Well it's been fun, I've learned a lot. But I have diddly to show for my efforts. It may be time admit defeat and to send this puppy down to Mark or Mike.

This is a 1.7 that has been sitting for 20 years. We've rebuilt the fuel system including a commercial cleaning of the injectors. She's getting gas on all 4 cylinders - checked by squirting into jars. Fuel pressure 40psi on steady crank. Even tried some cold start spray (sorry Cap'n - it was just a little bit and I was getting desparate).

We have spark on all 4. I'm too green to tell a good spark from a weak spark but it is at least hot enough to jump the gap.

Static timing has been set.

Mike suggested that the rings might be stuck in the pistons but I just put a compression checker on and I'm getting about 105 on the two cylinders I checked. That's gotta be enough to start it right? BTW that 105 was max swing on the needle - not the steady state between the pulses.

So I have fuel, air, spark, timing and compression. What else do I need? If it were way lean the spray should have fired it off. Perhaps too much gas and flooding?

On one past thread an old hand suggested it was stupid to try to start this engine without tearing it down but that seems a bit of a daunting task for me - my experience level goes to a clutch change but nothing more complicated than that. I also don't know what it would accomplish - other than clean up any rust or debris that might scratch the cylinder walls.

Anybody got a silver bullet for me?

even with crappy compression and an ether vapor boost, spark under compression may not spark. You'll get nada'.

If it were me i'd double check point gap and blow the few extra bucks on fresh plugs, points, cap , rotor, and wires and try it one more time. if you dont have points replace what you can...

with all that fuel and crap in there, even fresh plugs can get grounded out fairly quickly.

speaking from lots of 2 stroke experience....

edit: i'm surprised you can crank it over if it's been really sitting for 20 years..... if you can, fer sure load the cylinder walls with some sort of oil as best you can if you haven't already.

Some things to consider: the fuel pressure is supposed to be at 29psi, not 40psi. If it is 40psi it wont work. Exhaust? I had a similar problem that subsided after I set the fuel pressure and an exhaust system occlusion was purged from my exhaust system (flaming rag came flying out of my tail pipe after some failed attempts at starting )

These cars are often victims of compound problems, thus you have to find and fix everything that you can leaving no reasonable items unchecked because several little things equal one larger one.

I don't believe that an engien teardown is your destiny as there are too many unanswered questions.
Did you check:
- MPS
- Dizzy 180 out
- injector pluggs on wrong injectors
- Ground straps

Unfortunately Roger it's pretty much done, done and done. New plugs, cap, rotors and wires. They were actually done a few years back when my first son turned 16 he lost interest pretty quick so the car went back into hiding. My approach is that if they want to drive it they gotta work on it. Youngest is willing to do that so we are making progress. I'm actually not sure about the points but I probably would have done that. They look good - no pit.

Yes we did oil the cylinders through the spark plug hole before we started turning it over. Of course you can't get perfect coverage that way but it is better than dry.

QUOTE

even with crappy compression and an ether vapor boost, spark under compression may not spark

So if I follow you right I should approach it from the point of view of a weak spark and see what I can do to heat it up.

QUOTE (Dr Evil @ Nov 13 2005, 04:13 PM)

an exhaust system occlusion was purged from my exhaust system (flaming rag came flying out of my tail pipe after some failed attempts at starting )

Love it!

MPS. Checked with a meter. Actually had a broken lead that had to be replaced. So electrically it's all good.

Dizzy has been checked (again I had buggered it up). I haven't taken the rocker covers off to see if the dizzy drive may be in backwards but that is a pretty long shot. This thing was running great went I put it away.

Injector plugs. Just went out and checked and they are good. Pretty hard to get them mixed up.

ground strap. Looks like I replaced it sometime back. Don't remember that - but then again I have trouble remembering what I had for breakfast. It is not the original mesh. Battery grade round cable. Might be worth taking it off and cleaning it up but the engine is turning over reasonablly well - at least the starter is getting good juice.

I'll dial down the fuel pressure and see what happens. I suppose that could be flooding the engine.

Have you cranked it with the plugs out? That will sometimes blow out the old nasties.

Even with everything assbackward, you should still get something to fire once in a while. Anything?

we did a lot of cranking with the plugs out to get it lubricated before trying a hot start so anything that would come out should be out now.

Absolutely nothing - not a pop, cough or wheeze. The only thing we have gotten out of it was a backfire when the diz was improperly seated and we were spraying it with ether.

all i kow is if your spraying ether down the intake while turning it over, you've got no spark.

what's your point gap?
new coil? they do eventually go bad... borrow a known good one to check.

