit the market and then move to 911 rear M-Calipers.
* Perform the 911 hand-brake conversion (whew… find cables, find early hand-brake assemblies, grind, etc.)

I would keep what you have and have a friend video tape some parking lot stops. See if your rears are even in the game. You’ll want them to lock up after the fronts for sure.

(that's the end of my new, New Testament... I promise)