Okay, I'll admit here for the whole world to laugh at me....the thought of building my nickies-cylinder, ceramic-lifter, 94mm-bore, 78mm-stroke motor is making my stomach turn...I am not quite at the point of getting an ulcer, but that could be around the corner when I start to lay out everything on my workbench.

The thought of building it and screwing it up and tossing thousands of dollars down the drain has worried me so much that I am "thisssssss" close to selling it all and buying a running watercooled conversion engine that I could more or less consider "disposable"

I know it may sound funny, but doing a conversion seems "easy" compared to building an engine. With the conversion, you can run it for a few years and if you pick the correct (popular) engine, if anything happens to it, you just go down on to eBay and grab another for <$1000.....unbolt the bad one, install a new one and away you go.

I'm not dissing the /4 motor at all, it's just my luck is terrible, I've been attepting to get my CNC running for about a year now and it's one thing or another....man, just writing this post has me popping TUMS to calm my nerves

take a chil pill and do it....

after all...its just money

the good news is that you can always RE-do it. if you build a grenade, then you can always take it apart, replace a few parts, slap it back together and try again. really, that's the worst case scenario.

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 10 2005, 10:45 AM)

The thought of building it and screwing it up and tossing thousands of dollars down the drain has worried me so much that I am "thisssssss" close to selling it all and buying a running watercooled conversion engine that I could more or less consider "disposable"

We want to see that thing running!

I know you can do it.

i feel for ya 'cause i'm in about the same place. i've only built "3" motors and i'm doing a self-education with HUGE assistance from 914club.

my first motor was my 81 Vanagon. dropped a valve seat and it was either dump the car (NO WAY!) or get off my ass and rebuild the motor. so, the first was all the way down to the crank. the car is now in Utah with my son in SLC.

i liked the experience so much i looked around for another type IV and found a 74 2L. this time i went down to the short block... apologies to Jake et al for not doing it the right way.... but i wanted to get it on the road ASAP. it really didn't matter too much, the buyer of the car had a problem not related to my rebuilding the motor.

so then, i found my 1.8. down to the short block (sorry again Jake) but it had 60k on it and again, to get a return on my purchase, i wanted to get it on the road and it is and runs pretty good if i do say so myself.

that's "3"....

but the motor in my avatar is now a longblock for another car with a track motor. i'm not on the track ....perhaps YET... so the motor is euro d-jet.

I kow you are hearing this in your head, given the number of other people working on these conversions....


SUUUUUUUBAAAAAAARUUUUUU


Just think. 170 HP for little money. 100k miles between timing belts, 200k or more between engine replacements. All kinds of aftermarket add ons... And for wht you have invested in your engine rebuild you could have pretty much everything you need to do the conversion.

But its not air cooled. And air cooled is just sooooooo totally awesome.
-Tony

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 10 2005, 11:45 AM)

the thought of building my nickies-cylinder, ceramic-lifter, 94mm-bore, 78mm-stroke motor is making my stomach turn...

hey Mü, call me.

i've got a few good spare parts from my soon to be paperweight 2.1L "Bad Boy™" ...
Andy

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Oct 10 2005, 12:08 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 10 2005, 11:45 AM) the thought of building my nickies-cylinder, ceramic-lifter, 94mm-bore, 78mm-stroke motor is making my stomach turn... hey Mü, call me. i've got a few good spare parts from my soon to be paperweight 2.1L "Bad Boy™" ... Andy

Geez, it's been 25 years since my first Vdub motor build. Yikes. How old am I???

I don't know about anyone else but I sleep better knowing those bearing clearances and head torque sequences are right.

I say offer a good engine builder friend good coffee and a BBQ rib dinner or two and start building that thing.

It takes me too damn long to do the simple stuff because I have to go over and over the details.

I wonder if this worth a new post to find someone who's fresh up on building an air-cooled motor?

I'd do it... with Jakes video.

You'll be fine if you keep the coffee away from it.

