how come they depreciate so quickly....

in KY, I could probably find one in the mid-7s $.

do they suck at life, or what?

Out with the old in with the new.

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Oct 13 2005, 11:12 AM)

how come they depreciate so quickly....

they appeal to the fashionable.
when they cease to be the flavor of the week, they are discarded.

and like all Porsches, they can be expensive to operate.
you don't need parts very often, but when you do, they're pricey.

it's basically impossible to fit chains, so they are not good in snow.

there are few user-serviceable parts inside, and you will need a scan tool for even some "routine" maintenance.

wow....

i guess that makes sense.....

they start at like 30k(random guess) and price only goes down from there.......


just wondering if there was a severe problem.....

it's no 914, but they look okay.

It is always hard to work on an engine when you can't even see the damn thing!

I think the early ones had problems with the RMS and they have plastic rear windows also they are deemed under powered at, I think, 200 hp or so from a 2.5l.

So if the power is not a problem and the window could be a good buy as long as the inherent issues with the engine aren't there.

I think in 97 the first year they were 39,995 base.

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Oct 13 2005, 10:19 AM)

wow.... i guess that makes sense..... they start at like 30k(random guess) and price only goes down from there....... just wondering if there was a severe problem..... it's no 914, but they look okay.

try mid 40s new...

people also tend to drive them hard, and not know how to maintain them as such... they think if they have a Porsche it's just a street legal race-car, but that's not the case.

now, if, you are finding them under 10k... Jump on it!!! that's a steal even if it needs a little work...

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Oct 13 2005, 07:19 AM)

they start at like 30k(random guess)

Maybe in Kentucky.......

Britt goin' to the FFC in Indiana?

John

yeah...a boxster for around 10k is a great deal....
the average bottom is around 15k

i think the 2.5 is around 220 hp....its enough for me, im thinking of maybe getting one once im out of college....or we will see how the cayman is priced....

QUOTE (i love porsche @ Oct 13 2005, 10:41 AM)

yeah...a boxster for around 10k is a great deal.... the average bottom is around 15k i think the 2.5 is around 220 hp....its enough for me, im thinking of maybe getting one once im out of college....or we will see how the cayman is priced....

the cayman s starts at $58g, add another $8g for the pccb brakes.

QUOTE (Flat VW @ Oct 13 2005, 09:41 AM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Oct 13 2005, 07:19 AM) they start at like 30k(random guess) Maybe in Kentucky....... Britt goin' to the FFC in Indiana? John

I'm planning on going.....Don't know what to do about a room though....might have to bunk it up in the 914.....hotels are $$

b

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Oct 13 2005, 07:48 AM)

QUOTE (Flat VW @ Oct 13 2005, 09:41 AM) QUOTE (bd1308 @ Oct 13 2005, 07:19 AM) they start at like 30k(random guess) Maybe in Kentucky....... Britt goin' to the FFC in Indiana? John no I really want to though..... it's tomorrow isnt it?

No, next week, it can't be too far from you?

J

P.S. I think Laurie (my wife) and I may go.

ain't no boxster going to be $7k unless it's beat.

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Oct 13 2005, 07:55 AM)

ain't no boxster going to be $7k unless it's beat.

Just the cost of the "maintence calandar" work is daunting especially in an older and older car...

John

Lots of them coming off of lease.

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Oct 13 2005, 08:55 AM)

ain't no boxster going to be $7k unless it's beat.

please show me a $7K Boxster that is not a salvage title

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 13 2005, 08:59 AM)

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Oct 13 2005, 08:55 AM) ain't no boxster going to be $7k unless it's beat. please show me a $7K Boxster that is not a salvage title

I think Britt converted the price to the metric system.

Andrew

Take a look at the Excellence articles on market prices and problem areas for used Porsches. The do a review of the Boxster periodically, it will help you know what to check, what repairs cost, and what to expect to go wrong. Great resource!

I was simply wondering if there was any real reason for the drop in price....

but i never really looked into used car markets....



b

thanks all!