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Nov 13 2005, 05:38 PM)

all i kow is if your spraying ether down the intake while turning it over, you've got no spark.

perhaps to much ether and you don't get enough air to burn it. Sorta makes sense.

Haven't checked the points gap yet. I'll put it on the list.

Original coil so perhaps it is getting weak. Longhorn - you got your ears on?

got back at her today. main goal was to just turn down the fuel pressure. When I started to work on it thought the pressure was all over the place. It would run at 34, then would make wierd noises an run up to 40 for a few seconds and then drop back down. What really had me concerned is that there was a lot of air in the system from time to time. Where the heck is that coming from? Maybe scavanging in the tank? Not enough fuel in the tank - that would be embarassing. I've got about 4 gallons in there so I figured that was lots.

Other possibility is that pop off valve in the fuel pump. This is a used pump whose state was unknown. To test that I tried opening the pressure relief valve on the fuel pressure gauge and squirt into a jug. The pressure dropped off immediately, flow went to a trickle. Closed the valve and the pressure stayed down for a very long time before it slowly came back.

At least now I have some 'symptoms' to work with. I'll try putting some more fuel in then put the regulator through its range of motion and retry setting the pressure.

Wait a minute - maybe the regulator is the source of air? hmm ....

Regulator limits pressure from exceeding the set level, the pump brings it to that level. Thus, so long as the pressure is getting up to 29psi, you can figure that the regulator is the most likely faulty component. Air should not be able to find its way into the system. Both send and return lines in the tank are in the bottom and I would figure that 4gal would be sufficient to keep them wet. Are your fuel pump hoses hooked up correctly? Do you have the three hose model? Is your regulator plumbed the correct way? Perhaps a pic of the regulator installed will help us with that one.

Let me digest this post...this after a bottle of wine with my next door buddy

If you have spark, a shot of gas down the TB should have given you a quick fire....you sure you have spark right?

Wine goes right to my head...I'm such a cheap drunk

They always have air bubbles in the line...don't freak over that one.

Take the air cleaner off and squirt around 20ml gas down the TB and crank her over quick...if it has spark it should fire.

Next remove the injectors and with a pin press on the pintle and see if you can feel a little click.

Sounds to me like the firing order is backwards or the dizzy is not seated all the way (i.e. not turning). Easy check number one. Pull of the distributor cap and remember, take a picture, or make a drawing of where the rotor is pointing. Bump the starter and see if the rotor has moved. Now double check by grabbing the rotor and trying to turn it around by hand. Nice and tight? Doesn't turn? Good. Next I would switch the plug wires in an X pattern on the cap. Pull out #1 and swap it with #3, pull out #2 and swap it with #4. Try and start it.

Ya...what he said.

QUOTE

Wine goes right to my head...I'm such a cheap drunk

Hope your wife doesn't take advantage of that. - it was a great day for a bottle of wine and friends on the patio. Unfortunately my honey do list was a little long to kick back. Also didn't allow much time on the car.

QUOTE

If you have spark, a shot of gas down the TB should have given you a quick fire

thats the theory alright. I haven't put raw gas down the TB but the plugs come out smelling of gas and feeling a little damp so I think we have something in there. The work with the regulator was under the possibility that I was flooding it with that much pressure. I also did the bit with cranking the engine with the injectors out in jars back a while. They squirt. (had them cleaned up in Belleville). can also hear them clicking when I push the throttle.

QUOTE

you sure you have spark right?

Well I did at one time but I've been mucking around so much I really should check again. I can't say whether or not it is a strong one. Don't have anything to compare it to.

I did have the dizzy mucked up but I fixed that a while back. Firing order has been checked. It does go clockwise right? Also did the x pattern at the suggestion of Carlitos Way.

Dr Evil. The regulator has not been out of the car since it last ran. I have fuel pumping - just not behaving quite the way I'd expect. The adjustment was screwed right into the body - all the way. I've backed it off and brought the pressure down to about 30psi. I didn't feel comfortable backing it off much farther - not sure if there is a stop. Also threw in a bit more gas. Between the pressure and more gas the flow is much smoother now but not nice and steady. I haven't tried a start again - I want to work through things methodically before I have another go.

I'm back to my day job tomorrow so I likely won't get much done until next weekend. I'll report back when I give her another shot.

Sir Andy - what sort of picture were you thinking about - me going ?

Here's one of the dizzy drive shaft when I put it back in - TDC rotor pointing to #1.