Dave

QUOTE (DNHunt @ Oct 10 2005, 12:38 PM)

You'll be fine if you keep the coffee away from it. Dave

Mueller- So NOW we know why you haven't finished a damn project!! LOL

Seriously- You can't be afraid of it.. Its only a machine thats certainly not smarter than any human..

With that being said when I first started playing with engines, as a newbie I was too dumb and young to be afraid of anything. I just bolted them together and if it blew all to hell I'd grab some more junk and do the same thing all over again.. That kept on until I got the money to buy real parts and by that time I had already learned alot of the tricks to make new parts live.

I learned that EXPERIENCE IS PARAMOUNT! Making something with half assed, used parts and making it live is much more of an accomplishment than bolting new shiny parts together- thats why most of my personal engines are built with stuff thats "Recycled" even still today...

Do I still get nervous?? Yes. Actually every time I fire an engine up that chill comes up the spine and its the same one I got the very first time i built an engine that would actually fire up and run... I swear it hasn't changed a bit. These days it takes a lot more to make me nervous, but I actually won't fire it up until the moment feels right, if its a "Super Hero" ... The 3 Liter sat on the dyno for 2 days before I threw the switch because "I wasn't nervous enough"... being nervous makes me work better most of the time because I like pressure- bnut everyone is different.

This is one main reason I created my kits and the subsequent support that they include. The kit being "My way"makes it very easy for me to help those who purchase them and without the kit, or if the customer changes one component I simply can't be of assistance. I created the engine kit program to make it easier to build your own Jake inspired TIV engine and for those who utilize my direction and don't argue it works flawlessly..

In the recent past (last week) I HAD to inflate the cost of the kits because "Too much hand holding" was needed by the assemblers. I CANNOT DO IT FOR THEM! (and if I have to on the phone its 85.00 per hour)

Now, with all that being said I have sold 63 kits since February. I know of at least 35 of them that have been fired up already and no one had any issues so far. (if they have they didn't tell me) and about 85% of these were 2270 engines and larger.

FWIW- 6 years ago I sold a kit to a 15 year old (this was long before I had the program sorted as well as it is now) this 15 year old had no Dad to help him and he wanted to build an engine for his beetle for his first car. He really wanted a 2270 kit from me but I insisted that he start with a 2056(easier)- he didn't listen and bought the 2270 anyway...... He finsihed it with 3 phone calls to me, fired it up and drove it away.. That same kid just wrote me a letter last week saying the car has provided him with transportation for the last 5 years while in college and he has driven it cross country 7 times.....

Thats right, he did it at the age of 15 without a damn bit of help and its still alive.. if he can do it anyone can.

Its not a human and any mistake you make can be remedied- so bolt her up and fire it off...... If it blows all to hell, welcome to the club because you are well on the way to being an engine builder.... An engine builder that hasn't had failures has not built enough engines!

The school of experience has a very expensive tuition- I could have paid for 5 degrees for what I have spent on broken parts, but I wouldn't trade it for 5 degrees....

Here are my recommendations for you....

Clean yourself a spotless assembly area in the garage... Turn the radio off and lock yourself in and take plenty of junk food with you. DO NOT let your buddies come over and peer over your shoulder and break your concentration! Sit down and figure things out.. layall the parts out in the order that you think they belong in and assemble them basically in that order... This is only after you have gotten used to the area and where all your tools are- if you have to move more than 2 steps to grab any tool your work area is not efficient and it will scatter your brain later!

When you get to this point with no distractions and all the parts in place and all the tools within arms reach you are in a "Performance mindset" and you can actually get something done..

I have been known to give Brent 3-4 days off at a time and basically close the doors, pull the shades, rip the phones off the wall and lock the gates just to get to this mindset before because I KNOW if I'm not in that state I WILL make a mistake... BTW an airmattress should be used when sleeping on concrete floors, take it from me...

Now Git R Done!

Mike,

Don't let $$ spook you.
Apply your good engineering/design sense and you'll do fine.
Just watch out for dropping little things (nuts,washers) into where little things shouldn't be (crankcase).

Sorry we couldn't talk longer last Saturday.

Marty

Piece O' cake...

I had to learn how to rebuild VW engines when I was a poor college student. Had money for parts, none for the mechanic.