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 13 2005, 08:59 AM)

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Oct 13 2005, 08:55 AM) ain't no boxster going to be $7k unless it's beat. please show me a $7K Boxster that is not a salvage title

I know of some Louisiana cars.... Give me a couple of months, and they won't have salvage titles anymore.

New cars are shitty investments. They take something like a 20%-30% hit the instant they drive off the lot!! And they just keep on depreciating, year after year, until they bottom out. The 914 seems to have finally gotten to that point, and the prices are now rising. Slowly. This group is one of the reasons why--it gets people fired up about 914s, helps them keep them on the road, and helps improve them and make them more reliable!

How low will the Boxters go? It's tough to say. Perhaps $7K is the bottom, and they'll get there in another few years. Perhaps people will decide that they're just about worthless--but it'll take another 20 years for them to get to that point. Perhaps the new "Spec Boxster" series will take off like gangbusters and demand will push the prices back up over $15K. The market is a very fickle thing for expensive toys like sports cars....

--DD

You'll occasionally seeing early 1997/8 Boxster 2.5s in the $12-15K range...but they're usually rough!

I bought a 1999 car with 60,000 miles a year ago for $17,500 after selling my 2003 WRX with 30,000 miles for $19,200. Loved the Subie, but don't regret the move. There just isn't anything like a Porsche. Period.

Of course, I had to do a $1200 60K service, it needed four tires, an alignment, and then it has been motoring bliss ever since.

Well, except for a MAF that went bad for $250 or so along with a failed radiator coolant expansion tank at a pricey $250~ for the part and it is a NIGHTMARE to get to, so it's really a $500 job.

It needs a 75K service now and that's $500 at the dealer (for oil, filter, and cabin filter plus a thorough screwing for me). An independant will do all the above for about $300.

Is it expensive to keep up? Compared to a 914 that you can work on yourself, yes. But then it's not 30 years old, so I am not worrying about rust, brake lines, fuel lines, wiring, etc. etc. And you've got to compare the maintenance to, say, a Nissan 300ZX or new 350Z. Then it's not SO bad.

It's hard for me to see these cars bottom out much further than they have already. 200+ hp, four piston brake calipers at all four corners, great A/C, a full power top, four airbags 1998 and later), and stellar driving dynamics. All for 20-25 year old 911 SC money. What's not to like? I can't imagine a better two-seat pick for this kind of money as a daily...

pete

If this works, this is for you Mueller, finally got some pics of the 18x10s in the rear. Excuse the boxes and open trunks, was simulating RoW M030 suspension to see if it was low enough for my liking...

pete

'nuther

one more

Here is one for $9k Boxster cheaper than a number of 914s I have seen.

No matter how bad that thing is -- unless it's been hit hard -- that is a STEAL!

For $30K or so, you could have a Boxster with a 300-horse 996 motor, 18s, M030 RoW suspension, big brakes, and a LOT of speed -- all in something that would be a joy to drive day in and out while beating up on $75,000+ 997s...

These really are the 914s of today.

pete

thanks Pete...I like your method of "lowering" the car

If you can find a Boxster for under $10K that hasnt been run into a pole its a deal.

I would trade my dads 944 t for a boxster...

And at those prices....

I could!!!!!

Good 944 turbo's are 12k...

hmm

If I save some money, I'd get one.... seriously.

Why Boxsters depreciate so quickly.

1) They are an "entry level" Porsche. We all know what that means.
(think 914, 924, 944, etc)
2) They are not made in Porsche's factories (Sweden & Finland)
3) Intentional depreciation by Porsche's valuation of the car over time (Blue book values).
4) Cheaper than a same-year 911 initially, just as expensive to maintain.
5) It's easier to drive it into the ground (100k+ miles in less than 10 years?!) and pawn it off for a few grand than maintain it.
6) Too damn heavy
7) Anemic flat-six by Porsche's standards today.

And the winner...

8) Would out-handle a same-year 911 if it had the same powerplant.

