what percentage of a stock 914-4 are volkswagen parts?

hahahahaha

99.9



M

all but the letters on the engine grille, horn pad, and owners' manual...

The question is ultimately fairly meaningless. What percentage of VW parts are Porsche designed? One could make the argument that the basic Type I is a Porsche design, and since the Type II, III, and IV are all derived from the Type I, one could argue that every air-cooled VW ever made has Porsche fingerprints all over it.

People who get uppity about the whole VW v. Porsche issue need to get a life. Each owes a lot to the other, and each has managed to screw the other in one way or another over the years. Family, in other words...There would have been no VW w/o Porsche (the man, not the company). There would have been no Porsche (the car, not the man) w/o VW.

The one part that really makes a 914 a 914 is the chassis, and it was made by Karmann, presumably to a Porsche design. The engine and electrics are all either VW or unique to the car. The front suspension is basically Porsche with some VW elements (the integrated front hubs/rotors look very like Type III parts). The rear suspension is unique to the 914. The gearbox is all Porsche.

wasn't getting uppity, was just curious. another related thread, posted earlier today made me ask. funny thing is: when people ask me about what kind of car i have, i always answer "914", never porsche. i guess i identify myself as owning a "914" b/c it truly is in a class of its own. i think it is related to both companies, but there really isn't anything else like it from either company.

Less than 50% VW. The whole body is Porsche as is the transmission, plus front and rear suspension. Rear brakes are Porsche. Front brakes and much of the engine is VW. Door striker plates, window winder handles a coupe of switches and the tool kit are also VW. Add in a couple of decals, and few nuts and bolts. Most of the car is unique unto itself. I'd be surprised if 25% were VW. Just most of the engine and a few pidley bits. If it was a 914 2.0 then about half the engine.

QUOTE (davep @ Oct 11 2005, 07:20 PM)

Less than 50% VW.

well - to the extent that half Porsche production came to North America, where they were badged as Porsches, and the other half went to the rest of the world, where 914's were sold as VW's*...

{ :-) }

___________
* in most of those countries with "VW-Porsche" emblems, so there's another argument for 50% i suppose.

(and no, i don't care. it is what it is...)

The percentage that is Porsche decreases over the life of the vehicle since the VW parts are either plated or plastic and don't rust away like the parts that are Porsche.

-Ben M.

Porsche got the design from another firm. It was originally intended to be a front engine car. They adapted it to mid-engine.

Porsche 001 was made from 100% VW parts.

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Oct 11 2005, 05:59 PM)

Porsche got the design from another firm. It was originally intended to be a front engine car. They adapted it to mid-engine. Porsche 001 was made from 100% VW parts.

Well, except for the hand-hammered aluminum bodywork...

Not saying that this was the main point of the post but

I don't see why people get so pissy about the VW or Porsche thing. To me they both made great (now) classic cars. I couldn't really care less if the car was 100% Porsche or VW, because I still appreciate them both... I smile and stare just as much everytime I see an old bus or Ghia or squareback etc. as when I see a 911 or a 912, 914 and so on..

100%


happy?

QUOTE (MattR @ Oct 11 2005, 06:16 PM)

100% happy?

yes.
i'd rather drive a top of the line volkswagen than a poor man's porsche.

i really was only asking out of curiosity. i could give a damn either way.

I'm actually more intrigued by old VWs than I am about old Porsches (barring 904s, 916s, 908/3s, you know...).

I love old notchbacks, squarebacks and fastbacks. Rare and VERY cool (IMO). I'd pick up an old notchback if I could afford it in an instant.

QUOTE (BMartin914 @ Oct 11 2005, 06:48 PM)

I love old notchbacks, squarebacks and fastbacks. Rare and VERY cool (IMO). I'd pick up an old notchback if I could afford it in an instant.

except they cost more than your (our) 914 (s).

Yeah, I know...

Unless it's a rust bucket.

Notchbacks, maybe. Squarebacks are readily available in the SF Bay Area for $2500 in nice shape, and sometimes quite a bit less.

if ya'll see a Square back for less than 2500 hit me up.....

