Ok, I've got a 914, with an unknown engine (serial is for RoW 1.7) that was rebuilt "several years ago". Just now I was shuffling cars... started it up, backed it down the driveway. I let it warm up for a couple minutes and shut it off. Then I went to move the MG so I would have toom to park the 914 next to it. The 914 was off for maybe 5 minutes. When I went to start up the 914, it immediately had a loud clack/knock. I drove it up the driveway and parked it next to the MG, and it made the noise the whole way. (about 75 feet) I shut it off, went to get the camera to record some videos. Then I started it up, and recorded these videos:

First is idling at about 1400 RPM, for 30 seconds.

Second is idling with a few blips of the throttle, also for 30 seconds.

The videos are 2.7 megs each. Thanks!

sounds valve related...

take off the valve covers and check all the rockers etc..
Otherwise, it might be a dropped valve seat...

Whatever, dont run it again...its not a good sound.

You might need to take off the heads to determine what is going on...

Rich

Wow what a great tool that video camera turned out to be!

Sounds like valve train noise to me. Don't run it again esp under load until you pull off the valve covers and check each rocker arm and adjuster. I've seen the locknuts back off and make come off and get down the pushrod tubes and cause damage.

A big day for noises. Sounds valve related....use your own imagination. (gentle enuff?)

(edit)
Just call me ole quick draw

Sounds like a valve adjuster is in need of adjusting.

Valves.. good..

It doesn't seem to me that it could simply be "out of adjustment", because it made no such noise when I shut it down 5 minutes earlier.

So what all can make a noise like this suddenly? Dropped valve seat of course... what about a broken valve spring?

The rocker can jump off the valve end and make that noise too. Best way is to pop off the valve covers and look....

It is a dropped valve seat.

I learned the hard way. I had that happen in my 1.8. All the adjusting in the world won't fix that problem. Remove the head and take it to be fixed.

Good luck and don't run it.

Chris

Pretty tinny/clacky sounding noise, my first guess is that a valve adjuster backed out. Do valve seats make those noises when they go?

My second guess, is there a nut missing from the top of the carb somewhere??

I don't know what a valve seat dropping sounds like.

Have you checked the exhaust? Mine has done that on warm-up then once warm purs like a kitten, but i'm pretty sure I've got an exhaust leak and once the metal heats up and mates right it runs well and sounds good. What do you guys think? I hope I don't hvae a valve issue too.
Eric

Sounds remarkably like the valve head that broke off and lodged itself into the piston crown. Unfortunately my vote is for bad news.

What if the noise stops after a while?
Eric

I'm sorry to be inclined to say thats painfull to listen to. I think it prolly is a valve seat also, It is possible that an adjuster has backed off (but that really can't happen suddenly), or the rocker assembly has backe off far enough to let a pushrod fall out of the cup (and I can tell you from experience that noise is LOUD- like beating a garbage can), but that would more typically include a recent valve or rocker reassembly gone bad.
Eric-
a welladjusted motor is alittle noiser cold, and if the valve clearances are too great a motor will be noisy until realy compleely fully warm. My motor sometime is more noisy when first startedthan other times. I think it is due to the position of the pushrod and flat spots that devellop after many many miles. the pushrods turn as the reciprocate and I think sometimes they location when turned off is sorta flatened and therefor has greater clearance than oiginallly adjusted to, Does any of that make sense or am I just too imagianitive?

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 3 2005, 09:18 PM)

Sounds remarkably like the valve head that broke off and lodged itself into the piston crown. Unfortunately my vote is for bad news.

OOf.. I'm pretty sure that can't be it, because it's pretty clearly still running on all four.

Dropped valve seat seems like the most plausible explanation so far.

The funny thing is that I intend to drop the engine in the next month or two anyways, as it's going in a different 914. This literally couldn't have happened at a better time. (besides "never")

If it is a problem with a valve/valve seat a compression test might help pinpoint which cylinder.

I would check the spark plug wire paths for shorting. That ticking noise also sounds like a spark from a loose or bare wire. Check your distributor rotor and cap too.
-Jeff

Sounds like a rod bearing to me.

Regardless, I'm pretty sure the engine will have to come apart.