Blocks are pretty simple, head work should go to a pro unless you are adventuresome or know what you are doing.

Head volume, and valve train setup are the hardest parts the first few times. Cylinders and pistons will be beautifully done by L&N so you shouldn't worry about crap parts there. Take your time, trial fit, measure, assemble and dissasemble. Watch Jakes video if you haven't done one before. Buy Jakes parts for security.

It's quite a feeling when you finally put gas in the tank, do a little prayer and turn that key.....

Urrr.. Urrr.. Urr.. Brmmmmmmm.

And find out you haven't lost your touch...

Then comes that heart stoppping moment when you notice all the smoke from the engine area....

And then realize it's not burning oil but paint off the exhaust....

Do the break in, change the oil, and go for a drive. Your face will hurt from the smiles....

Ken

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 10 2005, 12:49 PM)

.. if he can do it anyone can.

To paraphrase Groucho Marx - 'Quick get me a 15 year old... I can't make head nor tail of this'

Richard

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 10 2005, 11:45 AM)

I am not quite at the point of getting an ulcer, but that could be around the corner when I start to lay out everything on my workbench.

I'M IN THE SAME BOAT!

I have parts neatly arranged on a table in my living room. I was excited about everything that came out, until I came across a weird rhomboid spacer and a bag of bolts. Not being able to mentally place each bolt on the motor made me realize how much I don't know.

Oh well. I just need to take it one assembly at a time and not be afraid to ask stupid questions.

The only time the sweat rolls down the crack of my ass is when I light one off for the first time...it's exciting.... but to get there, you *gotta get it done*. It's almost as much fun as the first time the power of the new motor blows you sideways (or backwards), but *you gotta get it done*, eh?

YOU MUST BE INSANE.. or you wouldn't be here.

Mike, you take ideas, and run with them... you start out with a curve in your head, and the next thing you know, it's machined..

PLEASE! Your problem, is my problem... the hardest part of anything is starting. I defeat myself a thousand times, then I get off my lazy 'I need a helping hand' ass, and get dirty.



Tolerances should be one of your stronger points... best I can tell, you have 1082% of the know-how.


M

The first engine I ever rebuilt (Yamaha RD400 engine) blew up (and made me crash) shortly thereafter. I rebuilt it again, and it had all kinds of wonderful problems from an air leak (like running at 8000rpm with the ignition shut off), so I had to rebuild it a third time.

The most recent major surgery I've done to an engine was replacing the head gasket on a '64 A-Series. I'd never done one before, but had it done in an afternoon, with zero problems afterwards.

20 years passed between those two jobs, with lots of experience gained.

A friend of mine once classified himself as a "parts assembler" rather than a "mechanic". In his eyes, there was a huge difference between the two, where the mechanic could figure out exactly what to do to fix something, as well as actually do it. Just assembling parts he didn't consider too big a deal, so long as you knew which parts to use. On the Type IV, rocker geometry is the only thing that appears to be at all tricky to do.

Work don't make me nervous------re-work is the one I have little tolerence for....

john

See the engine; be the engine

cleanliness, measurement, cleanliness, measurement......it'll fly!!!

Which degrees?

do it........ .


I understand the feeling for sure, but I figure that I'll never learn if I don't try so i'm gona build a bad ass motor too ! (some day )
Eric


Oh and don't forget some of the best advice I got on this board.

"haste makes waste" - Jake Raby

Be careful and you'll be fine

Mike, tell me when and I'll be there for moral support. You can do it, no problem.

I rebuilt my first car engine at 12. It was in my sister's 69 Impala. She blew it up coming home from spring break in Fla and kept driving it. My dad had to work, so I took on the project. I am not a big guy, and at 12 I could not pull the torque wrench hard enough to torque the heads!!! But that engine was still running 5 years later when the frame collapsed around the jack stand during a brake job.


I have been building engines ever since. First "performance" motor I built I scattered all over the highway at speed.

Finally got that motor strong and went throught 14 automatics and 4 maunal transmissions before I built one strong enough for it.



Three pieces of advice.