Adding fuel to fire;

I just pulled out my 901 tranny and it had a nice little VW stamp on it...

QUOTE (Hammy @ Oct 11 2005, 10:10 PM)

I don't see why people get so pissy about the VW or Porsche thing.

1) there are people who will be pissy about anything.
2) there's a big difference between making sure that the historical data is presented accurately and believing that any of it matters as regards the resultant car.

IOW - one is just factual, the other is a value judgement.

it *might* have made a difference, 35 years ago, when it seemed pretty clear that the 914/4 was badged as a Porsche in North America because Porsche desperately needed a replacement for the obsolete 912 entry-level car. (also not a value judgement - i owned a 912 and liked it.)

and in 1970 when the 914 was introduced to the US market, there were still a lot of original PCA types who were pissed off because the *911* was "not a real Porsche" - i.e. - 356. and believe me - there are still some of those people around. so with so much of that sentiment wildly rampant with the 914's introduction, it's no real surprise that lots of people don't like them. oh well.

QUOTE (bottomend @ Oct 12 2005, 12:32 AM)

I just pulled out my 901 tranny and it had a nice little VW stamp on it...

So, who cares. There is a Fuchs fox icon on the Fuchs rims. There are Bosch logos all over various electrical parts. There are Hella logos on the lenses. There are ATE logos on the brake calipers. I could go on. The facts are that many suppliers, including VW, provided parts for the 914. Karmann, not VW, built the 914 and many 911's and 356's before that. VW-Porsche was a joint venture between the two until 1974 when Porsche bought out the VW share.

The facts of the matter, if not the point of the discussion, is that if you want to scavange parts off of VW's to use on the 914 you won't find too many. A good number of the interchageable parts are not VW exclusive parts either.

99.9% and 100% is just plain

QUOTE (davep @ Oct 12 2005, 10:06 AM)

...if you want to scavange parts off of VW's to use on the 914 you won't find too many.

i think you'll find you can use parts from any mid-engine VW of the period :-)...

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Oct 12 2005, 06:14 AM)

i think you'll find you can use parts from any mid-engine VW of the period :-)...

That I'll agree 100% with. Lets see now, that would be models....?

The PET lists 3667 parts for all years of 914 of that:

1372 have a 914 prefix
849 have a 900 prefix
289 have a 901 prefix
80 have a 911 prefix

So roughly 71% of the parts have Porsche derived part numbers

that's pretty interesting. thanks

QUOTE (davep @ Oct 12 2005, 06:35 AM)

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Oct 12 2005, 06:14 AM) i think you'll find you can use parts from any mid-engine VW of the period :-)... That I'll agree 100% with. Lets see now, that would be models....?

Proto #4




John

QUOTE (davep @ Oct 12 2005, 10:35 AM)

... that would be models....?

all under Type 47 :-)

Are you Turning a new Leaf Rich?

QUOTE (eric914 @ Oct 12 2005, 11:24 AM)

The PET lists 3667 parts for all years of 914 of that: 1372 have a 914 prefix 849 have a 900 prefix 289 have a 901 prefix 80 have a 911 prefix So roughly 71% of the parts have Porsche derived part numbers

not least of which was 914.501.003.11 ...

i agree VW bought a lot of Porsche parts for that car :-)

911's from G-series (at least) use the 914 part number steering rack, because it was a newer, better, simpler design.

this came up in another, unrelated thread. The Geo Prizm and some kinda Toyota are the same car. are they all Geo's, or are they all Toyotas?

or are they what the badge on the back says?

going back a few messages...

in the 356 days, Karmann was just the coachbuilder - IIRC the vehicle was assembled on the Porsche production line in Zuffenhausen/Ludwigsburg.