Think of the Boxster as a modern-day 914. Except Porsche learned from it's mistake with the 914-6. It did not produce a mid-engined car that could exceed the 911's reputation. If the 986 were lighter and had a 280bhp motor it could easily give a 993 or a 996 a run for it's money. Now, a turbocharged 3-litre 986? Fiberglass or carbon-fibre body? You'll leave 911's standing still.

Think cayenne tt engine....


then think C/F body....


wait, thats the Carrera gt...

Ok, cayenne tt in the 911, and the 3.8 in the boxster with a turbo model in the cayman...



Yup... THats my prediction of 5 years...

QUOTE (Brando @ Oct 13 2005, 09:44 PM)

Why Boxsters depreciate so quickly. 1) They are an "entry level" Porsche. We all know what that means. (think 914, 924, 944, etc) 2) They are not made in Porsche's factories (Sweden & Finland) 3) Intentional depreciation by Porsche's valuation of the car over time (Blue book values). 4) Cheaper than a same-year 911 initially, just as expensive to maintain. 5) It's easier to drive it into the ground (100k+ miles in less than 10 years?!) and pawn it off for a few grand than maintain it. 6) Too damn heavy 7) Anemic flat-six by Porsche's standards today. And the winner... 8) Would out-handle a same-year 911 if it had the same powerplant. Think of the Boxster as a modern-day 914. Except Porsche learned from it's mistake with the 914-6. It did not produce a mid-engined car that could exceed the 911's reputation. If the 986 were lighter and had a 280bhp motor it could easily give a 993 or a 996 a run for it's money. Now, a turbocharged 3-litre 986? Fiberglass or carbon-fibre body? You'll leave 911's standing still.

Except Boxster is much closer to 911 than 944 or 914 were in terms of power and refinement. Not to mention the fact they come with a sweet 6 cylinder power plant. Oh yeah its a convetible too.

Expensive to maintain? I havent run into those "expenses" yet with mine.

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Oct 13 2005, 10:03 PM)

Except Boxster is much closer to 911 than 944 or 914 were in terms of power and refinement.  Not to mention the fact they come with a sweet 6 cylinder power plant.  Oh yeah its a convetible too.

That is very true. They share the same styling as the 996, a better suspension system an yes, a 6cyl. Engine. All very good but it also has the potential to be a 911-bashing ride. I'm saying from Porsche's standpoint, they want the Boxster to be viewed as the 'little brother' to the 911. Not as much power, not as much top speed so it can't compete with a 911 of it's time. See what I'm saying?

They are great cars, when taken care of. If I did come across one for 911SC prices I'd be all over it.

QUOTE

Expensive to maintain?  I havent run into those "expenses" yet with mine.

I've seen $15k boxsters come into the shop.

Quickly thereafter they are $20k boxsters (for the new owner).

Input shaft snapped? $OUCH$
Convertible top motors dead? $DOUBLEOUCH$
Electrical woes? $$!
Drove it too hard without regular service intervals? $NEW$ $ENGINE$

This is just within the last 4 months.

Although, most of the Boxsters I have worked on only needed oil changes, tranny fluid changes, brakes and maybe a smog cert. They all have had less than 60k miles though. Take good care of your car, and you'll never see expenses like those. And you'll enjoy the car much more when you see your yearly maintainance doesn't equal the current market value of the car (like most other "entry level" Porsches).

Andrew,

I was just thinking it's too bad Boxsters are too new for smog exemption, cause an SBC would probably fit in quite nicely if one could forego the convertible top and use a factory hardtop for rainy days...

...but then I thought, why not get a 1998-99 986 with a blown motor (how cheap would THAT be?!?) and add a late-model Chevy V8 out of a Camaro or Vette with all the smog gear? In some ways, that would be a better way to spend $10K than fixing a terminal RMS motor.

Think of it, all the radiators and plumbing are already there. And I suspect the Chevy motor would be an interesting comparison in terms of power, weight, and fuel economy. Renegade should really start making a V8 adaptor for the 986S transmission...

pete

O hyeah, OBD II would be a nightmare, wouldn't it?

