Is it possible to go to bigger calipers without going 5-lug? Basically I am really cheap and don't know if I want to buy all new wheels and tires. So can it be done?

QUOTE (brokenmoped @ Nov 8 2005, 11:00 PM)

Basically I am really cheap

no...

you can put any brake you want on the car (brembo, wilwood, ap, porsche, etc.), but it all costs money. Why do you want bigger brakes? Have you considered a 19mm master cylinder?

I want the stopping power of a new car. Not a 30 year old car. I recently rear-ended someone who slammed on their brakes and in my last car I would've been fine, but I guess I wasn't used to my brakes enough. At that point I only had the car for a month.

Are there any sites that sell bigger calipers for our cars?

IMO, you'll never match the ability of power-assisted brakes....the vaccuum from the power booster is what makes teh world of difference....

unless you have bigger brakes, a bigger MC is just going to make your foot work harder...


b

QUOTE (brokenmoped @ Nov 9 2005, 12:20 AM)

Are there any sites that sell bigger calipers for our cars?

bigger calipers alone won't do you much good ...
people have successfully adapted calipers from other car makes tho.

for a stock car, the stock brake system is good enough, if in good working condition.
basically, if you can lock the front wheels, you got good enough brakes and you'll have to look for more stopping power somewhere else.

like wider tires or softer compound tires, less weight etc.
Andy

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 9 2005, 12:23 AM)

IMO

hey Britt, thanks for hanging out with us "lame" folks tonight!

Andy

The stock brakes should be more than enough. I've locked the brakes before on the stock ones. It's mostly user error or just not used to the brakes of the car that makes people think they don't have enough brakes.

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Nov 9 2005, 01:26 AM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 9 2005, 12:23 AM) IMO hey Britt, thanks for hanging out with us "lame" folks tonight! Andy

uh, andy i just miss miles....and Z

k?

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 9 2005, 12:27 AM)

uh, andy i just miss miles....and Z

we all do (in one way or the other) ...

Andy

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Nov 8 2005, 11:26 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 9 2005, 12:23 AM) IMO hey Britt, thanks for hanging out with us "lame" folks tonight! Andy

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Nov 9 2005, 12:25 AM)

QUOTE (brokenmoped @ Nov 9 2005, 12:20 AM) Are there any sites that sell bigger calipers for our cars? bigger calipers alone won't do you much good ... people have successfully adapted calipers from other car makes tho. for a stock car, the stock brake system is good enough, if in good working condition. basically, if you can lock the front wheels, you got good enough brakes and you'll have to look for more stopping power somewhere else. like wider tires or softer compound tires, less weight etc. Andy

Andy,

Can't he buy a more sticky brake pad? Or is their such a thing?

I worry more about brake fade... that's why i'm going to upgrade.....

Well it definitely was user error in my case. And it was an expensive error at that. What's an alternative way besides bigger calipers to increase braking? Kevlar pads or something?

Rebuild the entire system if you have *any* doubts.

Add ss flexible lines, high quality brake fluid, speed bleeders and aggressive brake pads.

I have awesome brakes based on stock calipers, rotors and master cylinder.

Zero brake fade after 20 minute track sessions.



KT

QUOTE (brokenmoped @ Nov 8 2005, 11:35 PM)

Well it definitely was user error in my case. And it was an expensive error at that. What's an alternative way besides bigger calipers to increase braking? Kevlar pads or something?

Don't be insulted, but learning the limits of your cars brake system is a start. You can throw money at your car in performance parts, but without learning to drive your car and finding your limitations, you'll just be wasting more $$$$.

If you locked up your tires, what you're really looking for is more tire, not more brakes. Or just practice what is called "threshold braking". Locking up your wheels is the worst way to stop a car.

brokenmoped, we're on the same page. this time last year, i locked my wheels up and had a huge wreck too. I'm still driving the same 914 body, with a new front-end.

it's all cool. I hope you get it fixed. If you live close, shoot me a pm. i have extra parts.


b

the stock /4 brakes are just as big or bigger than many modern cars believe it or not that weigh even more than your 914.... one advantage most modern cars have is at least the front brakes are vented.