QUOTE (914RS @ Dec 3 2005, 11:49 PM)

Sounds like a rod bearing to me.

Don't say that!

It's definitely not just a stray spark.. it's much louder than any valve noise I've ever heard.. the sound doesn't seem as loud in the video. For reference, it has a bursch exhaust that's pretty loud. Turn up your volume until it sounds like a 914 with a louder exhaust, and you'll get an idea of what it's like.

On my 73 2.0 had a similar noise....turned out to be a 10mm washer that a local "expert" Porsche shop had accidentally dropped into the manifold while changing a base gasket on one of the Webers.....they called me and said that the car had thrown a rod and for 6 to 12 thousand dollars they would rebuild the motor....I called one of the good guys in the club EJM and had the car flat bedded to his shop where he pulled the motor and found the washer embeded in a piston and cylinder head....Ed was able to clean up the gouges and reassemble...at a later date he pulled the carbs off and put the FI back runs great now....jeez but that is a long story just to tell you that something could have fallen off or thru of one of your carbs.

QUOTE (bondo @ Dec 3 2005, 05:27 PM)

First is idling at about 1400 RPM, for 30 seconds.

[QUOTE]

OUCH

Take the cover off and adjust your valves...if one adjuster is totally out of whack start ripping her apart.
Also look for a pushrod off it's rocker.

Didn't listen to your problem...dial-up is just to slow.

you might be lucky and one of the nuts came off of the rocker arm assembly, BTDT....another time I had one of the rocker arm assembly studs pull out of the head...made a bunch of noise...I didn't listen to the video since I have no sound on my home PC

I think Mueller might have something here. Rockers studs pull out or the nut falls off making a bunch of noise.

I have a new opinion. Let's see if my logic holds up.

At 1400 rpm:

If it were a rod bearing, we should hear the noise every rotation of the crank: 23 events per second.

If it's valve related, we would hear the noise at half crank speed: 11 events per second.

This sounds like 11hz to me.

definately a rocker/valve adjuster noise.....

rod sounds alot different, BTDT

Sean_V8_914 and hmeeder were just here delivering my new blue flared roller (pics later in a new thread) and listened to the noise. They both think it's a valvetrain noise on number 2. The engine will come out and apart before it's run again, updates then.

Thanks for all the expert ears!

my vote....

collapsed Hydrolic lifter - happend to my bus

Have you ever been into this motor?

If is is solids - bent pushrod? How often do you run the beast?

QUOTE (qa1142 @ Dec 4 2005, 05:01 PM)

my vote.... collapsed Hydrolic lifter - happend to my bus Have you ever been into this motor? If is is solids - bent pushrod? How often do you run the beast?

That could totally be it.. I have never been into the motor. I did suspect that it could have hydraulic lifters, because until this point it was always quieter than usual for a 914.

I recently bought this car, and it had been sitting for about a year before I bought it. I have since run it evey other week or so, and never had a problem beyond carb troubles.

I had planned to open up the engine anyways just to see what I had, so really this is no problem, as long as the parts don't cost too much.

The sound appears to be in unison with the exhaust cadence. The frequency also rises with the throttle being opened. It drops as the throtle is closed. The sound does not appears to be eminating from the center of the engine. I can clearly determin the rotational sound of the crank as well as the pulseing of the exhaust.

My only aural experience with T4 engines was with my bus engine that was soon to drop a valve seat. that sounded like there was little pebbles int he cylinder being shaken.

I'm rebuilding a friends engine at the moment and he had a spun bearing. The sound was like a sledge hammer on an anvil. A very strong guy swinging a very big hammer very fast!.

Definatly pop the valve covers and look for weird stuff out of place. If you dont see anything, then you've bassically commited to tearing down the block.

You should post these files over on the Samba baywindow forum. There are a few guys ( "amskeptic" for example) over there who've been diagnosing the T4 engine for a very long time and they could' probably help. Dont worry about it being a 914.. Just tell 'em that bottomend sent cha!

My first thought was remebering a quote from Star Wars... "Shut them down! Shut them all down!!!"...

Ouch. Painfull to hear. My guess, it's valve related. Could be a valve seat, could be something else. But regardless, please don't run it anymore, and tear it down propper...