QUOTE (davep @ Oct 12 2005, 12:48 PM)

Are you Turning a new Leaf Rich?

same old leaf. my positions haven't changed on this subject since i first got into Porsche ownership in 1975.

the 914 was sold in RoW as a VW, but it was sold into North America - where i live - as a Porsche. not even a hyphenated Porsche. a lot of people in PCA didn't like it. perhaps under pressure from VWoA (the Porsche importer at the time) perhaps not - it's irrelevant - PCA decreed "a Porsche is whatever Porsche says it is."

so basically, i don't care. i've never cared. i've always liked the car, whatever it is.

as i've said several times before, my preference is for the /6's, but i do not consider the /4's "lesser cars" - they're just different cars.

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Oct 12 2005, 08:52 AM)

this came up in another, unrelated thread. The Geo Prizm and some kinda Toyota are the same car. are they all Geo's, or are they all Toyotas?

Toyota Corolla, and they're all made at the NUMMI plant in Fremont, California. So, they're not even "Japanese" cars...

Back to the subject at hand...

Part numbers alone don't mean all that much. The steering column surround, keyswitch, and turn signal stalk on my '71 914/4 look astonishingly like the same parts on my '69 VW Type III. The 914 parts all have 914 part numbers, and the Type III parts all have 311 part numbers, but they're completely interchangable as far as I can tell.

Some of the people on the 912 board will really get their backs up when you suggest that the Type 616 (the 912 engine) is a VW engine. It's not, it's a derivation of the 40hp Type I. Lots of changes, but the bloodline is very clear. And the original Type I was designed by Herr Doktor Porsche, so why get upset when someone suggests it's a VW? It's considered sheer heresy to install a pumped up Type I into a 912 (or a 356), yet you can barely tell the difference between the two engines from 5 feet away. With the engine lid down and the car running, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference at all. Heresy...

In any case, none of this is really directed at you, Trojanman. Your original question sounded exactly like the usual opening gambit for someone who has a bug up their ass about the whole VW/Porsche thing. Usually, it's the Porsche people who are overly sensitive about the connection, for no good reason.

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Oct 12 2005, 09:03 AM)

QUOTE (davep @ Oct 12 2005, 12:48 PM) Are you Turning a new Leaf Rich? same old leaf. my positions haven't changed on this subject since i first got into Porsche ownership in 1975.

rich herzog
Group: Members
Posts: 5227
Member No.: 513
Joined: 4-April 03
Location:
Turning Leaf, PA

no longer Steamboat Springs, PA

Anyway, the 914 is a 914. Perhaps neither a VW nor a Porsche. I'm happy with what it is.

QUOTE (davep @ Oct 12 2005, 01:24 PM)

no longer Steamboat Springs, PA

ah. that. well - it never said Steamboat Springs, PA, actually...
what it *actually* said was Steambath Springs, PA.

i've been changing that location off and on since my move to PA.
for a long time, it indicated "Swamplands, PA" because there was *so* much rain.
then, with the arrival of winter, i changed it to "Salted Roads, PA."

most of August and all of September were very hot and humid, so i changed it to Steambath Springs, PA.

but with the arrival of autumn, cooler days, and the many trees changing colors around me, i decided it was time for an update so: "Turning Leaf, PA" i wonder where i'll be next :-)

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Oct 12 2005, 09:15 AM)

In any case, none of this is really directed at you, Trojanman.  Your original question sounded exactly like the usual opening gambit for someone who has a bug up their ass about the whole VW/Porsche thing.

no worries. i've always known the histoy of the car, but was just really curious about porsche/vw percentage.


is it still a porsche/vw if i put a subaru engine in it?
some other cars with identity crisis:
prism/corrolla, vibe/matrix, subaru/saab, etc....................................

That's funny about old PCA members not considering the 911 a Porsche. It seems to me, nowadays at least, when someone says Porsche, although there are other models, a 911 generally is pictured in one's mind. Such as the conversation I had with my sister. "I like your car, it's cool, I'd just never heard of it before. That one other Porsche is real cool though."
'911?'
"Yeah!"
Not to say I don't think 911's are great too.
Also, last night I happened to run into "Porsche buyers guide" in the bookstore. I flipped to the 914 entry, and although in the text it clearly stated it was a joint operation of VW/Porsche, it was still clearly praised as a very agile mid-engined Porsche.

