...that involve the Ginther style windshield.
Anyone know where to get them?
E Mod beckons.....there is 100 lbs to loose maybe more.

I don't know for certain..
but I kinda remember GT racing having them.

EXCEPT for the windshield.... A few of the local race cars have cut the top and weighed everything to find way less than 100lbs savings.

In fact I think AJRS was telling me more like 25lbs savings.
but that would have been on a teener with lexan windshield already and thinned or skinned roof panel.


I considered this... but I'm too much of a softie when it comes to rain. Guess I'm getting old and soft.

brant

I know Randal is looking, too.

maybe he knows


KT

Don't do it JP...

One day you may want to run it on a track.

Lots of guys run the Ginther style on the track....I'll need a new helmet of course.

I'm also eyeballin' the basket handle. I know where to get those in FG. Come to think of it, there would be the guy to ask....

GT-Racing sells them, Getty DOES NOT, AIR does, HPH does. GT-Racing is the only place that sells the original style plastic ones.

I'm with Paul on this one JP....If you ever decide to track it, them bugs hit you awfully hard in the helmet, not to mention the wind noise....

Besides, your car looks nice and elegant the way it's set up right now. Just cut out the passenger floor and the dash metal, should be lotsa weight to lose there!

Don't listen to me, I'm a tail draggin SOB....

Bill P.

Talking to the racers to Laguna over the weekend they mentioned that the Ginther screen wasn't just about weight savings. It was more about aerodynamics.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 1 2005, 07:30 PM)

Lots of guys run the Ginther style on the track....

most racing organizations don't allow them anymore unless you have a car with proven racing history ...

meaning, you can run a car that was chopped years ago and has been raced, but you can't run a newly chopped one ...

having said that, i know a certain "Bradholio" that has a original ginther screen stashed away ...
Andy

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Nov 1 2005, 07:05 PM)

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 1 2005, 07:30 PM) Lots of guys run the Ginther style on the track.... most racing organizations don't allow them anymore unless you have a car with proven racing history ... meaning, you can run a car that was chopped years ago and has been raced, but you can't run a newly chopped one ... having said that, i know a certain "Bradholio" that has a original ginther screen stashed away ... Andy

That correct. PCA Club Racing won't allow it anymore.

As far as aero, I would say a car with a w/s and roof would be faster on the top end than a no w/s and a bunch of bars screwing up the air flow.

Paul

I just weighed some glass:

Front Window - 23 lbs.
Rear Window - 8 lbs.

Elegant?......damn. How can I do this now?

My friend said he was just as fast with the windshield as with the Ginther screen. He can legally run both ways, but usually runs with the windshield because the other 914s have to and he doesn't want to hear whining about an unfair advantage.

AJRS pays a lot of attention to aero JP.
and 99% of his cars have raked windshields, but not chopped.

they bring the base of the windshield out to the edge of the front hood.
makes those fresh air vents into the dash top.
They run the vegas oval and found a raked windshield much better for aero than a ginther.

the AJRS chopped roof cars don't run ginther screens.
they run trick metal tonneau covers that are very flush and don't distrupt.

(off the record, AJ himself told me two other undercarriage mods that pick up 7mph on the vegal oval)

don't chop it for aero.
chop it if you want to for weight or for appearance, but not for aero

do lexan glass, and a thinned top.
you'll have medium rain protection and save 25 out of the possible 45lbs, and still have a top on it for future track excursions....

brant

I agree -- if you must -- Lexan windshield, f/g targa bar, skin top... FWIW I don't think SCCA (road racing GCR's) or POC let in new Ginther chopped cars either these days, without a fugly front roll hoop.

I have seen a few 91x's that were 'flat bottomed' and had other trick splitters and diverter doo-dads that apparently can make quite the difference at the top end, iff'n you know what you're doing aerodynamics-wise and/or have plenty of time and $$$ for trial & error.

I figure I'm several years away in driving ability to even be able to notice the difference...

you could make a few timed runs with and without the windshield to see what effects it has....

I believe the number 100 car of Andrew Blyholder that got TTOD just about every event down here is not running a front windshield, he still has the frame

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 1 2005, 07:43 PM)

Elegant?......damn. How can I do this now?

An elegant 914?

Oxymoron.

Well... That sucks, since my windshield is chopped. I'm not sure where the reason is for not allowing it.

Safety?

I just looked at the PCA rules, I don't see anything in there that says you can't run cars w/o windshields. Just says, that if you don't have one, then you have to have a closed faced helmet.

do it JP.

No doubt it'd be cooler & lighter if you did it & your cage would suffice the PCA's front rollover regs.

But you'd never want to run it in the rain, which is like 9 months worth up here.


Although i'd love to take pic's of ya with some flying goggles & leather cap. Now there's a calander pic idea!

QUOTE (Terrance @ Nov 2 2005, 02:52 PM)

Well... That sucks, since my windshield is chopped. I'm not sure where the reason is for not allowing it. Safety? I just looked at the PCA rules, I don't see anything in there that says you can't run cars w/o windshields. Just says, that if you don't have one, then you have to have a closed faced helmet.

