As a 21 year old college student most of my peers have a hard time understanding why I think my 85 hp 30 yr old car is so fun. Usually I get the question, “Okay, It seems like you can make a lot of upgrades to this car, If you did that how fast would it be” I usually answer with a stutter, uh uh I dunno. So, with a 200 hp six and moderately stiff suspension, what kind of numbers do you guys have? It would be very interesting to see some braking stats, 0-60, some form of slalom, anything. I’m also wondering if the guys out there with 300 to 400hp or getting that much more for performance.

QUOTE (yahthatsright @ Oct 25 2005, 09:10 AM)

...with a 200 hp six and moderately stiff suspension, what kind of numbers do you guys have? It would be very interesting to see some braking stats, 0-60, some form of slalom, anything. I’m also wondering if the guys out there with 300 to 400hp or getting that much more for performance.

with a 200HP 6 and stiff suspension on racing tires, you can win your class at Le Mans; Porsche did just that 35 years ago.

with 300HP, you can take TTOD at a Parade (PCA National Convention) where your competition is every Porsche ever made.

Hmmmm... Well I don't have all the answers to that - but here's a comparison of sorts for you. Go HEREand look at the times for an autocross the local PCA had and look at the course times under "Matt Shepherd - 914-6" and compare them to the other cars listed.

The car is powered by a 2.7 RS Spec six that puts out something north of 200 hp and has many of the usual suspension upgrades.

Does that help at all?

It's not difficult to make a high horsepower car go fast, just step on the pedal. I've always enjoyed thrashing 4 cyl coupes around as it's a challenge and a blast to push them to their potential. That's just me, go figure.

A 914/6 with 200+hp is blindingly fast. I know the Fordahl's won SCCA FP AX for a couple of years in a row with theirs.
I have driven one tricked out 914/6 witha hot 3.2L and its very fast. If you let a passenger ride with you they would pee on themselves.

I just bought a '71 with a stock 3.2 (with factory Bosch fuel injection, 217hp) and it is about as much fun as any car I've ever driven. It's faster than my 5.0 Mustang in a straight line but not as fast as my 944 turbo (about 320 hp). If I could only keep one car though, it would be the 914.

All the guys that I work with drive 5.0 mustangs. That would be to much fun to beat them in a drag race, I think they can hift alittle bit faster than me though lol

QUOTE (nynone4 @ Oct 25 2005, 05:19 AM)

Hmmmm... Well I don't have all the answers to that - but here's a comparison of sorts for you. Go HEREand look at the times for an autocross the local PCA had and look at the course times under "Matt Shepherd - 914-6" and compare them to the other cars listed. The car is powered by a 2.7 RS Spec six that puts out something north of 200 hp and has many of the usual suspension upgrades. Does that help at all?

Matt,
The big difference in times was that the rest of us are really bad drivers! Just kidding, Matt is one hell of a driver. Many of the other there were very good drivers.

Matt is right. When can you take a 30+ yr old car and with a bit of $$ have one of the best performers around?

M

Its tough convincing the "ricer" crowd that the 914 is somehow speacial. I guess I quit trying and go drive my car!

QUOTE (mikelsr @ Oct 25 2005, 06:25 AM)

Matt, The big difference in times was that the rest of us are really bad drivers!  :driving:

Dang Mike !!! Why you gotta go and blow my cover like that???

yahthatsright - Just take your "ricer" friends for a ride in your car at an autocross. You'll make believers out of them (or scare them into never wanting to ride with you again).

QUOTE (yahthatsright @ Oct 25 2005, 06:18 AM)

All the guys that I work with drive 5.0 mustangs. That would be to much fun to beat them in a drag race, I think they can hift alittle bit faster than me though lol

A 914 just isn't a good drag car and never will be. However, it's a great handling car, and excells at other forms of motorsport where turning is involved. If you want to beat Mustangs just go to an autocross with those guys. I've watched a 1.7L 914 litterally SPANK a supercharged Mustang SVT Cobra at autocross. Repeatedly. Without mercy.

