Hi everybody,
have a mysterious suspension problem.
Sometimes on a bumpy road the car is shaking a bit side to side.
Changed the tie rods to turbo style, mounted bump steer kit, adjusted the toe in to factory spec, every screw connection is fastened. what else can i do (check)?

Any body know this problem or the remedy?

I am sure it is not the bump steer problem!!!

was it aligned afterword?

is your car lowered? thus you used a bumpsteer kit?

Define shaky. like going over bump in curve and the wheel trys to jerk out your hands. or like shake and shimmy like tire out of balance or wheel bearing loose.

it feels like the whole front of the car is moving from left to right. fast and short .

Not the shaking steering wheel if the car is lowered to much. The steering wheel is not moving while the symptom is happening.
It is realy hard to explain

lug nuts tight? new tires grabbing grooves of road?

Rain grooves in driving surface?

Shitty roads

Poor quality / old tires tracking in ruts / grooves.

Loose wheel bearings

To much toe (neutral or out)

Check rear trailing arm bushings for detoriation..

Check front bushings for same

tires are new.

wheel bearings not checked till now but no abnormal noise from them.

Toe in adjusted to factory spec 20` (+- 10`)

A-Arm buschings and trailing arm bushing not checked now. How is this done?

a forgot: anti roll bar in, no difference!

shocks?

Bent wheel?

QUOTE (michelko @ Nov 1 2005, 10:39 AM)

tires are new. wheel bearings not checked till now but no abnormal noise from them. Toe in adjusted to factory spec 20` (+- 10`) A-Arm buschings and trailing arm bushing not checked now. How is this done?

For rears....put on lift....try to push wheels sideways...watch trailing arm attachment (especially the inner attachement) for movement

For fronts, the same principle...but wheel would move more fore and aft around the torsion bar ends. You would have to carefully watch the attachment points

The wheel bearing check is not noise....it would be rocking the wheel in a vertical plane to see if they were loose....grab top and bottom and try to rock them to see if there is any movement about the spindle.

Hey, we're guessing here.

You said the steering wheel doesn't shake...you said the car darts back and forth while holding a straight line.... Please correct me if I am wrong......

Yea, I agree now it sounds like you need to go inspect stuff.
I bet loose wheel bearings
followed by worn suspension: shocks, bushings or mounting points in that order.

How wide are the front wheels and where is the caster set at???

Erik

I chased a shimmy for quite a while...

I changed everything...

I found two things.
First was the bottom of the strut tube where the ball joint is installed, the round hole that the ball joint slides into was out of round...this created a wobble .

The second was simple, but annoying.
The rear of the torsion bars has a felt washer over it. It ensures that the torsion bar stays centered.

Well, after 30 years, the felt is gone...I replaced it with a rubber washer. This stopped the clunk.

Rich

QUOTE (SLITS @ Nov 1 2005, 10:54 AM)

QUOTE (michelko @ Nov 1 2005, 10:39 AM) tires are new. wheel bearings not checked till now but no abnormal noise from them. Toe in adjusted to factory spec 20` (+- 10`) A-Arm buschings and trailing arm bushing not checked now. How is this done? For rears....put on lift....try to push wheels sideways...watch trailing arm attachment (especially the inner attachement) for movement For fronts, the same principle...but wheel would move more fore and aft around the torsion bar ends. You would have to carefully watch the attachment points The wheel bearing check is not noise....it would be rocking the wheel in a vertical plane to see if they were loose....grab top and bottom and try to rock them to see if there is any movement about the spindle. Hey, we're guessing here. You said the steering wheel doesn't shake...you said the car darts back and forth while holding a straight line.... Please correct me if I am wrong......

Yes there is a little play if i rock the wheel in vertical.
But i thought it´s normal my BMW makes the same thing and hasn´t the shaking.

And yes, the steering wheel is stady, it is the body of the car that is moving from side to side (not front to rear).

btw. thanks for all the tips. much work for the next weekend

After some inspection of the suspension parts, changing (again) the shocks, allignement, wheel bearing etc. i can´t find anything wrong with the mechanic, so i think its a problem of the tub itself.

I read about a mercedes cabrio that made this shaky also when driving over a railway crossing.

I purchased the Engmann-kit months ago, i will mount it over the winter.

I am in the hope that this will cure the problem.

Unfortunately i don´t know any other running 914 in the area to take a test drive .

vertical wheel shake on the front tires is the ball joint.

Have a friend shake the wheels while you feel the bottom of the strut tube...it was really hard to find, and really hard to feel, but a little wobble or shake in the lower ball joint will be drastic on the road...

Rich

Had the wandering thing also. Tie rod ends were shot, replaced with turbo tie rods, wandering reduced but not gone. Checked front end by jacking up one side at a time, and grabbing the wheel, shake back and forth, up and down and found out the ball joints were bad.

After new ball joints, things got much better, but still had some play which was from the wheel bearings not being tight enough. Tightened the bearings and now the car is nice and tight.