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Oct 12 2005, 09:55 AM)

some other cars with identity crisis: prism/corrolla, vibe/matrix, subaru/saab, etc....................................

Well, Prizm/Corolla is simply caused by GM's apparently inability to engineer good small cars. The Corolla existed before the Prizm, and the Prizm is only a badge. The Vibe/Matrix is simply more of the same, though perhaps more of a joint venture between GM and Toyota.

The Soob/Saab story, don't even get me started. GM has killed Saab as a car company, and they'll probably end up killing Subaru, too.

Many US Fords are really Mazdas, yet very few European Fords become US Fords, even though there's a lot of overlap. The US Escort, for example, was never the same car as the European Escort. They brought the Euro Fiesta over briefly to help the first major gas crisis, but during the second crisis, they used the Mazda 121 as the Festiva, rather than just bring over the Fiesta again, which was still being produced. They have a great small car now: the Ka, which would probably sell very well here now, but have no plans to import it from Europe, and seem more interested in use Japanese market Mazdas instead.

Badge engineering and identity crisis cars have existed for a long time. The "BMW" Isetta, for example, was really an Innocenti design, which BMW licensed. Innocenti themselves licensed and built Mini and Midgets (only better made than the British versions).

The VW/Porsche story is a lot more complicated than joint ventures or corporate raiding. From the way this is going, they'll end up the same company within a few years, what with Porsche buying up 20% of VW as an "anti-takeover" measure.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Oct 12 2005, 02:37 PM)

GM has killed Saab as a car company, and they'll probably end up killing Subaru, too.

they better hurry; GM just sold their stake in Subaru to Toyota ...

Hey, at least the 914 is actually 100% German made, unlike the modern "Porsches".... was it Iceland where the Boxsters are made????

QUOTE (Brian Mifsud @ Oct 12 2005, 04:17 PM)

...was it Iceland where the Boxsters are made????

Finland.

Valmet is a highly respected manufacturing facility.
actually, a lot of good stuff comes out of Finland -- Nokia is Finnish.

and - unfortunately, nowadays, the Germans have had their own quality-control issues.

but it is the age of multinational content.

you talk about Japanses technology, you get radios.
you talk about German technology, you get automobiles.
you talk about American technology, you get Japanese radios in German cars ...

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Oct 12 2005, 12:23 PM)

you talk about Japanses technology, you get radios. you talk about German technology, you get automobiles. you talk about American technology, you get Japanese radios in German cars ...

remember blaupunkt?

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Oct 12 2005, 12:38 PM)

remember blaupunkt?

I remember a crappy blue dot that came in Mom's '79 BMW really sucking bad. I think there are a lot of parts that were used in more than one VW product that were also used in the 914. The electrical stuff looks to be pretty much all VW. Lots of little stuff is VW, I think they took the gas cap right off an old bug.

For the Porsche snobs I will say this. My 1979 Super Beetle was every bit as well put together as my Dad's '84 Carrera, and it is easier to push start when the battery goes dead.

"For the Porsche snobs I will say this. My 1979 Super Beetle was every bit as well put together as my Dad's '84 Carrera, and it is easier to push start when the battery goes dead. "

I would KILL to have the same build quality in my '76 914 as my '69 Beetle (wouldn't we all). You know all those silly "ducks bill" in the 914 that get hard and won't let the leaves and water pass out of the drain channels? And the crappy door panels, window regulators and for that matter, the lousy choice of where they put the battery....

All that stuff was far far superior on the Beetles. When you slammed the door on the Beetles with windows rolled up, your ears pop from the pressure of air compressing on the great door seals....

BUT of course, when you build several million of something.. you get really good at it..

As 914 owners, even use '76 model year guys, we are essentially driving around in cars that where virtually one months production of a "new model" when compared to the Beetle.. virtually a short run of "prototypes"..

I always laugh, then cry when I compare new seal kits for a Beetle compared to a 914...