Been a frustrating day. I'd say I feel like a little girl but the ladies on the board would probably come up and kick my butt for it!

I can't get this puppy to start. It was running well when I put it away so I haven't been too concerned about timing - won't change with age. I did take the dizzy out to check the trigger points but I thought I had it marked pretty well and returned to the same spot. At least close enough to try. Well the try failed so I'm going back to basics and do a static timing. I spent over an hour looking for the bloody tdc notch but no luck what so ever. I think any paint that might have been there is long gone but there should be the scribe mark right? My son was turning the engine with the wheel and was having real difficulty being smooth as we got into the area where we expected to find it(rotor pointing at the #1 tower notch). It could be that it jumped by so fast that I missed it. I do spot the fat web as we approach. That is right around the 27degree mark right? Haynes shows the tdc as being between the 4th and 5th web past there. Could any one confirm that is accurate and not just artistic license?

A second thing that is really bugging me. We used quick start spray to attempt the start. Not even a cough. But at one point we got a backfire through the intake. That has me worried. Assuming that the timing is close and that my checking and double checking of the firing order is correct, how could a cold engine backfire like that? The only thing I can think of is a stuck intake valve which would not be any fun at all. The engine does turn smoothly - no scary noises or anything.

I am confused. I have only removed the dizzy by removing the mounting block, and it just goes back in.. if you do it that way..

Re-index? heh... The Cap'n will be 'long.. showtly.

Backfire UP just means that the timing is off far enough forward to throw explosive gas in the wrong direction, and that you have a bunch of starting fluid in your chamber. (I'll bet)




M

It is I, The Cap'n, shortly. Forget the position of the rotor. Turn the motor over until you see the notch, which is an inch and some, toward the right side of the car, from the thick rib. Remember there are 4 thick ribs, so ya gotta get the right one. Look for the mark on the side nearest the engine, not the painted side. Remember, too, that the mark indicates TDC for both one and three. Once you've found that, lift out the distributor and look at the slot on the drive gear. For it to be on TDC #1, the narrow half of the drive will be on the side nearest the passenger side of the car. If the wide side is there, you should be on #3. Of course, this assumes the person last into the engine did it right. Reinstall the distributor and line up the notch with the center of the brass tip of the rotor.

BTW, using "starter fluid", typically something with ether in it, is generally a BAD thing, even for a diesel.

Next time, use the 13mm nut that holds the clamp to the case, and be careful not to drop the spring washer into the hole.

The Cap'n

SPRING WASHER?

QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Oct 8 2005, 03:51 PM)

Look for the mark on the side nearest the engine, not the painted side.

Crap! That would explain it. Ya gotta be a bloody pretzel to see that side. Maybe young son will do the looking and I'll do the turning

So what's the deal with starter fluid on a cold engine? What other options are there to start a loose engine (been through this before when it had been garaged for a year). I've read on other threads obout 'miracle oil' but I can't find hits through google.

I'll go through your procedure on monday - off to gramma's house for thanksgiving tomorrow. Also thanks for the hint on how to remove the dizzy without mucking up the timing - next time I do it right!

chopstick in the spark plug hole.... LOL

(THE ABOVE METHOD IS NOT CONSIDERED SAFE BY ANY MEANS. IF YOU USE THIS METHOD AND FRACTURE A CHOPSTICK IN YOUR CUMBUSTION CHAMBER.... WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE)

no problem with the chopstick fracture. At the rate I'm going it would be compost before I get the thing started.

Distributor driveshafts can be installed incorrectly... I would, instead of looking at the position of the driveshaft, look at the valves to determine if I were on TDC #1 or TDC #3. If you're on #1, both valves on the #1 cylinder will be closed, and both rocker arms should have some slack. If you're on #3, then both of those rocker arms should have some slack.

Most stock flywheels also have a notch in them. The catch is that it would be visible through the upper notch in the bellhousing on TDC#1/#3, which is a bear to get a look through.

Oh, and you can get similar symptoms (massive backfire) if you hook up the spark plug wires incorrectly. Say, if you swap #1 and #2 wires...