-Ben M.

Average 0 - 60?

6 years, 2 months, 14 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 11 seconds.

Not to mention the $.

A V8 might be outside what you would consider, but if not: with my 400ish hp SBC, I have made more kids in 5.0 Mustangs cry that I can count anymore.

There is a guy out in my neck of the country who drives a butt ugly yellow Rousch Mustang. I think when he sees me coming up on him in his review mirror now, he takes the first turn he comes to.

QUOTE (yahthatsright @ Oct 25 2005, 06:35 AM)

Its tough convincing the "ricer" crowd that the 914 is somehow speacial. I guess I quit trying and go drive my car!

I can't answer your question. I can say this, I have an 89 944S2 that makes like 210HP and almost 50/50 weight distribution. My last 914 was a 1.7 that maybe made 75HP. The 914 was more fun to drive. I don't know why it just was.

I guess its like the old harley thing, If you have to ask you wouldn't understand. Even though harleys are now a total image thing, but thats another thread. You don't own the car for them, you own it for yourself. 914 ownership is not about other people, its about you and the car. In that respect, it is a more mature form of car hobby. Enough people in the world own there cars for other people.

QUOTE (balljoint @ Oct 25 2005, 09:09 AM)

Average 0 - 60? 6 years, 2 months, 14 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 11 seconds. Not to mention the $.

When a brand newly converted stock 283 SBC, with newbie driver, can turn a solid mid 12 run in the quarter, You've got to respect that.

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Oct 25 2005, 12:44 PM)

QUOTE (balljoint @ Oct 25 2005, 09:09 AM) Average 0 - 60? 6 years, 2 months, 14 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 11 seconds. Not to mention the $. When a brand newly converted stock 283 SBC, with newbie driver, can turn a solid mid 12 run in the quarter, You've got to respect that.

No doubt.

I was including restoration time.

QUOTE

As a 21 year old college student most of my peers have a hard time understanding why I think my 85 hp 30 yr old car is so fun.

Maybe you should find some new friends? :-) You shouldn't have to justify your car to your friends.

Take a few on a ride down a curvy country road. Maybe let some of the more responsible ones actually drive it. That will change their minds.

Definetly need to take the boys for a ride, off camber counrty road, thats how my dad got me hooked

As a 20 year old college student, whenever I get in those pissing contests where they throw around numbers and times, I just say "my car looks cooler." You're never going to convince anyone the 914 is a better car based on numbers. It simply isnt a straight line car, which is what modern numbers are geared towards. Just smile and nod and say "yeah, my car is a piece of crap." If that circulates, theres a lesser chance of car theft

914's are the best! If you look at pnwr.pca.org you can see the results auto-xing with a very competative group. My 914-6 is powered by a '74 2.7 normal that I put carbs on and in it went. The suspension has been breathed on a bit, and the 8" Fuchs w/ hoosier 225/45-15 doesn't hurt. For the last few years my biggest competition has come from an extensively improved RSA and a mildly improved 996. Now the GT-3 is coming into it's own, but he has only beat me once. I have traded 1st thru 3rd at each event and placed a solid 3rd for the season (best five of nine) for the past 4 or 5 years. I can see the GT-3 becoming a problem in the future, but I'm not done yet! I have scored top time of day more than once.
As far as for the ricers, well I must admit that I almost got beat by two brothers in their 2 Honda civic hatchbacks, I later found out that they were among the few people that have figured out how to make the ricers turn well.
As a young man owning a 914 you will find a very diverce group of enthusiasts. Old guys (like me) will come over to you at the gas station, store, or follow you home just to talk 914's. The social and technical community alone is almost worth it.
In the end, if they don't understand, take them for a ride!!!

F = m a

914s don't have much m, which means with limited F they still have sufficient a. Add some F (say a 6 conversion, or a Subbie motor (SBCs unfortunatly come with extra m)) and you get lots of fun.