RTFM!!! (Read the fine manual. Read it again.

Measure everything multiple times.

Keep everything scruplously clean.


Holler if you need help!!

I feel like I am laying on the couch at councelling

rebuilt my '63 beetle at 15

my '79 bus at 22

And now my 914 at 47

Throw in a couple of Fiats, 302 and 351 fords, 455 GTO .060 over, 327 chev with D port vet heads.....

not a big deal.

QUOTE (olav @ Oct 10 2005, 03:48 PM)

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 10 2005, 11:49 AM) The school of experience has a very expensive tuition- I could have paid for 5 degrees for what I have spent on broken parts, but I wouldn't trade it for 5 degrees.... Which degrees?

i'm wondering that one too.

The only part that phases me is the thought of broken/stripped bolts.

That's why I have two 2.7 engines ... to wake me from a restful sleep.

Eddie

I remember being in the same space you are at a while back.

I was putting together a twin turbo all billet block, heads, crank, EVERYTHNG BILLET, twin turbo, injected, Ryan Falconer based engine for a 55 chevy that a very rich guy had me build for him.

The engine combo had never been done before. The heads were twin cam billet heads. I didn't even know if this combo would work..

I sat around in fear for a month before i grabbed my balls and started to put the engine together. I was scared that I was about to make a 22 thousand dollar mistake and kill my credibilty with my self and my client.

I learned a very valuable lesson in that build.....

The most important part of the puzzle was that I had to learn to trust myself.. Because I didn't trust my ability to handle this high end, nats ass perfect, style of engine building.

Yet I knew that if I left it sitting there in parts.. i would never learn a lesson.

it's all about the journey... it ain't about the engine....

Doesn't matter if ya do a Suby or a SBC or a type 4,

Just do something and learn the lessons that you need to learn...

Twystd1

Come on Mikey. You know you can do it. Frankly I'm surprised that you doubt yourself in this endeavor.

Just do it...

Yep.. "Haste makes waste" is one of my personal favorites..

"If you don't think you can do it- You are right."

Come on- don't worry the worst it can do is explode.... and since its only money and more can be made don't sweat it, have a good time and don't worry.

Now, you see I have a different set of parameters and issues to play with... A reputation and the fact that I'm spending other people's money.... The stress is absolutely incredible, you can't even imagine.

The ones that really put me to the test more than all the others are engines like Racer Chris and Tom Burdge- the guys that'll be in front of thousands of people and on television at the runoffs.... If something explodes everyone knows it...

As my engine projects get wilder, crazier and more expensive it amazes me that the failure rate is so low to be honest... 2006 will be wildest year yet- I have 7 builds that will cost more than 24K each and one that will approach 40K... Try taking a 40K engine to 8500 RPM on the dyno!

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Oct 10 2005, 03:28 PM)

The first engine I ever rebuilt (Yamaha RD400 engine) blew up (and made me crash) shortly thereafter. I rebuilt it again, and it had all kinds of wonderful problems from an air leak (like running at 8000rpm with the ignition shut off), so I had to rebuild it a third time. The most recent major surgery I've done to an engine was replacing the head gasket on a '64 A-Series. I'd never done one before, but had it done in an afternoon, with zero problems afterwards. 20 years passed between those two jobs, with lots of experience gained. A friend of mine once classified himself as a "parts assembler" rather than a "mechanic". In his eyes, there was a huge difference between the two, where the mechanic could figure out exactly what to do to fix something, as well as actually do it. Just assembling parts he didn't consider too big a deal, so long as you knew which parts to use. On the Type IV, rocker geometry is the only thing that appears to be at all tricky to do.

James, you still have your RD 400?

Still have mine:

Daytona Special

Big Bore Kit, IT 175 pistons, 432 cc

RZ 350 Reed Valves

34 mm Mikinuis

Then, I upgraded to a RZ 500 V4 Watercooled 2-Stroke

"Hijack Over"

Mike, have a engine building BBQ, if you cook I'am sure they will come (Engine Builders)

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Oct 10 2005, 11:37 AM)

I'd do it... with Jakes video.