Spoke

QUOTE (Spoke @ Nov 13 2005, 08:31 PM)

Had the wandering thing also. Tie rod ends were shot, replaced with turbo tie rods, wandering reduced but not gone. Checked front end by jacking up one side at a time, and grabbing the wheel, shake back and forth, up and down and found out the ball joints were bad. After new ball joints, things got much better, but still had some play which was from the wheel bearings not being tight enough. Tightened the bearings and now the car is nice and tight. Spoke

maybe that balljoint way is something i could try out bevore i throw it away . they are not too expensive.

Hey Rich... Check this out!

I agree with Rich. This is a problem that Porsche has recognized and posted in their Upfixen series. Early ball joints can wallow out the bottom of the strut causing exactly what you are describing.

Also, sounds like you need to either tighten or replace your wheel bearings based on this comment...

QUOTE

Yes there is a little play if i rock the wheel in vertical.

purchased already a set of new wheel bearings. This weekend i willl check/replace the ball joints.

I would mount the rear tires on the front and front on the rear and drive it.
Nothing changes nothing lost , no money spent?
Then start throwing around parts money, wheel bearings, ball joints, etc.
my 2 centavos.

QUOTE (Brotherbob @ Nov 16 2005, 09:36 AM)

I would mount the rear tires on the front and front on the rear and drive it. Nothing changes nothing lost , no money spent? Then start throwing around parts money, wheel bearings, ball joints, etc. my 2 centavos.

I have this shaky feeling since i bought the car.
It was fitted with 41/2" Steel Wheels with gigantic 165 winter-Tires, now 51/2 wheels with 185 summer-tires : no change

totaly shot boge shocks allaround, now new koni: no change

rusted through hell hole and rocker, now complete solid tub: no change

old standard tie rods, now new turbo-tie rods: no change

different toe in settings tested: no change

Things to check or change:

Ball-joints
wheel bearings
A-Arm bushings

Will do this next weekend

Is the car a 1970?
I chased what I thought was a caster shimmy for months. It was at 50 to 55 mph. And some shaking also. This was after moving up to 205/50 tires. I finally changed out the front struts and ball joints to a 74 models. The hubcentric feature fixed the problem.
Bill Kohnke

Hey hey

Lots of good advice here...I have personaly seen an early 914 lower ball joint wobble in its socket....
My 914 had a bitch of a "sideways" wobble after hitting a railway track at an angle...my new Koni's diddn't fit quite right in the tube or loose in its own insert, 6 and 12 oclock movement when the car was jacked and shock fully extended. Switching to Boge fixed this. in the ass end my trailing arm bushings were OK but took them apart anyways...good thing, my near pearfect car had rust on the inside shafts so deep the rubber bushing where just being squished around...

These 2 things made all the differents in the car, very hard to check and find.

Ich liebe Ihr Auto

Later

QUOTE (Bill Kohnke @ Nov 17 2005, 04:56 AM)

Is the car a 1970? I chased what I thought was a caster shimmy for months. It was at 50 to 55 mph. And some shaking also. This was after moving up to 205/50 tires. I finally changed out the front struts and ball joints to a 74 models. The hubcentric feature fixed the problem. Bill Kohnke

Yes it is a 1970 car.

I am looking for a 5 lug conversion. Only missing parts are new break calipers.

Don´t know if try first with new ball joints or buy new 911 calipers and 2 more fuchs and do the five lug now

ball joints are cheaper.



BTW Thanks for all the good advices. I love the Club!

My '70 had the exact symptom yours has, and just like everyone here has mentioned, the ball joint was loose in the strut. New later style struts using the wedge pin solved the problem. But I wanted to mention a couple things that I've read here that I disagree with. First, I cant believe the problem is in the tub. After the work you did restoring it, you probably the most solid tub on the planet. Second, people have suggested tightening the wheel bearings as a means of removing play. I think that is dangerous. Front bearings are tightened to 1 ft-lb (please do the N-m conversion). If they are still loose then the bearings and/or spindle is worn and should be replaced. Overtightening the bearings risks disaster. Feel for a groove on the under side of the spindle. good luck

Hi everybody,
thhis weekend i did some improvements on the front suspension.
I changend the ball joints and the wheel bearings.

As they looked, they were the first ones. Original mounted in Stuttgart

Opening the nuts that hold the ball joints was areal disaster

With the right tool an an impact wrench a 1/2 hour of work....
nothing happened.

Weapons of choice:

then i decided to grind out the big nuts with a dremel. Fortunately i bought a set of that stupid nuts time ago.

old stuff

and the new ones

driver side

and after half an hour of grinding

the new one in

after a short testdrive i decided to change the wheel bearings also.

Unfortunately no pics of that work.

The shaky was a mix of a bunch of worn parts. Every step (Tierods, Ball joints, wheel bearings) made cured the shaky a little more.

Couldn´t do extensive test driving because of snow

but till now this is an complete different car now.