The little appreciated fact is that when you turn 90o, you lose all your velocity in one direction and have to put it back on again in another direction. So your 914s relative lack of m helps you twice - once when you're decelerating in one direction and once when you're reaccelerating in the other.

If your buddies respect the elise - you might want to raise the fact that you can buy a 914 for 1/10th the price of an elise and it only weighs about 200lbs more despite being made of STEEL and being 30yrs old.

And then there's just the grin factor.

QUOTE (jasons @ Oct 25 2005, 10:20 AM)

914 ownership is not about other people, its about you and the car. In that respect, it is a more mature form of car hobby. Enough people in the world own there cars for other people.

Do NOT take your buddies for a run on some twisty public road
unless you have a lot of hi performance driving (track or AX) under your belt.....even then, it's a lousy idea. 914s can BITE at the limit...or just over.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Oct 25 2005, 10:46 AM)

914s can BITE at the limit...or just over.

I was thinking the very same thing this one time when I was riding out a 450 degree spin at 60mph (NOT on a public road)...
I agree with JP. Not on the road. Go to an autocross. It's safer, there are whitnesses, there is no disputing the outcome, and you'll meet cool people who will edumacate your friends that real fun doesn't happen in a straight line.

-Ben M.

how much do 914s weigh? my 510 weighs about 2200-2300 with a 240sx engine. supposedly it should do low-mid 14s in the 1/4 mile.

root-werx last six conversion was a very strong 2.7 and accelerated very strong est. 0-60 4.5 - 5 sec. and 1/4 mi. low to mid 13s. idnt corner well for a 914 due to skinny hard tires, but the power on drift was fun

why are go karts fun?.... same for 914s.

I get the same thing from my buds... They can't conceive how a 30+ piece of German metal with a "lawn mower" motor can out perform their new day "sports car". All they're concerned about is how fast it'll take you from one stop light to the next.
I figure just ignore it, be glad you know something they don't. Or show them, but don't kill yourself (or them) doing so.

There a number of us with powerful 914s with v8's, 3.6, twin turbo 3.4, and 3.0 turbo sixes,
with horsepower ratings from 300 to 600hp. All these cars would be considered very fast. Most of these cars also have all the necessary suspension and brake modifications to make them very capable cars against most anything you would run across on the street.

If you go out to the PCA site and look at the race track results you will see a lot of 914's at the top of the list running against and beating the newer models.

The car can still compete on the track as well as AX.

If this is about the limits... then the argument is essentially ridiculous. Spend enough money on a Subie, Lancer, Honda, or Chevy Aveo and it will destroy even the fastest 914s on this board. But you're talking CUBIC money...

The same works in reverse. I suppose a 914 could make it to the moon -- if it was strapped to a big enough rocket.

But re-entry would probably be a bitch.

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Oct 25 2005, 02:39 PM)

Spend enough money on a Subie, Lancer, Honda, or Chevy Aveo and it will destroy even the fastest 914s on this board.

I'd like to see any of those cars take on Roger Sheridan's 914 on a road course.
-Ben M.

QUOTE (airsix @ Oct 25 2005, 03:35 PM)

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Oct 25 2005, 02:39 PM) Spend enough money on a Subie, Lancer, Honda, or Chevy Aveo and it will destroy even the fastest 914s on this board. I'd like to see any of those cars take on Roger Sheridan's 914 on a road course. -Ben M.

Well....Honda now owns BAR outright

BTW, Pete, we specialize in the ridiculous here, eh.

I have no other friends than car guys. This is all ya'll and the Loos'ana Autocross peeps. Those that have ridden in the red neck racer (only the brave) are usually shitting thier pants because they were sure I wasn't going to make it through the gate at the speed I was carrying.
Those VERY lucky and have money to fix what breaks get to drive it and the response is I gotta get me one of these.
There is no looking down on this teener well cept them ugly fenders.
come on UPS girl need my flares.