--DD

Thanks for the help guys. The weather in our area has been dismal for the last week so I haven't had much chance to progress things. Got some time on the car on sunday and went through the Cap'n process. Made sense - straight forward. As I removed the dizzy I kinda took note of the position. I think that I had it in without the tabs in the slots - looked to be way off. I put it back in making sure that it seated and locked brought it back to the index position and voila - there were the scribe marks and the paint for both TDC and 27degrees. Got the static timing done (estimated 5 degrees from the PP template). I'm now ready to have another go at it but need to charge the battery and check a few more things. Next weekend will probably be my last kick at it for this year. The warm weather is pretty much done for this year and the garage is too small and unheated. Really wanted to get that thing to cough this season. If no luck this weekend I think I'll commit to dropping the engine for over the winter and really go over it.

Dave, I hear what you are saying about the possibility of the distributor drive shaft being in wrong. The engine was rebuilt a long time back with new P&C's but I have no reason to suspect it. Just to be safe though I'll see if I can get some new gaskets and pop off the rocker covers.

A question. How do you get at that 13mm nut that holds the adjusting collar on. It is right under the vacuum advance so you couldn't use a socket. And there doesn't seem to be enough room to get a spanner on it. What am I missing?

Some people can seem to get a wrench on it with no problems. I have to loosen the clamp nut (the really loooooooong 10mm nut) and crank the distributor as far around as it will go. Then I can just barely get a socket on the mounting nut.

--DD

If you are having problem getting the valve covers off to see which valves are closed/open. Just refer to the other thread on this page.

So it sounds like there's some history behind the chopstick comment; can anybody fill us newer folks in ?

As for the technique, that's basically what I did. Couldn't find any paint marks on the impeller (this thread has inspired me to try once more, but three times already I've convinced myself that there's no damn marks on that thing...). So I jacked up one rear wheel, put car in 5th, removed plugs. Just putting your finger on the spark plug hole gives pretty good feedback to get close. Then I put a pencil (couldn't find a chopstick...) in the hole and turned wheel slowly. Its pretty easy to feel the very top. Oh, and I removed the pencil when I was done.

I put a mark on the impeller with liquid paper (others have mentioned nail polish, which sounds better). And I used the PP template to make a 27 degree mark. That's a pretty tricky operation working through that view port, but I feel like I got pretty close.


Anyway, sounds like you've got past this point. Hope she cranks for you.

QUOTE (jsteele22 @ Oct 19 2005, 10:18 AM)

So it sounds like there's some history behind the chopstick comment; can anybody fill us newer folks in ?

Here's the thread on the chopstick fiasco.....

Chopstick Link


Enjoy.....

I think that just about sums it up. Oh one more because that wound might be healing up a little

QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Oct 19 2005, 09:23 AM)

QUOTE (jsteele22 @ Oct 19 2005, 10:18 AM) So it sounds like there's some history behind the chopstick comment; can anybody fill us newer folks in ? Here's the thread on the chopstick fiasco..... Chopstick Link Enjoy.....

Thanks,

A nice read. I wasn't sure how much to laugh, given the seriousness of it all. Glad it worked out well for opera_guy. Man, I don't know what I would have done ! Probably, in order :

1) blowing + suction
2) 10 hours of wire/tape gymnastics
3) propane torch
4) acetone (but what about gaskets/seals ?)
5) fire her up
6) rebuild again
7) find TDC from dizzy

I think someone needs to make a bolt-on degreed wheel

QUOTE (Brando @ Oct 19 2005, 10:37 AM)

I think someone needs to make a bolt-on degreed wheel

That can be seen without doing the "monkey boy" Kamasutra manuever in the engine bay.

Go steal one off a type 4 bus engine then that bolts to the front of the fan housing. Its marked in degrees, the early ones (72-74) are white and easy to read using a mirror shoved in front of the engine bay.
Print out the PP article on timing the engine as it has a gauge to lay on the fan to make the proper marks.