I mentioned that to Tony and I "thought" he said it was okay and that for PCA there was no need for the "grandfather" ruling.

I'd ask the powers that be about it in the clubs you plan on running in.

Hopefully he gets to your cage soon....I'm waiting for a roll bar to be built for my car at the same time....

Mike,

I think people assume that with no windshield, you can't run if you have the "Ginther look" to it, as in just a roll hoop and rear down bars. Mine will have the main hoop, rear down tubes, and a bar from both top sides of the main hoop to the front mini hoop over the dash area. I think it should pass....

I just posted the following on the PP RAce and A/X board...

"PCA Club Racing rules question...

Is it legal for a 914 or 911 Targa to run WITHOUT a windshield?

I don't mean an older grandfathered in car but if you were to build a new car now.

Anyone know, for sure, without a doubt?

Yes or No.

Thanks"


See if we get an answer

So far I've had a couple of replys of guys saying they have seen cars w/o w/s.

I'll keep trying...

Man JP, I don't know about that. It rains up here. I'd worry about how long it would take to add 100# of movable ballast. New standard equipment would be a bailing can.

Dave

QUOTE (DNHunt @ Nov 3 2005, 05:38 AM)

New standard equipment would be a bailing can. Dave

A few well placed 1/4" holes works fine.

It rains alot in Florida too.

I just emailed the Rules Director for PCA Club Racing to get a answer.

Paul

Normally, I'd agree that drain holes would be a good idea. Problem is it might sink in some of the medium to large puddles.

Dave

paul,

I'm still interested in what you find out.
I think it is legal for PCA

I'm not as clear about the SCCA ruling though.
I think its SCCA, that may or may not allow it for road racing.

I've heard the scca rule interpreted in two different ways:
1) only already log booked cars can be cut. No new applications for log books will be allowed.

2) only years of cars that already allowed this, and no newly built cars. ie: all 914's could cut because it had been allowed previously on 914's, but no honda S2000's because it had never been allowed on S2000's.

I have no idea which is correct. Just what I've heard. I've never bothered to find out since it didn't apply to me.
I'd still love to hear what you find out from PCA, since it more directly does apply to me. My guess is that it is legal in PCA, because I have read that rule book many many times, and never noticed that it was not legal.

A friend of mine built a Vintage (legal there for sure) 914 with a ginther screen about 3 years ago. And then went to PCA after the fact, and they allowed him in.

can't wait to hear your findings.
I struggled with this same decision in my project a few years back. I can't afford a closed trailer, which would have probably put me over on the other side of the arguement.

(the trailer is within reach, but another tow vehicle is not)

brant

This is the PCA rule book and it does not address the issue directly.
Looks like no w/s is legal.

http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/docs/pca_r..._rules_2005.pdf

Paul

You guys can't see the real problem. He's gonna have Das Boot II or the Yellow Submarine.

Dave

Doods!
We don't go out in the rain. If it starts while we're out, we go home to the warm dry shop & start toweling off the shitbox.
I have no side or rear windows, no windshield wipers, no rain shielding above the carbs....I missed 3-4 AXs this year because of the rain. Slicks *really* hate wet conditions.....the wider, the worser.

JP...

Elegance...Elegance...drill out some more of the car instead....

or just cut that thing right off...

Hey...if it makes you happy, it's what it's all about!

Bill P.

Or I know a certain "tub" that is available....I hear it's really light too!...raised suspension, semi-tube....

hehe...

Bill P.

Bill:
It's just a vision at this point.
It all comes down to that moment when you have the sawsall or other implement of destruction in your hands ready to make the first cut (or what ever). Sometimes I chicken out long before that. Sometimes I lay there hammer in hand ...."do I really want to do this?" and sometimes "Oh shit, what have I done?"

As you're aware (WAG), once you've committed, being stubborn & stupid can win out over talent and carry thru to a semi-suitable conclusion. I will admit I depend on stuborness
entirely too often and it has gotten me into a fine mess in the past.

My biggest problem is time....do I have enuff to get this done in 4-5 months. DWD has already got me by the throat. This I know you understand.

One thing I have learned. One old car is enuff for one old guy. If I ever build another car, it won't be based on 30 year old suspension.....unless it was really trick at the time

Hi JP,

If you're never going to track it, seems like cutting it off is a viable option, but I'd seriously look at ridding yourself of the targa bar at the same time...just use Sheridan's f/g piece to make it look good!

Lotsa weight lost for sure!

Bill P.

Yes, Mr Sheridan planted that seed about a year ago....the sneaky SOB
The quailty of his bits added fertilizer.....I'm doomed, doomed I tell ya.
I'd have to work a buncha OT to pay for this shit. This idea really sux......then again, I'm makin' a few bucks day trading my wifes money (my VIP). Since I'll never get to retire, this is my only shot of getting any good out of it.