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 20 2005, 06:38 PM)

Here's one of the dizzy drive shaft when I put it back in - TDC rotor pointing to #1.

assuming you took that pic from the pass. side, then it looks OK ...

but, you should really clean all that shit from the top of your motor.
if this is any indication for what it'll look like under the cooling(!) tin, if you ever get the motor to run, you'll probably kill it due to overheating within a week ...

that "stuff" tends to accumulate on top of your cylinder cooling fins and oil-cooler ...
Andy

Just went through this on an engine change. Had fuel (steady) and spark....couldn't even get a bang or a backfire.

Brought engine to TDC #1(at least thought I was) and figured that the distributor was 180 out. Pulled plug wires and advanced them 180 on the dizzy cap. Turned engine over and got singed by flames outta the TB.

Retarded wires 90 and the engine fired right up and has started every time since then.

I hear you Sir! Not only will there be shit in there but also a lost spark plug. That is on my winter to do list. Drop the engine. Take off the tin and clean out the engine. I've got a bunch of rustoration to go at too and it will be easier without the engine in the way. We really want to hear this thing at least cough before we drop it just to be sure we still have a viable engine. Working on a very restricted budget and would have to give up if there was major engine work to be done.

So the plugs are wet and cold.
You put oil in the cylinders.
You've been cranking it a LOT with a functioning fuel system and high fuel pressure.
You've also been putting a fair amount of ether in there and it still does nothing?
You've definately got a spark issue.
Try making sure the plugs are clean before trying to start the motor. I've had cases where the combination of all that fuel on the plugs and all that junk in the cylinders will put the flame right out.
Clean the plugs with brake clean and blow out with compressed air or just let them sit on the bench till they are dry.
If everything else is in order this might fix it.

Kelly

its an ignition problem...

It was done by your son over a year ago......

You need to confirm that the points and condensor are good...clean...and set properly.

Be methodical and go through a full tune up.

Make sure you are working with good parts and they are properly set up...point gap is set correctly.

Plug gap is set.

If the motor turns by hand...it will start.

Rich

QUOTE (r_towle @ Nov 20 2005, 07:32 PM)

its an ignition problem... It was done by your son over a year ago...... You need to confirm that the points and condensor are good...clean...and set properly. Be methodical and go through a full tune up. Make sure you are working with good parts and they are properly set up...point gap is set correctly. Plug gap is set. If the motor turns by hand...it will start. Rich

Forget everything you think you know or how it was setup before. Verify the motor is on #1 on TDC, verify that the dizzy isoriemted properly, verify the spark plug order on the cap, etc... all from the book and not from memory or how it was set before.

Cylinder #1 Driver-side Rear Rotor at 12 o'clock
Cylinder #2 Driver-side Front Rotor at 9 o'clock
Cylinder #3 Passenger Side Rear Rotor at 6 o'clock
Cylinder #4 Passenger Side Front Rotor at 3 o'clock

QUOTE (Gint @ Nov 20 2005, 09:29 PM)

QUOTE (r_towle @ Nov 20 2005, 07:32 PM) its an ignition problem... It was done by your son over a year ago...... You need to confirm that the points and condensor are good...clean...and set properly. Be methodical and go through a full tune up. Make sure you are working with good parts and they are properly set up...point gap is set correctly. Plug gap is set. If the motor turns by hand...it will start. Rich Forget everything you think you know or how it was setup before. Verify the motor is on #1 on TDC, verify that the dizzy isoriemted properly, verify the spark plug order on the cap, etc... all from the book and not from memory or how it was set before. Cylinder #1 Driver-side Rear Rotor at 12 o'clock Cylinder #2 Driver-side Front Rotor at 9 o'clock Cylinder #3 Passenger Side Rear Rotor at 6 o'clock Cylinder #4 Passenger Side Front Rotor at 3 o'clock

dude,
you can follow how most porsche owners do this or you not. it actually does not matter where the rotor points at a particular time as long as the plug wires are connected to the right cylinders at a particular time.

i just finished building a brand new motor and here's how i figured out where #1 was on the dizzy.
first: grounded the coil wire.

then i pulled the #1 plug and put my finger over the hole where the spark plug was while carefully turning it over.

as soon as i could feel the air rushing out i knew it was coming up on the compression stroke and quickly let off the ignition switch. now the #1 cylinder was just past TDC (top dead center) and technically now just starting the power stroke. this is the time when the spark needs to fire.

the rotor in my distributor was point towards a particular post on the cap and there is where i ran my #1 plug wire from.

then just worked my way around the distributor using the correct firing order and distributor rotation for the rest of the cylinders/plugs.

if you do it this way it will get you close enough to start it but have a timing light for a quick timing adjustment just after starting.

