I have baseboard heaters and I want something better. My bills aren't huge, 23yr old house with 6" walls and at least R-40 in the ceiling, but you know baseboards suck.

We only really "need" A/C about 1 month per year...having it all summer would be nice, but that's a "like" not a need. We use a window shaker, noisy but it does the trick.

No gas service here.

Been kicking around, propane (or oil) forced air, propane in-floor, propane fireplaces up stairs and down (and keep the baseboards to even things out)...wood is out, I'm not stacking, etc wood in my old age.
Ground source would be nice but $$$$$.

I use wood in the shop and I may also change that one day.

What would you go with? What's the best bang for the buck?

We remodeled a home with electric baseboard heaters, and central air. We pulled all the ductwork and replaced everything, installing new Trane XL1800 3 ton units (3) 18 SEER. These are a/c-heat pumps with electric auxillary heat units. These units have been extremely efficient and worth the extra expense. A heat pump isn't the best choice for very cold climates, and it doesn't always blow hot air, but we added over 1800 sq ft and the heating and cooling bills have always been less than what they were before the remodeling. Another thing that does help, is a programable thermostat.

Our electric bill's are about to go the way of cali...totally out of control.

Deregulation is coming or should I say bend over

Mark, I don't know prices of propane compared to other fuels in your area but propane has some of the most efficient equipment out there. Because you have baseboard in a heating dominant area Geo is a costly alterative unless you are adding the ducts for A\C. Geo has leaving water temps of 130 which is probaby about 50f less than your boiler. So unless your original base is oversized you wouldn't have the capacity to heat the home. Check into some of the wall hung units available from Buderus or Noritz, they are compact and very efficient. You need to know your total btu loss of the home and domestic hot water needs to size the equipment. The wall hung units generally don't use storage for domestic hot water with the exception of the Buderus wher eit can be used with a storage tank. PM if you have any other questions

BTW we have no ductwork, but it's no more work than in-floor. Lots of headroom in the basement.

We are remodeling most of the house.

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 20 2005, 09:25 AM)

What would you go with? What's the best bang for the buck?

i agree with the comment on programmable thermostats.
do you have a rambler or 2+story? livable basement?
in-floor heat is THE BEST. my grandpa built it into his house in detroit back in the 50's. it was problematic then, but not now. hell, put in your driveway and... no more shoveling!
you can even engineer it to remove the heat from the home in the summer (not exacly cost-effective).
can you upgrade w/solar panels to offset the electric bills?
let me know if you want my research links...

QUOTE (guywan914 @ Nov 20 2005, 10:48 AM)

Mark, I don't know prices of propane compared to other fuels in your area but propane has some of the most efficient equipment out there. The wall hung units generally don't use storage for domestic hot water with the exception of the Buderus wher eit can be used with a storage tank. PM if you have any other questions

.69/L...about the same as oil.

We're leaning towards a propane system then we can have a gas water heater and gas stove.

Also our house is open concept so if we went with gas fireplaces we would keep the baseboards in the bedrooms. With the doors open most of the time they wouldn't be on much.
Less work too.

QUOTE (lotus_65 @ Nov 20 2005, 10:50 AM)

in-floor heat is THE BEST. my grandpa built it into his house in detroit back in the 50's. it was problematic then, but not now. hell, put in your driveway and... no more shoveling!

Driveway is a no way for sure!

My driveway is over a football field long!

My buddy has in-floor and I like it, but a couple of heating guys I've talked to say it's not as efficiant in the real cold.

Finished basement with a walk-out...raised bungalow.

We're putting our bedroom in the basement so the kids don't here the

QUOTE (guywan914 @ Nov 20 2005, 07:48 AM)

Mark, I don't know prices of propane compared to other fuels in your area but propane has some of the most efficient equipment out there. Because you have baseboard in a heating dominant area Geo is a costly alterative unless you are adding the ducts for A\C. Geo has leaving water temps of 130 which is probaby about 50f less than your boiler. So unless your original base is oversized you wouldn't have the capacity to heat the home. Check into some of the wall hung units available from Buderus or Noritz, they are compact and very efficient. You need to know your total btu loss of the home and domestic hot water needs to size the equipment. The wall hung units generally don't use storage for domestic hot water with the exception of the Buderus wher eit can be used with a storage tank. PM if you have any other questions

Plus you can use the nice wall mounted radiators in some rooms. Infloor is nice but does need some other fan system to blow air around too.
There are high volume AC systems $$$$ to cool the house too.