I'd say most 914s that have crappy brakes have crappy mechanics that have not properly maintained the car and don't know how to bleed the brakes...fix them correctly, learn how to use them and you'll be surprised....

Hey Britt, how about hitting the gym and putting some muscles on them little chicken legs of yours??? hahahaha

how big do you want go?
12+" vented rotors for my car....why?, 'cause I can

Mueller,


I know its from a Mazda, but what model did the cailper come from?

nobody mentioned better shocks. Keep the tiar on the ground. better street/autocross pads do wonders. and as mentioned BETTER tires.

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 9 2005, 06:00 AM)

Hey Britt, how about hitting the gym and putting some muscles on them little chicken legs of yours??? hahahaha

mueller, i dont get it? where did that come from? you owe me dinner.

b

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Nov 9 2005, 07:43 AM)

better street/autocross pads do wonders. and as mentioned BETTER tires.

One of the problems with getting those more aggressive brake pads is they need a little heat in them before they really start to grab. So if he's going to just be driving on the street, I'd say stay with stock-ish pads, and go for the better tires (and learn the limits of the car, and not tailgate, do proper maintenance, etc...)

I don't exactly agree. NOT all pads are created equal. Whatever pads are on my car (I was told Porterfield R4S) Stop right now! stone cold. Get them warm and they are very nice.
Way better than the stock stuff or other street pads I have used.

My first braking system upgrade was Ferrodo pads, a 19mm MC and SS lines - I needed new pads anyhow, so I was happy with the Ferrodo pads.. I wanted a firmer pedal feel, and thus swapped out the MC and SS lines.. This was fine for a while (my car had, at that time, a 2.6 "big four" in it).. Got used to them and their limitations, and decided that the engine needed more brakes. (the key to going fast is having good brakes!).

Enter the BMW 320 front caliper conversion. I've gotta tell you, this improved the cars' braking measurably, not to mention the pedal feel is great combined with all of the previous modifications. Drove the car with the new brakes, a new suspension and a rebuilt 2.6 for a few months, and then the crankshaft broke.. so in went a mostly stock, but brand new 2.0L.. I've given the car some hot suppers this past summer, and deduce that I want to replace the stock proportioning valve with an adjustable one, as I feel the car has too much up front. not much more, but I'd like a more balanced braking. While it's apart, might as well put in new hard lines out back and a new set of rotors & pads!

One can never have enough brakes, especially up here in the Northeast where the general population seems to think pulling out in front of vintage cars is a great idea. (did they not see the Saturn Yellow car coming towards them???)

But, I agree with others in that you should learn the limitations and base modifications upon your needs. That, and it is amazing the difference air in the lines makes towards overall performance.... Proper bleeding will erradicate most of the common problems people encounter with their 914 braking system. Also, proper venting clearance in the rear is imperative.

Cheers,

-greg-

QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Nov 9 2005, 05:42 AM)

Mueller, I know its from a Mazda, but what model did the cailper come from?

RX-7 turbo II...'86 is the vintage I believe....
and currently for sale in the classified section.......

I'm with Trekkor. I know Joe's one of the fastest guys on the planet but I wouldn't recommend AutoX pads for street. You'd probably end up in the back of another car waiting for the pad compound to warm up.

Look at the entire system from Master Cylinder to brake pads. Your stock 914 brake system should be enough to scare the hell out of you and offer up a firm guarantee that your passenger will never get in the car with you again.

My guess is you locked them up. Someone else recommended a bigger patch on the ground (tires). Good suggestion. A good working 914 brake system should be able to lock them up almost instantly. With larger meat that may be a problem but... if you locked them up. Your brakes don't need adjusting your braking style does (I'll give you that... it's hard to be Mr. Perfect brake modulator in a panic stop. I doubt if I could do it.)