"le repos est histoire".... =-)


oh and hurry up. we want to hear it and see pics. =-)

Roger

It's amazing how far that "the rotor points to the physical #1 cylinder" stuff goes. It only applies to certain engines. I've ignored it from the beginning so I don't even know what engines it applies to. SBC? SBF? But Roger is correct. The orientation doesn't really matter as long as spark plug #1 is firing at cylinder #1 TDC (or thereabouts).

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 20 2005, 09:38 PM)

QUOTE Wine goes right to my head...I'm such a cheap drunk Hope your wife doesn't take advantage of that.

Oh...jeeze...your right....I better check my wallet.

QUOTE (McMark @ Nov 20 2005, 10:44 PM)

It's amazing how far that "the rotor points to the physical #1 cylinder" stuff goes.  It only applies to certain engines.  I've ignored it from the beginning so I don't even know what engines it applies to.  SBC? SBF?  But Roger is correct.  The orientation doesn't really matter as long as spark plug #1 is firing at cylinder #1 TDC (or thereabouts).

I forgot to add the prerequisite 15 disclaimers. I only posted that table to keep it simple. In retrospect I wish I hadn't. It was a straight copy and paste from Pelican. I really don't like it myself. The picture however is excellent. The fact of the matter is, we're talking about a 914. Not a small block Chevy or Ford or anything else. The rotor pointing to #1 cap tower when the engine is at #1 TDC applies to every 914, four cylinder or six.




There are a couple of concepts you need to know. They apply to VW Type IV motors as installed in 914's and are fact.

1.
Every factory Type IV motor in a 914 turns over twice for every one revolution of the distributor.

2.
IF the motor is on #1 TDC, the rotor WILL be pointing to the distributor cap tower that the #1 spark plug wire needs to be connected to. From there is a simple matter of following the firing order counter clockwise on the cap to install the plug wires as listed in the cylinder layout picture that I posted previously and again at the bottom of this post.

3.
As long as your motor and distributor are stock AND have not been "enhanced" by some PO, and the distributor drive assembly in the case is stock and correct, it is physically impossible to install a stock Type IV dizzy in the motor incorrectly. The drive dog on the bottom of the dizzy and the corresponding slot in distributor drive gear in the case are offset such that the dizzy will only go in one way. No 180 degree out stuff applies. It is impossible. You can install the wires 180 degrees out, or 90 degrees etc..., but you cannot install the dizzy 180 out.




Read these two articles from Pelican and understand them. They really do explain the processes quite well.

Pelican Technical Article: 914 Timing and Dwell Adjustment

Pelican Pelican Technical Article: 914 Valve Adjustment Made Easy



This may not help Steve right now, but for newbies, lurkers or those otherwise inetersted...

When I first aquire a 914, I like to do a valve adjustment and tune-up. At this time I pull the valve covers and use the valves and the distributor rotor location to determine #1 TDC. Then I find the notch in the flywheel via the hole in the top of the transaxle as described in the Pelican article. Then I mark the bottom of the flywheel. From this point on, if you understand evrything here and what's in the Pelican articles, you can easily tell if the motor is on TDC by just pulling the distributor cap and verifying the rotor is pointing the cap tower for #1 cylinder. Form here on out, valve adjustments, tune-ups, troubleshooting is easy.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

I assume since you quoted me you're talking to me. I agree with this:

QUOTE

The rotor pointing to #1 cap tower when the engine is at #1 TDC applies to every 914, four cylinder or six.

I was talking about the idea that your rotor should point at the #1 SPARK PLUG at TDC, which is false (unless your dizzy drive is put in wrong). As in, pointing in the 10 o'clock direction (viewing the dizzy from the top). Technically, the rotor should be pointing at the impeller inspection hole at #1 TDC. Sorry for the confusion.

gint. Well written. Great logic. This whole trip was based on a suggestion that an engine rebuilder could install the drive cog in a position other than factory. Remember that his car was running fine when it was parked long ago. If I hadn't removed the distributor I would not have suspected anything in the ignition.

McMark. I didn't communicate that well. I didn't mean the plug itself but where the #1 wire plugs into the cap. Exactly as you describe in your clarification.