I posted this on the OR autocross thread. It is the list of cars in this weekends autocross and the results, there are several Porsche and several non-Porsches in this list. You can get a quick idea of how the cars stack up to each other. Granted, there are several factors that are not included on this list...driver skill, tires, suspension upgrades, motor, etc. but you get the idea. Just as a matter of reference, my car placed 6th overall and is a stock '70 1.7L with swaybars, 140lb rear springs, and Falken's. It weighs 1950lb stock also. There were a couple of really modified WRX's that were really fast also.

So, overall I would place the 914 right up there with the best of them when it comes to overall performance as judged by an autocross. Many people are very surprised that a 35 year old car that cost me $4500, has 65 hp on a good day, and is my daily driver can perform so well when compared to several generations of Porsches and other more technologically advanced cars.

-Britain

Only 2 secs slower than JP and he's got 120hp more than you Britian??? WTF How wide are your tires?

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Oct 25 2005, 07:00 PM)

WTF How wide are your tires?

he's running 205s ... JPs are about twice as wide ...

Andy

looa @ #46, he was driving an f100, thats crazy. i'd be afraid of my hubs falling off

The TTDO guy is a regular SCCA AS competitor and was running Yoko 100ES IIRC. and just so nobody's haid gets too big, on a 50-60 sec course, those gaps would prolly double.
The 3rd place car was SM but still on street tires. Those are the guys I know....the rest

2 weeks ago, I ran SCCA in the wet/ damp and they ran in the dry and killed me by 3-4 sec. I'm used to gettin' beat & that bothers me some. I admit, Britian is pretty quick. He drove the shit outta my car.....but others have done better. Andy, Geoff, come on over and we'll plant your ass in my car & you can show me whatcha got....that goes pretty much for anybody here. Anything else is blowing wind.

Britian:
you proved you can drive. You could prolly jump in about any car there and beat the owners time by 2 sec. ...so could the guys in the Subies. I think your analysis is off the mark
as your leaving the drivers out of the equation.

QUOTE

I'd like to see any of those cars take on Roger Sheridan's 914 on a road course.

Apples to oranges, but there are several ex-Trans AM cars running in HSR that would eat that car alive.

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Oct 25 2005, 06:00 PM)

Only 2 secs slower than JP and he's got 120hp more than you Britian??? WTF How wide are your tires?

Forget the tires....Britian is an ALIEN...a mutant....and pretty quick himself....

QUOTE (airsix @ Oct 25 2005, 03:35 PM)

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Oct 25 2005, 02:39 PM) Spend enough money on a Subie, Lancer, Honda, or Chevy Aveo and it will destroy even the fastest 914s on this board. I'd like to see any of those cars take on Roger Sheridan's 914 on a road course. -Ben M.

"Spend enough money" is the operative phrase...

With a NASA-like budget, I am quite sure one could build a beryllium-calipered, tube-framed, F1-powered Chevy Aveo 5-door that would destroy Sheridan's 914 on a race track.

It might not look much like an Aveo anymore, but then how much 914 is really left in Roger's car?

BTW, anyone remember that crazy F1 minivan from the 1990s?

pete

Also agree, the driver is simply too big a part of the equation in the autocross results above...

But it's fascinating nonetheless. That STi driver must be a serious shoe...even though Subie got rid of a lot of the 2004 STi's understeer with the '05 model, I am VERY impressed that anyone driving one of those four-door, AWD porkers can beat out JP's trick six for TT. I used to own one, and while it was stunning on backroads, I would never have picked it for AX work...

Wow!

pete

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Oct 26 2005, 09:04 AM)

QUOTE (airsix @ Oct 25 2005, 03:35 PM) QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Oct 25 2005, 02:39 PM) Spend enough money on a Subie, Lancer, Honda, or Chevy Aveo and it will destroy even the fastest 914s on this board. I'd like to see any of those cars take on Roger Sheridan's 914 on a road course. -Ben M. "Spend enough money" is the operative phrase... With a NASA-like budget, I am quite sure one could build a beryllium-calipered, tube-framed, F1-powered Chevy Aveo 5-door that would destroy Sheridan's 914 on a race track. It might not look much like an Aveo anymore, but then how much 914 is really left in Roger's car? BTW, anyone remember that crazy F1 minivan from the 1990s? pete

Yes, indeed. A Renault Espace with a Williams-Renault driveline installed roughly where the rear seats went. Lowered, with some ground effects tunnels, and still had the center seats. They took Renault execs and other VIPs around Paul Ricard and made most of them throw up.