Oh well, maybe the days of motor swaps are done and gone...

pete

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Oct 14 2005, 12:25 PM)

O hyeah, OBD II would be a nightmare, wouldn't it?

why?

it's just a computer protocol, and one for which all the specifications are available to anyone. (i've got a copy here somewhere...) with way less CPU power than it takes to run a MegaSquirt you could make the OBD-II data stream say anything you'd like.

not many technicians know anything more about OBD-II systems than where to find the plug...

the hardest part of such a system for a Boxster would probably be deciding whether to use ISO-9141-2 or SAE J1850-VPW.

(not that anyone would produce an "OBD-II like" system that would produce intentionally inaccurate results...)

Pete, I've thought of that as well..

And so has Brad Roberts....


You got the money?

I keep trying to convince my wife that mortgages are overrated...

So no, I don't got the money. I picked the wrong career for that.

Most people pay to have fun in cars. I get paid to have fun in cars -- just not much.

Nice to hear the OBD II interface would be less of a nightmare than I thought. I knew it was possible in the way that anything is *possible* but had reservations due to how imbedded some of the modern management systems have become... PSM, for instance, is apparently a real pain to get out of a car, if it's even possible. The Germans say PASM would present similar issues.

But damn if a 400-horse motor out of a wrecked C6 Corvette isn't an appealing thought in a Boxster. It costs $10-15K to put a 3.4 996 motor in, so why not put that toward a V8 if outright performance is your bag. And while I'd personally probably still go for the 3.4, this idea has some serious legs. Can you imagine the faces of 993, 996, 996TT, and 997 owners at the track after getting waxed by a plain-looking Boxster?

I suspect that, at those power levels, the 986's rear frame strength would become the weak link, however. Kinda like another mid-engine Porsche we know...

pete

Oh yeah, and...



(I always wanted to use one-a those.)

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Oct 14 2005, 10:06 AM)

Oh yeah, and...  :hijacked:  :hijacked:  :hijacked:  :hijacked: (I always wanted to use one-a those.)

No here, the topic was "Boxster" so anything goes...

A V8 conversion would be impressive but will have the same additional costs as for the 914:
-crate engine LS7 ~$12-$17k
-a transaxle that will hold up to 300-400 torque. Ajracer has a Boxster 5 speed on his LT1 but little usage so far. It will probably last with respect or be disposable @$1500 used. $5k-10k to adapt a G50.
-the dual radiators may not be sufficient to cool a V8 and used are not cheap in my experience. add $1500 for used replacements, more for larger sizes, or a comparable Ron Davis/Renegade type
-upgrade brakes $
-chassis strengthening $
-suspension upgrades $

My point is unless you install a mild V8, costs exponentially increase. That's how a NASCAR engined 914 costs $100k++.

At least you shouldn't have to deal with rust and you'll have all the modern conveniences!

914s are still more fun.

QUOTE (neo914-6 @ Oct 14 2005, 11:39 AM)

No here, the topic was "Boxster" so anything goes... -the dual radiators may not be sufficient to cool a V8 and used are not cheap in my experience. -upgrade brakes $ -chassis strengthening $ -suspension upgrades $

I still say hijacked as this started out as a used Boxster thing and has turned into a V8 Boxster thread, but agree the title has lots o' leeway!

-Radiators should be gud for a decent V8, as they're good for a 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8-liter 996/997 engines with 296-355 hp. Need to check part numbers, but I believe at least the first two iterations used the same coolers.

-Moreover, a third central radiator can be easily added with all factory parts, for not much money.

-Good points on the tranny, will be curious to see what happens with that SBC 914

-Brakes are pretty good already, but the fronts would be a weak link with that power level. Brembos are nice but money, so the Stoptech setup for the 996 might be the way to go at two grand or so -- just need to check caliper piston sizes for 986 rears vs. 996 rears, but I've been *told* they're very similar.

-Suspension is one of those black holes, but I think RoW M030 at only $1K for shocks, springs, and bars would be a good starting place. And any stock Boxster will deal with 400 hp better than a 914 will in terms of what you're starting out with....

