guiltless
Oct 5 2005, 02:38 PM
I have seen a few different ways to run hoses on a car that is using a front mount radiator.
I really have no desire to run copper piping through the cab of the car so that is out of the question.
I have also seen alot of people running the rubber hoses under the car and down the center. I am sure that it is a great way, but it scares me a bit, especicaly when speed bumps come around.
Is it possible to run the hoses through the center channel of the car?
dmenche914
Oct 5 2005, 02:52 PM
No way any cooling hoses would fit int he center tunnel, plus you have a moving shift rod to contend with, too tight. What alot of folks do is run metal pipes under the car on each side of the center tunnel (there is a depression in the floor pan underside on both sides of the tunnel. i have seen galvanized pipe used, maybe it was 1 1/2 inch diameter i think, and i have also seen flat rectangular steeel tubing used, with the ends tappered to a round pipe to allow the hoses to clamp on. these metal pipes will tuck intot he depression, they stick down a little bit, but you basically are hitting bottom anyway by the time you hit the pipes. By using steel, you will not crush them, and be fine (copper would more likely dent or crush).
Do NOT run rubber hoses under the car, as hitting them with somthing sharp will rip them. good rubber hose is more money per foot than steel pipe, it will need to be replaced form aging if not torn first, and the steel pipe will aid cooling as it will radiate much more heat than a rubber hose.
Never run rubber hoses in the cockpit, like mine were thru the heater pipes, and up behind the speaker grills. A leaky hose burned my foot, hot anti freeze is not to be in the cockpit in a rubber hose unless you can complety shield the folks inside from a pressurized leak spraying out.
i really think under the car, down the middle on either side of the tunnel using steel round or rectangular tubing is the best bet. The rectangular is more money and work, but will gain you maybe 1/2 inch more ground clearance, but either are very good options.
guiltless
Oct 5 2005, 02:57 PM
That is EXACTLY what I was looking for.
Thank you very much.
Crazyhippy
Oct 5 2005, 03:02 PM
I ve driven 35-40 converted cars w/ hoses under the car, and never had a problem cutting them. I have had cars go off track into the baren desert (right rear blowout
) hitting rocks and all kinds of stuff, and not cut a hose.
I have also seen motors overheat severly due to running steel pipe under the car, bottoming on a speedbump (i think he drove off a curb backing out of the driveway) and partially crushing the pipe.
If you use pipe, be sure it is strong enough to support the weight of the car, rubber hoses bounce back, steel pipes do not.
dmenche914
Oct 5 2005, 03:56 PM
i agree, the tubing to use is thick walled, do not use thin walled stuff like electrical conduit, use plumbing pipe, steel, not cast iron.
banksyinoz
Oct 5 2005, 06:00 PM
the previouse owner of my 914 has installed a heater in the front and run the hoses through the sill panels its only 1-1/12in plenty of room
Q; when running pipes under the car where do u enter the pipes into front compartment /under tank or through holes infront of the suspension?
914GT
Oct 5 2005, 06:43 PM
3/4" steel pipe (common black pipe) fits nicely underneath if you want to take the time to bend it so it conforms to the indentations running under the center of the car. It will not crush and I routinely use my floor jack to raise the car under the pipes. I put a short length of 2" square steel tubing to distribute the weight across both pipes. The pipe is bent to aim up into the bottom of the front trunk and can be cut off right under the steering rack. From there you can transition to 1" ID rubber heater hose (Gates or equiv.) to the radiator. The bottom cover under the rack is notched in two places to clearance the pipe.
banksyinoz
Oct 5 2005, 07:15 PM
thanks now the water pump front or back cut the front and im done there
banksyinoz
Oct 5 2005, 07:57 PM
forget that pic i worked it out i think
tyler
Oct 6 2005, 01:00 PM
Lot's of opinions on this. For my 2 cents, I'm just finishing up my system. I used marine exhaust hose, with wire, under the car. It's expensive, but, it's got a nice lining, bends without flatening and I don't think anything ever hitting under the car would cut through it. I ran one piece all the way for both of them - no joints anywhere. On entering the front compartment I have the hoses passing through copper sweat fittings to hold them at 90 degrees against the gas tank bulkhead. Using a Griffin radiator it even cools fine (190) with only one of the 2 pusher fans running. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.