So I'm not one who normally goes sticking his finger in dark holes. That normally causes problems not solves them But to lay this whole issue to rest I did RogerGrubs thing with feeling for the compression. Instead of trying to stop the engine though I just took the cap off and watched the rotor. The engine is at factory spec with # 1 coming to TDC compression with the rotor pointing toward the impeller hole. BTW I've devised an even slicker way of doing that check. Pull #1 plug (any plug really) and do the standard spark check. You can hear when you are compressing the cylinder with the plug out - less resistance on the starter. Right about then you should see your spark. Two tests in one

Now that is out of the way I go back to really two possibilities. The spark is too weak or the mixture is way out of whack.

I've dropped the fuel pressure down and tossed in another couple of gallons of gas. The pump is running a little more smoothly with less air in the system. I still don't like it but it is probably good enough for now.

I don't have the experiance to grade the quality of the spark but I wouldn't call the spark I saw 'bright'. Not only that but it was not consistant. Weak, strong, this side of the anode, that side of the anode. My gut says I problably would know it if I were looking at a good spark. I may pull a plug out of the Santa Fe tomorrow to look at a know good spark. Son is out with it tonight so I can't do it now.

Got the battery on charge to get it back up to snuff. Everything is back together and ready for another go. This time I'll jump it to try to get a better spark.

while that battery is charging i'd get some fresh plugs and emery board those points and re-gap.

Has anyone mentioned a bad coil?

QUOTE (McMark @ Nov 22 2005, 10:02 PM)

Has anyone mentioned a bad coil?

yep. =-)

suggested he borrow a known good one.

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Nov 22 2005, 09:15 PM)

while that battery is charging i'd get some fresh plugs and emery board those points and re-gap.

what emory board do you use?

the paper ones dont do jack....

the special platnium iridium emory board costs more than a box of doughnuts....

b

plugs are new. I'll shine up the points - could have a little crud build up from the years - we get a lot of sulpher in the air here. I also don't like the wire set I have so I think Santa will bring me a Clewett set.

Bad Coil? Dunno about that. Isn't it pretty much all or nothing? It is just a transformer with windings - how could it get weak? Oh well - add it to your list Santa. and maybe electronic points - or an MDS system. Yeah Santa go for it!

Speaking of Santa, temp crashed last night to -8C (bout 16F). Forecast is for 2-3 inches of snow tonight. No playing for a while.

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 22 2005, 10:43 PM)

I may pull a plug out of the Santa Fe tomorrow to look at a know good spark.

Some of the newer car coil packs don't like this test...make sure you ground that plug well.

If all else fails send it to Mike (I'm too busy) he can swap parts out and if she's going to run he'll have her fired up in a couple of hours. In the long run cheaper than a lot of nice new parts, that may still not solve your problems.

Those are some wise words. Right now 2 hours of shop time with a professional will solve your problem. Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

QUOTE

Has anyone mentioned a bad coil?

I had a problem like this with a truck once. I did an OHM test on the NEW plug wires and the coil wire, low and behold the coil wire and 2 plug wires were no good.

I just thought I would share!!

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 23 2005, 05:17 AM)

If all else fails send it to Mike (I'm too busy) he can swap parts out and if she's going to run he'll have her fired up in a couple of hours. In the long run cheaper than a lot of nice new parts, that may still not solve your problems.

yup. Like I said at the start -

QUOTE

It may be time admit defeat and to send this puppy down to Mark or Mike.

This last gasp has been fun though. Learned some stuff - always good.

I've been talking to Mike about getting him to do the welding and wanted to send the car to him fully stripped so he can focus on the task at hand (longs and floor). I had hoped to have the engine out of his way. But if she has to go down with the engine in - so be it.

Thanks to all who participated - been a good discussion.

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 23 2005, 08:42 PM)

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 23 2005, 05:17 AM) If all else fails send it to Mike (I'm too busy) he can swap parts out and if she's going to run he'll have her fired up in a couple of hours. In the long run cheaper than a lot of nice new parts, that may still not solve your problems. yup. Like I said at the start - QUOTE It may be time admit defeat and to send this puppy down to Mark or Mike. This last gasp has been fun though. Learned some stuff - always good. I've been talking to Mike about getting him to do the welding and wanted to send the car to him fully stripped so he can focus on the task at hand (longs and floor). I had hoped to have the engine out of his way. But if she has to go down with the engine in - so be it. Thanks to all who participated - been a good discussion.

Get Mike to fire her up first.

If there is a problem that needs my attention I would have to pencil you in soon. A good 75%+ of my winter is already booked. I'm already turning away work.

That's if you need it by spring of course.