If you didn't lock them up then there's something wrong with them. Pads are worn. Rears may not be working. Pads may be el Cheapo metallic jobbie doos made for silence but not stopping prowess. May need to be bled. May need a MC rebuild.

They don't come any cheaper than Matt... So... if he's calling you out and you really are a CSOB, keep what you have and get proper pads and bleed them properly (have Matt help you). You can QUICKLY get over your head when sorting out big brakes for a teener.

QUOTE

I was told Porterfield R4S

That would make sense. I believe that's their street pad. Excellent choice. They way you autocross I'm suprised you don't have an even more agressive pad.

why dont you just answer the poor guys question instead of trying to sell him you opinion on what he should do. I put volvo calipers on and it helped the stopping power. I will match my brakes to any stock brakes any time. most fast people dont need the best brakes that is why they are fast.

Bernie

QUOTE (bernbomb914 @ Nov 9 2005, 03:47 PM)

why dont you just answer the poor guys question instead of trying to sell him you opinion on what he should do. I put volvo calipers on and it helped the stopping power. I will match my brakes to any stock brakes any time. most fast people dont need the best brakes that is why they are fast. Bernie

bernie - whats the pad overhang look like with SC rotors?

and are there any performance pads available for volvos?

You talkin ta me?

I thought I did...

QUOTE

Basically I am really cheap

How much would your system cost him vs. what I recommended? Did I try to sell him anything?

And do stock brakes suck on a stock car? I was under the impression they are better than most of the brakes supplied on most of the cars today...

I put the first volvo calipers on for less than $75.00. I was not talking to anyone special but if you look back to his origional question everyone tried to change his mind instead of answering his question.

aaron the pad overhang is minor and will not cause any problems. you can grind the lining off on a angle if it bothers you

Bernie

QUOTE (bernbomb914 @ Nov 9 2005, 03:47 PM)

why dont you just answer the poor guys question instead of trying to sell him you opinion on what he should do. I put volvo calipers on and it helped the stopping power. I will match my brakes to any stock brakes any time. most fast people dont need the best brakes that is why they are fast. Bernie

I know that was directed at E

but I wouldn't recommend anything but direct replacement parts for now until he knows why he wants or needs bigger brakes....I know the Volvo calipers work, but do we know this guys mechanical know-how?

QUOTE

What's an alternative way besides bigger calipers to increase braking?

Damn it Bernie... will ya answer his question without trying to sell him on your opinion?

Sorry... musta snuck one of them smartass pills in that last handfull.

(it's a joke Bernie... a joke!)

HA! HA!

Hey! Nice ass!!

i've got bmw 528 calipers on the front of mine.....i think they bolt up to a 4 lug right? if they do they are for sale! a lower center of gravity helps the braking as well

How many times do we have to go over braking?

The formula for friction force doesn't have surface area in it. Look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction

That means your greater pad area isn't doing squat to help you stop.

I suspect that your "better braking" is caused by one of two things:

1. You have newer calipers with newer seals, newer pads, and fresh brake fluid.

2. You have reduced pedal effort due to larger bore cylinders in the caliper giving you better mechanical advantage (this can actually be dangerous if you have too much and are unable to effect enough movement to stop.)


Freshen up the stock system or go to the new hubs with vented rotors.
Those are the solutions to better braking on 914s while staying 4 lug. Or you could do something pretty innovative like Mueller's solution.

Most likely you have air in your system and/or older rotors or pads. I would freshen everything up and adjust the rears, and you'll be suprised how much better it is.

QUOTE (brokenmoped @ Nov 8 2005, 11:20 PM)

I want the stopping power of a new car. Not a 30 year old car. I recently rear-ended someone who slammed on their brakes and in my last car I would've been fine, but I guess I wasn't used to my brakes enough. At that point I only had the car for a month. Are there any sites that sell bigger calipers for our cars?