Just a slight setback - the radiator was "seeping" about a tablespoon every 1 hour run, so I just pulled it and sent it back to Griffin. We'll see if they live up to their good reputation.
tyler
Oct 6 2005, 01:15 PM
Found some pics of the hoses. This is prior to installing the inlet shrouding & cover plate..........
tyler
Oct 6 2005, 01:17 PM
My mistake - old pic - try this one............
tyler
Oct 6 2005, 01:20 PM
and this.................
tyler
Oct 6 2005, 01:21 PM
and this...........
tyler
Oct 6 2005, 01:21 PM
and this...............
tyler
Oct 6 2005, 01:22 PM
well, maybe this one (rushing too much)...........
jsteele22
Oct 6 2005, 03:46 PM
QUOTE (dmenche914 @ Oct 5 2005, 01:52 PM) |
Never run rubber hoses in the cockpit, like mine were thru the heater pipes, and up behind the speaker grills. A leaky hose burned my foot, hot anti freeze is not to be in the cockpit in a rubber hose unless you can complety shield the folks inside from a pressurized leak spraying out. |
Excellent point. I've been starting to think about plumbing in heat , and was thinking of heat as a luxury, not a hazard !
guiltless
Oct 7 2005, 01:08 AM
Tyler, is that a hole in the front of the car to allow airflow? I was wondering if that could/should be done.
What do other people think about cutting there? It looks like an important support place for the car, but I could be wrong if people are cutting it away.
tyler
Oct 7 2005, 07:56 AM
Yes, that's the air inlet which now has ducting to the fans, an air scoop and a protective screen. I really wanted to have an inlet in the middle of the bumper, where the license plate goes so the air would go straight in but that's not an easy cut. As it turns out, cooling works fine the way it is.
marks914
Oct 7 2005, 09:59 AM
I didnt know Griffin made a dual pass radiator. Was it pricey? I am interested to know how well it works.
Mark
tyler
Oct 11 2005, 01:06 PM
I searched around alot trying to find the best radiator and was almost going with a new 944 aluminum one by the "questionable" guy on Ebay. But found the Griffin 27 1/2" x 15 1/2" aluminum racing radiator - 2 rows of 1" tubes. This fits perfect, heightwise. So far it seems to cool great, that's probably why I can get away with pushers (2400cfm) and only normally run one of them. I'm still waiting to hear from Griffin about the "seepage".
tyler
Oct 11 2005, 01:07 PM
Cost was about $275
banksyinoz
Oct 12 2005, 03:57 AM
nice setup tyler
would it be possible to see a pic of the front of ur car i am yet to cut my hole in the front ?
i also used my spare bonnet to cut the hole in the top just incase it was a disaster i saw it done on a race car over there and thought the downforce would be nice to have
the bonnet still shuts with all this in there also
tyler
Oct 12 2005, 12:55 PM
As soon as I get the radiator back and in I'll post a good set of pics. I have to be able to get it out in the sun. I'm in the process of mounting the inflatable spare against the fuel tank bulkhead while I'm waiting fot the radiator to be returned.
dbledsoe
Oct 12 2005, 03:22 PM
QUOTE (marks914 @ Oct 7 2005, 09:59 AM) |
I didnt know Griffin made a dual pass radiator. Was it pricey? I am interested to know how well it works.
Mark |
Griffin 27 1/2 x 15 1/2 radiator with two rows of 1" tubing for $189.95 from Summit Racing. I bought the Griffin 27 1/2 x 15 1/2 radiator with two rows of 1 1/4" tubing for $259.95 from Summit. I wanted to be doubly sure I didn't have any cooling problems.
914GT
Oct 12 2005, 04:23 PM
I believe that's a dual core radiator, vs. a dual pass. A dual pass flows to one end then back, so the inlet and outlet are on the same side of the radiator.
dbledsoe
Oct 12 2005, 04:35 PM
QUOTE (914GT @ Oct 12 2005, 04:23 PM) |
I believe that's a dual core radiator, vs. a dual pass. A dual pass flows to one end then back, so the inlet and outlet are on the same side of the radiator. |
Guy,
Thanks for the clarification. Is there a cooling advantage to the dual pass style? I believe that is the style (dual pass) that Renegade uses?