The infloor can be stapled up to the wood sub floor from the basement.

In-floor heating is the most efficient way to go in a home that you are building. The other guys are correct that to retrofit an existing home you may end up with some issues because you can't always get the design right especially in a cold climate. However that being said you can always install it in some of the most lived in rooms as a floor warming system with the existing base as a second stage to get the comfort of radiant heat. If you do go with radiant you can throw the programmable stats right out. Radiant works on a thermal mass principal which doesn't like to be set back because it just takes to darn long to catch back up. we are in the process of firing up a couple of homes right now that are at least 1\2 radiant. It takes two to three days to get things up to temp and it's not even that cold yet.

One of my customers is a heating guy and he needs a paint job. He will trade me for it at wholesale...any way I go.

For in floor he said I need a 56000 (or was that 66000?) BTU water heater.
He has one with a dent in it...$800Canadian.

His minor paint job is going cost him $3000, he has already agreed to that price.

BTW he heats his house with 2 propane fireplaces and it's almost twice the size of mine.

Too many ways too skin this cat

What to do-What to do

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 20 2005, 10:04 AM)

My buddy has in-floor and I like it, but a couple of heating guys I've talked to say it's not as efficiant in the real cold.

i think it depends on the construction. the fact that you're retrofitting might be at the core of the advice your getting from the heating guys, especially if you have more than 1 story.
it's likely warmer (marginally) where you are than detroit, so i think it would be potentially great. living with in-floor is nirvana, trust me.

I've always liked the idea of ground water heat pump but they are $$$ and they need augmentation during the cold months. Might be interesting to do a 'what if' calculation on what it would take to recoup your investment. I'm really pessimistic about the price of fossil fuels. I think this years jumps are just the start of it.

You have so much space there that passive solar might be worth looking into as well.

You know about the federal program for energy renovations? Fed Grants

If you want to get a quick estimate on ground source contact Grant Blackmore @ Eden Energy Equipment Limited, 71 Wyndham St. S., Guelph ON. 1-800-665-3336 or grant@edenenergy.com. Also check the WaterFurnace web site www.WaterFurnace .com and perform a search for local dealers who can work in conjunction with your friend

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 20 2005, 11:23 AM)

I've always liked the idea of ground water heat pump but they are $$$ and they need augmentation during the cold months.  Might be interesting to do a 'what if' calculation on what it would take to recoup your investment.  I'm really pessimistic about the price of fossil fuels.  I think this years jumps are just the start of it. You have so much space there that passive solar might be worth looking into as well. You know about the federal program for energy renovations? Fed Grants

Yep I also wonder where fuel and electric prices are going

Another customer of mine is a solar heating guy...again not cheap.


And yes I have more land then I need...23 acres.

If i did do a ground source I can bury it or there's a nice spot for a pond, with a spring, not far from the house.

I'll look at those grants tonight.

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 20 2005, 07:19 AM)

His minor paint job is going cost him $3000

Minor paint job??? Holy primer batman am I ever naive! Guess that's what happens when you don't get any bodywork done for 25 years.

Perry's correct that heat-pumps aren't the way to go on 'cold' climates, and Trane is the top of the line....eveything else falls somewhere below (IMO), but you'll pay for Trane's quality.

The type of house you have (ranch on a slab, ranch w/crawlspace, ranch w/basement, split-level, two-story, etc...) will dictate what type of forced-air furnace you can install, and the difficultly of the ductwork installation (labor costs). If your design requires the use of a horizontal furnace, 80+ is the highest effeciency for the installation, up/down flows go up to 96+ efficiency.