QUOTE (michelko @ Nov 27 2005, 11:22 PM)

Opening the nuts that hold the ball joints was areal disaster With the right tool an an impact wrench a 1/2 hour of work.... nothing happened. Weapons of choice:

Where did you get the tool for removing the ball joint nut? I think this is the first time I have seen the "special" tool, other than in my Haynes manual. I remember the one Dave Hunt made up from pipe fittings.

I used an adjustable pipe wrench to remove them on my car.

QUOTE (maf914 @ Nov 28 2005, 06:09 AM)

QUOTE (michelko @ Nov 27 2005, 11:22 PM) Opening the nuts that hold the ball joints was areal disaster With the right tool an an impact wrench a 1/2 hour of work.... nothing happened. Weapons of choice: Where did you get the tool for removing the ball joint nut? I think this is the first time I have seen the "special" tool, other than in my Haynes manual. I remember the one Dave Hunt made up from pipe fittings. I used an adjustable pipe wrench to remove them on my car.

i bought it from guy that is remanufacturing several parts, like tools, suspension bearings, caster shims, etc.
I bought it before i saw the idea with the pipe fittings, on the other side 20 Euro are not to much for this rare tool

Also on german ebay those tools appear from time to time.

Unfortunately in my case the tool doesn´t help anything to remove the nuts.

For torquing down the new nuts it was very helpfull.

where do you get your parts? do you go down to mittelmotor?

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 28 2005, 08:44 AM)

where do you get your parts? do you go down to mittelmotor?

Yes sometimes. But i have some .. lets say not so good experiences with them.
So i try to find my stuff at other dealers. There is one called "914 Ersatzteile Versand".

Only the best experiences, ultra fast shipping, good prices.
Some parts are direct from Porsche. In Mannheim, 30km away there is an porsche agency.

Ebay is also a good source for new and almost used parts. It´s in the mix.

Hi guys,
think i found the problem.
excesive low ride! There are some rubber pieces mounted n the struts.
there was to less room for the strut to move free if i hit a little larger bump. I turned the spindels higher an made a test drive. Nearly now shaky anymore

But now the car looks like a stork

Maybe the rubber things can be cut a little?

The bump stops. Are they the solid ones or the ones that look like three donuts stacked on top of each other?

QUOTE (sj914 @ Mar 24 2006, 04:06 AM)

The bump stops. Are they the solid ones or the ones that look like three donuts stacked on top of each other?

bump stops... the right description. yes the donuts.

brad told me to cut the bump stop in half. liberal ammounts of penetrant, and your air chisel placed in one of the tangs on the capturing nuts, will run the nut off in 15 seconds. prob less. using a dremel seems like a bunch of work. for others that haven't done this, loosen the nut but leave it on. this makes it easier to pull the top of the ball joint out of the strut tube after you remove the bolt.

k

I use a pipe wrench and then put gobs of anti sieze on my ball joint at the nut when installed.

Michael,
call me
Phone number is locate on my homepage
Is very difficult to explain this phenomenon.

Wilco

QUOTE (michelko @ Mar 24 2006, 06:35 AM)

bump stops... the right description. yes the donuts

are they the 3-piece ones? what brand are your shocks?

you should be able to cut 1/3 for sure, on any brand shock. on some, up to 2/3 ...

here's what i did:
jack up the front, unload the suspension, remove top nut, remove bump stop rubber, press the shaft all the way into the shock until it hits the bottom, mark the shaft where it enters the shock.
remount shock (don't forget the bump stop). once the shock is fastend, the distance from the top sheetmetal to the mark on the shaft is the absolute minimum of rubber you have to leave on the bump stop.
you should actually leave a bit more as the rubber compresses. the mark is where the shock will bottom out internally and if that happens, your shock will break.

this way, you get a really good idea on how much of the bump stop you can cut off, regardless of the brand of your shocks ...
Andy

PS: makes any sense? if you want, i can repeat it in german ...

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Mar 24 2006, 09:43 AM)

QUOTE (michelko @ Mar 24 2006, 06:35 AM) bump stops... the right description. yes the donuts are they the 3-piece ones? what brand are your shocks? you should be able to cut 1/3 for sure, on any brand shock. on some, up to 2/3 ... here's what i did: jack up the front, unload the suspension, remove top nut, remove bump stop rubber, press the shaft all the way into the shock until it hits the bottom, mark the shaft where it enters the shock. remount shock (don't forget the bump stop). once the shock is fastend, the distance from the top sheetmetal to the mark on the shaft is the absolute minimum of rubber you have to leave on the bump stop. you should actually leave a bit more as the rubber compresses. the mark is where the shock will bottom out internally and if that happens, your shock will break. this way, you get a really good idea on how much of the bump stop you can cut off, regardless of the brand of your shocks ... Andy PS: makes any sense? if you want, i can repeat it in german ...

Hi Andy,
nice description. No need to say it in german again

I will try this after some more testdriving. Just to be sure it was the real problem.

Shocks are Boge but i also tryed adjustable Koni red. there was no major difference in the behavior.