Thanks,
Don
914GT
Oct 12 2005, 04:57 PM
Don, supposedly they are more efficient. How much so I do not know and I have not seen actual data to support that claim.
dakotaewing
Oct 12 2005, 05:11 PM
Don,
Can you tell us where you found the fan set-up and shroud on your system ?
TIA
dbledsoe
Oct 13 2005, 09:30 AM
QUOTE (dakotaewing @ Oct 12 2005, 05:11 PM) |
Don, Can you tell us where you found the fan set-up and shroud on your system ?
TIA |
dakotaewing,
I bought the fan and shrowd setup from Summit Racing (http://www.summitracing.com). They are made by Flex-a-lite and are their model #FLX-310. Cost was $219.88 plus shipping. The fan came with everything needed for installation to a radiator including an adjustable thermostat. You can buy the same set of fans/shrowd minus the adjustable thermostat for $189.88 (model # FLX-320), also from Summit. I liked the idea of an adjustable thermostat so spent the extra for it. The whole kit seems quite well built and was easy to install.
I hope that helps.
Don
dbledsoe
Oct 13 2005, 09:36 AM
dakotaewing,
Here's another picture of the fans/shrowd from a different angle.
effutuo101
Oct 13 2005, 09:42 AM
I helped a friend on his V8 914. He used braided stainless steel rubber hydraulic lines. He was also using the depressions under the car. It had the strength and would handle a couple of hits under the car.
dakotaewing
Oct 13 2005, 09:46 AM
Don -
Thanks for the details - I spent quite a bit of tme last night looking on summits website at all the different radiators and fan setups... Some of the dual fan setups are stated to have a 50 amp draw! Anyone using one of those better have a good altenator!!
Thanks again -
Thom
dakotaewing
Oct 13 2005, 10:00 AM
Tyler -
Do you happen to have the model # on your radiator? From the pics it looks as if your radiator does not have a cap, similar to the Ron Davis units built for renegade... Please elaberate on why you are using the pushers instead of the pullers, and let us know how many miles you have on this system -
Thanks -
Thom
tyler
Oct 13 2005, 01:30 PM
I didn't see a model number on their site but I'll take a look at my reciept tonight. Griffin furnished it with 1-1/4 & 1" conns (same as the hose), also a bungs for a drain, temp switch and vent (at the top). I don't know why there should be a fill cap when the fill really belongs at the high point where the hose comes from the tstat at the engine. The vent conn on the radiator works fine for the initial fill and if you use the filler tank from RH with an expansion tank, air in the system will always bleed out. Also my radiator would never have fit with that fill cap. The one in the other picture must not be the exact same size as mine. I have a set of pullers (from a 944, with shroud) and they worked great but I wanted to save space (for spare tire) so I tried those cheap (~$75ea) pushers and they seem to work fine. My mistake was that I should have gotten a second bung on the radiator so I could have the second fan come on automatically at a much higher temp instead of manual, but I never expected one fan to do the job. I'm still working on the system so it's new but I've run it on 90 degree days for ~60+ freeway miles + traffic stop and go and it never gets above 195. There's been some talk about the temp gage fluctuations (including from me) and I found that the temp does bounce back and forth with the tstat opening and closing until the whole system/engine gets up to temp then it's real steady. I was worried about blocking air with the pushers but they never even come on on the freeway so the radiator must be good.
914GT
Oct 13 2005, 01:35 PM
I was getting temperature gauge variations in the first 15 min. or so until I moved the sender from the head to the top of the intake. That's helped a lot to buffer some of the changes during engine warmup.
andys
Oct 13 2005, 01:52 PM
I got my dual row, dual pass radiator (pic below) with cap delete from AFCO, #10133N. The dual pass costs a little more than the single pass. Their single pass is the same price as Summits'. AFCO is also a good source for spings and misc racing stuff with very reasonable prices, IMO. They manufacture most of their products.
Andy
andys
Oct 13 2005, 01:54 PM
Oops, sorry for the jumbo sized pic!!!