Fuel Oil (popular here): Very warm heat, and fairly efficient, but require yearly maintenance (filter, nozzle, etc..) or you'll have a problems, usually on the coldest day of the year it seems . Plus if the temps dip too low, and the tank is located outside, the fuel can gel unless you're running a #1/#2 mixture (mo' money). They require special tools to work on, and are super sensitive fuel pressure, air mixture, and electrode adjustment......In other words, you don't want one.

LPG isn't a much of a bargain as it used to be, but you can get high-efficiency (96+) models depending on your configuration (upflow/downflow). As I said before, horiz. only come in 80+.

As for the SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Rating) of A/C's, it's debatable as to whether the extra cost of the higher SEER A/C units are worth it (years to payback). They certainly not more dependable, and some have computer controlled condensor fan motors, which means "bend over" if something goes wrong with it. (I prefer K.I.S.S. when it comes to A/C units....or anything for that matter, maybe why I like 914s).

If you do go with a 96+ furnace, make sure it is a "sealed combustion" unit, meaning that it draws its combustion-air from outside, not the already heated air from your house.

Hope this helps!

-Kevin

Just to add to Kevin's response: York, Heil, Carrier, Amana all make multi position 90+ furnaces even horizontal and you will want to install it as sealed combustion as he states.

another link that you might find useful.
service providers

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Nov 20 2005, 10:11 AM)

The infloor can be stapled up to the wood sub floor from the basement.

this is correct, but because the wood is considered an insulator, it becomes far less efficient. so if you have the opportunity to lay it on top of the subfloor and carpet/tile over it would be much better.

a combination system could be great also, especially if you have a source for some affordable in-floor products. keep the baseboard heat and add a propane boiler. use the in-floor for baseline comfort and spike with electricity when your family needs it. you can also keep track of raw costs (per btu) and lean on the cheaper source.

efficiency is partly in the eyes of the beholder too. i'd pay more per btu for in-floor because of the comfort factor. but that's just me.

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 20 2005, 11:33 AM)

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 20 2005, 07:19 AM) His minor paint job is going cost him $3000 Minor paint job??? Holy primer batman am I ever naive! Guess that's what happens when you don't get any bodywork done for 25 years.

The "good" paints and primers alone can be $800-1000. You can knock $200-300 off that with cheap crap paints.

To me "minor" is a well done job without tearing the whole car down.
He's getting a deal...I'd would have wanted $3500 at least, but I'm suppost to be getting a deal as well.

I'm at the point now if I'm not getting a fair days wage I don't want the job.

Like I said - I'm totally naive. $1000 for materials just blows me away - I had no idea.

Skill and craftmanship should always be paid for. As should investment in tools and infrastructure.

Didn't know you were a painter.

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 20 2005, 11:50 AM)

Didn't know you were a painter.

I'm not...the hired help is.

I won't touch the stuff...I've never met a bodyman that wasn't a loon...it's the fumes you know.

QUOTE (guywan914 @ Nov 20 2005, 09:40 AM)

Just to add to Kevin's response: York, Heil, Carrier, Amana all make multi position 90+ furnaces even horizontal and you will want to install it as sealed combustion as he states.

Sure enough, they're making 90+ multiposition furnaces now (haven't seen one in person myself yet). I'm wondering how they got around gravity when it comes to the condensate drainage?

And I definitely need to learn to type faster......15 responses jumped on before I could get my reply in, including the type of home you have.

Basement....definitely your standard "high-efficiency upflow furnace w/ductwork [perimeter supply/central return]" installation. I did work with a guy when I moved out to Missouri that swore by installing returns in each room (except the bathroom/kitchen). Beautifully even heat throughout the house, but the customers complained about it being noisy (blower). If he goes with installing the returns in a central hallway (normal), have him install grilles high, and low on the wall (same cavity). You can block off the lower grilles in the summer to aid in extracting the heat from the house, and block off the upper grilles in the winter to draw the cooler air near floor level.......make sense? Here's a pic of what I'm talking about...