The spending is the important part here. I'll bet that in terms of price/performance, the 914 is the king of AX. The only thing in the same league would be a 1.6 Miata, which can now be had very cheaply, yet with the appropriate upgrades, would still do very well at AX.

"I'll bet that in terms of price/performance, the 914 is the king of AX."



I would imagine the just deleted Toyota MR-2 Spyder would be another great AX ride for the money...with lots of potential.

A while back, someone said the Elise is the modern-day 914, but I have to say that the Elise is probably more like a modern-day 914-6 GT (kind of) than a 914, which, unlike the GT, was fully trimmed and equipped in the way the average buyer of the day expected a car you could and woud use every day to be.

In that sense, a (used) Boxster is still closer to a modern-day 914, but maybe the MR-2 Spyder is closer still. It's a BALL to drive with "humble" horsepower from a "plebian" engine and not much more than 2,000 pounds to push around. And it's arguably f-ugly in its stock configuration!

QUOTE

BTW, anyone remember that crazy F1 minivan from the 1990s?

There used to be footage of that thing running Spa (maybe) on Renault's website.

Ok, college boy. What's your major. Mine's mechanical engineering. You show me three ricers that can actually modify their cars. And how many mustangs can beat you through a corner? The advantage of the 914 ISN'T numbers... It's the feeling of the tires making good contact. It's the smell of gasoline in the cockpit when you've got the top off. It's that feeling where the car and you and the road are all melted together- to the point where you can't feel anything as an individual (if you have never felt this before, then you should go on a road trip.) It's a feeling of accomlishment after you do something and can actually tell the difference. Go adjust your front end ride height and come back.

Sorry if I seem too serious. But you just tell all your friends; FOR GODSAKE! IT'S A PORSCHE!

Oh yeah. And forget the PCA AutoX numbers. Look up the old lemans records and those kinds of international events. 914s were finishing le mans in front of Ford GT40s for a while. Imagine how fast the 917s were to have actually been banned from racing. There's another teener. J/k- nobody owns a 917 and drives it, But still; you can take apart a porsche and can't count on all the fingers and toes you've got all the things that are still ahead of cars today.

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Jan 1 2006, 07:04 PM)

Oh yeah. And forget the PCA AutoX numbers. Look up the old lemans records and those kinds of international events.

I think not.

PCA & SCCA autocross is what many of us DO, not just talk about. To me, what has been done in the past is interesting, but not revelant to this discussion. There are also a few here that run SCCA club racing and DEs of many sanctioning bodies.

These exercises are all "whatcha done for me lately", not what someone else did 20-30 years ago in a car somewhat similar to mine.

Thanks for bringing up this old thread, tho

Too many people measure acceleration in one direction. You need to measure it in all directions. That's why AX is a popular standard.

If all you want is drag racing, there are cheaper ways to go "faster."

What a 914 gives you is a balanced performance car right out of the box. You could argue that it's handling is its strongest trait and the rest of the abilites rely upon the handling. Regardless, its a more complete way of looking at performance.

My advice for you (and for your car enthusiast buddies)....

Get a girlfriend,

1) if she likes 914s, and she can make a lot of money, keep both her and the car.
2) if she likes 914s but clearly you're the bread winner, hopefully she's cute and you can get her in next year's 914 calendar.
3) if she doesn't like 914s - dump her.

I hope this helps you get through college.

...yahthatsright: just let your 165 x 15s get nice and slick, and 85 HP should be just right for hanging out with these guys. Just watch out for the Drift Patrol