Andys
dbledsoe
Oct 13 2005, 01:56 PM
Tyler,
My radiator is the same size as yours but it is installed at an angle so the fill cap clears fine. If I had tried to install it straight up I don't think it wouldn't have cleared the hood. In this picture you can better see the angle of installation.
dakotaewing
Oct 13 2005, 03:30 PM
Tyler -
Did you order your radiator directly fom Griffin? I did not even check to see if they had a web site, I was too busy looking on Summits and JEGS sites....
Thom
tyler
Oct 14 2005, 12:44 PM
Yes, I ordered directly from Griffin and they do have a website. I looked at that AFCO, which I think is actually 80133N, but it's 16" high and I didn't think it would fit in the vertical position. Now I realize it might fit if the reinforcing under the hood is cut but I prefered not to do that. I couldn't find anything to fit any better that that Griffin - I even had to cut away metal above the a-frames, put in some pretty thin silicone padding and slightly bend down the aluminum rib on the top to be able to close the hood.
Andyrew
Oct 14 2005, 01:07 PM
Im running a griffin as well. A little larger than most of your though.
Its a single pass.
Notice both of you dont have shrouding to the radiator....
Is there a reason?
914GT
Oct 14 2005, 01:58 PM
I bet Don can get away without a fan shroud considering his V6 and living in Idaho. But for a V8 and hotter climates the shroud is probably going to be necessary.
andys
Oct 14 2005, 02:26 PM
QUOTE (tyler @ Oct 14 2005, 10:44 AM) |
Yes, I ordered directly from Griffin and they do have a website. I looked at that AFCO, which I think is actually 80133N, but it's 16" high and I didn't think it would fit in the vertical position. Now I realize it might fit if the reinforcing under the hood is cut but I prefered not to do that. I couldn't find anything to fit any better that that Griffin - I even had to cut away metal above the a-frames, put in some pretty thin silicone padding and slightly bend down the aluminum rib on the top to be able to close the hood. |
Tyler,
You're right, it's an 80133N. I didn't need to cut any hood bracing when I tipped it slightly forward. Here's a pic of it in place with partially completed ducting to vent through the hood. Ducting now has a flange on top for 1" foam rubber to seal against underside of hood.
Andys
dbledsoe
Oct 14 2005, 02:34 PM
QUOTE (Andyrew @ Oct 14 2005, 01:07 PM) |
Im running a griffin as well. A little larger than most of your though.
Its a single pass.
Notice both of you dont have shrouding to the radiator....
Is there a reason? |
Andy,
I haven't built my shrouding yet to seal the radiator and direct flow in and out (and prevent recirculation) because my install is very new and, since I'm approaching winter here in the northwest, its not a high priority until late spring. I do plan to install shrouding before then.
Don
andys
Oct 14 2005, 02:46 PM
QUOTE (Andyrew @ Oct 14 2005, 11:07 AM) |
Notice both of you dont have shrouding to the radiator....
Is there a reason? |
With regard to mine, it's not fully complete.........Shrouding TO the radiator is definately planned.
Andys
dakotaewing
Oct 14 2005, 03:34 PM
Andys - Did you get your fan set up and shroud from AFCO as well???
Your set up looks pretty clean...
Thom
dakotaewing
Oct 16 2005, 09:35 AM
andys
Oct 16 2005, 12:22 PM
QUOTE (dakotaewing @ Oct 14 2005, 01:34 PM) |
Andys - Did you get your fan set up and shroud from AFCO as well??? Your set up looks pretty clean...
Thom |
Thom,
I made the shoud. In the below pic, notice the (orange)flappers that allow additional air to pass at speed. The fans are made by Zirgo. You can buy directly from them....Don't have the site handy, but it's probably zirgo.com. For shroud and fan assemblies that you can purchase, I have some info at the office I'll post tomorrow.
Andys
dakotaewing
Oct 19 2005, 01:07 PM
Andy -
Thanks for the great info - What did it take tool wise in order for you to make your shroud? TIG, brake press, etc.?
I also wanted to ask you if you removed the horizontal support at the front of the car, right below the latch ? it looks like that is the case in the photos above...
Thom
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