Sorry, but the REAL answer here is to improve your driving skills and judgement. You hit the car in front of you because you were going too fast and following to closely for conditions. I DO agree with several of the responses .......... Stock brakes in tip-top condition are MORE than sufficient for your needs in the street. As for the comment advocating switching to SS braided brake hoses: BAD MOVE. I would be happy to elaborate later, but I don't feel like ranting right now. The Cap'n

QUOTE (bernbomb914 @ Nov 9 2005, 03:00 PM)

I put the first volvo calipers on for less than $75.00. I was not talking to anyone special but if you look back to his origional question everyone tried to change his mind instead of answering his question. aaron the pad overhang is minor and will not cause any problems. you can grind the lining off on a angle if it bothers you Bernie

pad overhang isn't a problem until the two meet in the middle and keep the pads off the rotor. As long as this cannot happen, it's not a problem.

A lot of good responses. I've come to the conclusion that it was definitely my fault that I didn't know the limit of my brakes and I locked up the wheels and slammed into this guy. I'll go over the stock braking system and make sure everything is in shape and in working order before I start buying performance parts.

Eric - What I meant when I said I was cheap was that I didn't really want to upgrade to 5-lug wheels, hubs, etc when all I really wanted was bigger brakes. I figured you had to go to 911 hubs to use bigger calipers, but now I know (when it comes to brakes I really have very limited knowledge).

Another thing about bigger calipers...they're freakin cool looking! But if they aren't much of an improvement over a good condition stock caliper then who needs them.

Thanks for all the answers to my questions.

I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but I think the cheapest brake upgrade would be the BMW calipers (questionable effectiveness, search for all the rants), followed by the billet hubs available in our store. Those hubs with 911 vented rotors and 911 calipers will seriously increase your braking potential. But the billet hubs are a fairly expensive option, although cheaper that a full five lug swap.

Going out and spending some time practicing "emergency" braking in a large empty parking lot or back road (BE SAFE!) can be very educational.

"As for the comment advocating switching to SS braided brake hoses: BAD MOVE. I would be happy to elaborate later, but I don't feel like ranting right now. The Cap'n"



Stock brake lines are much better...I have this on recommendation of a 30+year Porsche trained mechanic.
He has been racing for 20+ years with very exotic 914s (tube framed with very big motors) and high HP 911s all with big brakes and stock brake lines.
There are some mechanical and physical reasons that are pretty involved but he has always advocated using stock Porsche rubber brake lines.

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 10 2005, 02:19 AM)

"As for the comment advocating switching to SS braided brake hoses: BAD MOVE. I would be happy to elaborate later, but I don't feel like ranting right now. The Cap'n" Stock brake lines are much better...I have this on recommendation of a 30+year Porsche trained mechanic. He has been racing for 20+ years with very exotic 914s (tube framed with very big motors) and high HP 911s all with big brakes and stock brake lines. There are some mechanical and physical reasons that are pretty involved but he has always advocated using stock Porsche rubber brake lines.

I've seen 3-4 failures with SS flex hoses...one bug was a write off.

I'll never use SS hoses.

I've never seen a rubber hose fail (they will overtime swell shut) unless it was cut, etc. by improper install.

I believe Britain Smith had one burst on him while bleeding the brakes. But I'm not disputing SS vs Stock, just clarity.

QUOTE (brokenmoped @ Nov 9 2005, 09:57 PM)

A lot of good responses. I've come to the conclusion that it was definitely my fault that I didn't know the limit of my brakes and I locked up the wheels and slammed into this guy. I'll go over the stock braking system and make sure everything is in shape and in working order before I start buying performance parts.

If the problem was that you locked up your tires and slid into the guy in front, then the problem wasn't your brakes, it was your TIRES (and the fact you were following too closely). The most any brakes on any car can do is lock up the tires. "Better" brakes only lock up the tires even faster, causing you to lose control even quicker.

It has been hashed over many times: brakes don't stop the car, tires stop the car. If you reach lock-up, you're at the absolute limit of the tires, not the brakes. You need better tires, and/or you need a front alignment with less camber (more of your tire flat on the ground, though this compromises cornering). Bigger (wider) tires are also not necessarily the answer, just something with a stickier compound.