[QUOTE]

And
Tom Wilson's: " How to Rebuild Your Volkwagen Air-Cooled Engine"
AND
George Hussey: "700 Tech Tips"
AND
Brian Long's: "Porsche 914 914/6"
And
Keith Seume: "Aircooled VW Engine interchange Manual"
And
Haynes Manual: "914 4 cylinder-1970-76"
And
$1300 worth of part and machine work!
NO problem

QUOTE (McMark @ Oct 10 2005, 06:13 PM)

Mike, tell me when and I'll be there for moral support.  You can do it, no problem.

Hey Mikey,

Count me in on that one. I'll be glad to lend a clean helping hand... Armed with lint free rags and brakleen. =-)

This last engine I had the crank out three times and the pistons/rods out about 5 times for rod side clearancing. No one said it wil be easy, but it is going to be SO worth it.

QUOTE (V6914 @ Oct 10 2005, 07:34 PM)

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Oct 10 2005, 03:28 PM) The first engine I ever rebuilt (Yamaha RD400 engine) blew up (and made me crash) shortly thereafter.  I rebuilt it again, and it had all kinds of wonderful problems from an air leak (like running at 8000rpm with the ignition shut off), so I had to rebuild it a third time. The most recent major surgery I've done to an engine was replacing the head gasket on a '64 A-Series.  I'd never done one before, but had it done in an afternoon, with zero problems afterwards. 20 years passed between those two jobs, with lots of experience gained. A friend of mine once classified himself as a "parts assembler" rather than a "mechanic".  In his eyes, there was a huge difference between the two, where the mechanic could figure out exactly what to do to fix something, as well as actually do it.   Just assembling parts he didn't consider too big a deal, so long as you knew which parts to use.  On the Type IV, rocker geometry is the only thing that appears to be at all tricky to do. James, you still have your RD 400? Still have mine: Daytona Special Big Bore Kit, IT 175 pistons, 432 cc RZ 350 Reed Valves 34 mm Mikinuis Then, I upgraded to a RZ 500 V4 Watercooled 2-Stroke "Hijack Over" Mike, have a engine building BBQ, if you cook I'am sure they will come (Engine Builders)

No. I bought it one fall (heavily used), rebuilt it 3 times, crashed it once, and sold it by early the next summer.

Yeah... I had the RD.... Then the TZ... Then the RZ four banger...

Got the RZ from Canada cause they didn't have em here at the time...

Wicked little engine.....

Let's see... How mant times did I blow those engines up from being too lean and on the ragged edge of tune????????

Don't wanna remember.....

Twystd1

My first ride on an Eddie Lawson Signature RZ 350 with intake and exhaust. (An old girl friends bike)

That thing wanted to get up on one wheel in the first three gears with no clutch popping. Just rolling it on.

Done.

There's a saying about Fear.
False
Emotions
Appearing
Real

And the way to address it is to face them. But I totally understand where you are at. I was petrified when I rebult my first motor. I acutally tore apart 3 engines before I ever built one. But I followed the directions, checked my work, and had it checked by others. I have now rebuilt close to a dozen Subaru engines and even have started doing some custom stuff on them. Now many of the local Subby guys come to me to do it for them. I just make sure they participate so that they get over their fear and know that next time they can do it themselves.

My 914 2.0 will be my first type IV rebuild. I definitely have some fear around it. But I am just going to roll up my sleeves and dive in. Afterall, there is that other old saying," It's only money"...

Is it fear if you're just procrastinating?

thanks all.....

QUOTE

Is it fear if you're just procrastinating?

it's taken me over 2 years to buy the parts for this motor, sure there are more expensive engines out there, for me, a catastrophic engine failure would set me back another few years if I had to do it all over again

funny thing is I put together complicated assemblies here at work that cost in the 10's of thousands of dollars, but it's different when it "my" money

now I have to find that Raby rebuild video I bought many moons ago..........

QUOTE (Brando @ Oct 11 2005, 08:44 AM)

Is it fear if you're just procrastinating?