-So chassis work is the big ??? What would be needed, and, when you do it, would it end up breaking other things?

As for 914s being more fun, I *think* I agree when it comes to stock vs. stock on the right day and the right road. Or maybe it's just a different kind of fun?

With a 400-horse V8 installed, I'd rather have a Boxster designed to have 200-300 hp as a platform than a 914 designed to have 70-110 hp as a platform.

pete

i enjoy things....

keep it going.

we'll see where this ends up.

Oh yeah, and you can get 245s up front (or even 265s with some finaggling) and 285s in back under the stock fenders...

The boxster chassi can easily be fixed...

Just put in a targa bar!

I havent heard anything with the chassi, but if it did start to go caput, future v8 boxster owners would know where to stiffen...

Radiator.. A third radiator would probably help.... If that didnt do it, a custom assembly would definately cool the poor sucker.

Your complaining about the boxster brakes? lol Its already got abs... Putting pads on it and you'll be done. your only adding ~ 100 lbs.

Suspension... Who wants factory suspension anyways? Besides, it would just lower the car a tiny bit on factory... Like Me sitting in the drivers seat vs my dad (jk dad)

265's up front, 315's in back (yes, some john kelly would be going into this boxster...) and kabam!!!(iff you really needed it, in that case, suspension and all that jaz would be done as well)

Only problem I see is possible fitment(will that darn thing fit?), and trani adapting.

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Oct 14 2005, 04:07 PM)

With a 400-horse V8 installed, I'd rather have a Boxster designed to have 200-300 hp as a platform than a 914 designed to have 70-110 hp as a platform.

the 986/996 chassis is *much* stiffer than anything that came before it.

the 914 chassis was good for at least the 210HP the GT's put out. the problem with the GT's was the flex-induced metal fatigue as the cars were kept in service long after they were expected to be, and the increasingly heavy spring rates needed to work with the increasingly wide and incrceasingly sticky tires. by the time you're running 14" rear slicks you are *WAY* past the original load factors. this isn't a factor of power, it's a factor of grip. (although without enough power, grip alone isn't a factor, because the loads are less...)

Yes, yes, I know 914s chassis broke apart and/or failed with time and miles due to too much suspension loading -- which came on due to the wider tires, stiffer suspension, etc., etc. meant to deal with added power.

Porsche had a finite number of races they felt a 914 chassis was good for before it should be thrown away. I can't remember where I read what that number was, but it was depressingly low. Of course, "thrown away" meant sell to a privateer back then, just as it did with all of the works cars that came before the 914.

What I am getting at with the "I'd rather start with a Boxster" idea is that Porsche starts with a platform that's designed as the basis for a system of parts. The system of parts the 914 was originally designed for would have far less performance than what many of us now have in the cars. Some have gone to the trouble of dealing with that, some haven't. But I would certainly want to in a 400-horse 914!

The systems intended for the Boxster are just that much further along...as is the chassis. But the guys at Smart Racing have seen real issues with rear alignment going out of spec on Boxsters that are tracked with slicks -- even when they're driven cleanly.

Apparently, they had to PortaPower one rear end back into shape, but this is only a RUMOR and needs substantiation.

QUOTE

the 986/996 chassis is *much* stiffer than anything that came before it.

I think the Boxster chassis is one of the stiffest chassis out, even better than many new cars with full/rigid roofs

I guess I'm missing the whole point of a V8 Boxster. One, it would be difficult to get smogged in many states. Two, you're only adding weight to an already heavy car. More power helps, but less weight with equal power can be just as fast, doesn't present the smog problem, and is easier on tires.

I'd be a lot more interested in seeing how much weight you could trim off a Boxster with the stock drivetrain in place. I've seen figures of 300-400lbs w/o really gutting the thing. But I'd wonder how much farther you could go. Gut the interior, remove all of those electric motors, CF lids, trim out everything that's even remotely optional, including the top and the related stuff (sunshine only car). 500lbs? 1000lbs? Get an early 2.5 down to 2000lbs and you'd end up with pretty neat car.