Well,
I guess fear could make one procrastinate. Or maybe they are just like me and terribly lazy. I've got 3 engines in various states of rebuild and can't bring myself to work on any of them more than 1-2 hours a week. But then a buddy comes to me and says," Wanna turn my car into a WRX" and I spend every spare moment for the next two weeks rewiring the whole car and doing the swap. One thing I lack is sensibility...

I can relate to the whole sweaty-palms thing. I started out with a Type 1 style bus engine back in the late 70s. It was a stock rebuild and it went for lots of miles before I overhauled the top end on a milk-crate on my inlaws back porch. Later I built the whole thing over with slightly larger p/c, but no other changes - I ran lean and I eventually burned a hole in the piston.

This was my first Type IV rebuild. It took me 17 months to get all the parts together for what was supposed to be the "ultimate stock 2.0L engine" - just flat-top Euro pistons and a cam to go with them. I used Jake's video and discovered that although it was invaluable, it also purposely left out some things. I had a TV next the the workbench and rewound it a lot to review portions. I was really paranoid about not getting something wrong.

Along the way I had some missteps like having to stop and cc the heads so that I could calculate deck height and get the right shims, then getting shims for the rocker arms. It sat covered in my carport for about 3 weeks just getting that sort of thing sorted out with the help of this list.

Because of my paranoia I checked and rechecked everything and was purposely very slow about doing things. With the missteps there were times when I got discouraged and was ready to just walk away.

But... oh man how sweet it is when you turn the key for the first time and hear it start up and just purr! I just about fainted with relief because I was so nervous! Before I turned that key I just kept telling myself that I had been careful, deliberate, and had no reason to doubt my work - so there was no reason to go for it.

You can do it Mike! Just start!

I voted when you first started the poll but didn't comment (I think).

I got the jitters when I decided to pull my motor and rebuild it. Once I had it out (that seemed to be the turning point).

I was really amazed how easy it actually was (thanks for the video Jake).



I am now learning how to rebuild a /6. I know, bring money......

I voted and here is my reply.

It took a while for me to order all the parts but, I would not have attempted it if it was not for this sight.

1st and formost, Jakes video, fantastic step by step, Best on the market.

2nd Tom Wilsons type 4 engines.

3rd Haynes manuel.

Mine is setting in the storage shead right now, waiting for the body work to be done and I cant wait till it is fired up, wheather it runs or fails, It's not because I did not try. If it fails well back to taking it back apart, and get er done. But if (and I think It will) runs and breaks in and drives, I will have a lot of pride in what I have seen , read, listen too, and worked on for 8 months while putting it back togeather.

I've been building Bug and Type IV engines for 40 years. never had one that did not run. I found it very valuable to mount a transmission under a metal table and "run up" all my rebuilds before I put them in a car. I used to start them with open exhaust but now I have a shorty manifold / VW exhaust tip set-up. That way if anything does go wrong I can hear the banging. As I said ....never has happened yet. Oil leaks yes. PS : Len Hoffman is building me a set of heads now and I'll be heading up to Jakes for the rest of the parts for a new motor for my 912E. PPS: My son was SCCA 1998 Southeast region champ in EP running an 1800CC Type IV. That we built in my basement. So it can be done ...5 races before rod bearings were replaced.

for anybody who is even going to attempt to rebuild thier engine, Jake Raby's Rebuild a t4 video is something that should be bought without a second thought....

he demystifies the whole process and makes everything easy to understand, as well as providing an example as to how to rebuild following his calm and straight-foward approach.....


While I haven't rebuilt a t4 yet, I plan to sometime in the near future.....

Thanks Jake for the vid....


b

There's no option for: I think I could do that - it doesn't particularly scare me - and would probably be fun!

I think I'd learn a lot in the process too.

Fiid, have you seen the buildup procedure for a Subaru motor?

Ya, I'm in the hier percentile group but am still apprehensive about it.

Building engines isn't that tough, just measure and measure, rotate and measure again. But for context think about other things you've done that should make any rational man a hell of a lot more nervous... like getting married, having kids, buying a house. All really serious stuff. Putting an aircooled VW engine together isn't that big a deal. Just go do it.