Sorry. But hey, it's no where near as bad a noise was when my crank snapped!!! Now -that- was an expensive noise...

-Josh2

How dirty is the oil?

If you have hydraulic lifters AND dirty oil, then yes, your symptoms sound correct. My Vanagon does that sometimes. Start the van, move it to another spot on the driveway and shut it off. Come back a little later and WTF! CLANK! CLANK! CLANK!

It's a characteristic of those darned VW horizontal hydraulic lifters. I look at it as a warning to change the oil with nice fresh synthetic. Clean Synthetic seems to keep the lifters quiet.

Hope that's it. It'sa cheep fix.

Oh yeah, a FRAM oil filter can makeit happen too!

Ken

Ok, I pulled a valve cover, and here is what I found...

The number 2 exhaust rocker has about 5 mm of clearance. Considering the circumstances, it seems unlikely that this is a dropped seat (happened with engine pretty cold). The tip of the valve also seems to be sitting at about the same height as the others, not lower.. so it looks like the pushrod side of the rocker isn't coming out far enough, not the valve side being stuck in. So now my thoughts are collapsed hydraulic lifter, or bent pushrod. Could anything else cause this? The rocker shaft is in place and tight, and the valve adjustment locknuts are tight. Keep in mind it happened suddenly.

It looks like my next course of action is to pull the rocker shaft, pushrod tube, pushrod, and lifter.. does this sound right?

I just had an epiphany that basically slapped me in the face and said "It's a collapsed lifter, duh!"

It has about 5mm clearance, AND it's spring loaded towards the valve! So there is not any actual clearance, but it can be wiggled about 5 mm, and if you let go, it springs back against the valve.

So now the question is: Do I pull and clean out the lifter, or just fill it with fresh oil and some CD2 and run it until the noise goes away?

Lifters are easy to pull. I would pull the suspect and soak the lifter in PB blaster then exercise the lifter to make sure what ever was sticking it is gone. then put lifter in cup of motor oil and exercise it again till it pumps up with oil. should come back. If not then pull all that hydraulic lifter crap out and go solid.

Success! I filled it with synthetic, and let it run for 15 minutes.. the clicking gradually faded, and now it's nice and quiet!

Unfortunately the tank was near empty and it almost immediately ran out of gas.

Getting the pushrods correctly seated into the hydraulic lifters can be a trick sometimes and can account for noise and misadjustment. Change the oil with synthetic, make sure the pushrod is in the appropriate place in the center of the lifter, not to one side. If it is to one side, you can damage the lifter. Recheck the valve adjustment. If you adjusted to a gap of .006 and ran it ,the pushrods are slopping around (NOT GOOD)and you need to readjust ALL valve gaps.

Hydraulics have no gap and some preload. Correct adjustment is 2 half turns of the adjuster screw (in tighter) past valve contact. Some adjust it in to just touching the valve, run it for a while and then turn it in 2 half turns tighter. That allows collapsed lifters to fill and then you adjust the valves correctly once they are fully pumped up.

See Boston Bob's website for a full how to....

By the way, the manual is WRONG at 2 FULL turns past contact. Been discussed mightily on Vanagon forums.

That should do it. Mine rarely clank after a synthetic change (20w50), a new good filter and an adjust. Fram filters kill hydraulic lifters too.

Good luck!

I never took it apart or messed with any adjustments, so it should be OK.

Check the valve gaps. Do you know who adjusted them last? Hydraulics have no gaps. Hydraulics can be finicky to adjust if you don't know the tricks.

QUOTE (kwales @ Jan 7 2006, 06:14 PM)

Check the valve gaps. Do you know who adjusted them last? Hydraulics have no gaps. Hydraulics can be finicky to adjust if you don't know the tricks.

No idea who adjusted them last, but I did notice a little bit of clearance on the others. The engine hadn't been run in a month though, so they may have leaked down. One of these days I'll get around to trying to adjust them, but for now it runs fine and is quiet.

Hydros require a hydro cam, right? So I at least know I have a non-stock cam and can't go back to d-jet?

well...the late vanagons had L-jet on them and were hydro.....

so i think it might be okay ???

b

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Jan 7 2006, 06:51 PM)

well...the late vanagons had L-jet on them and were hydro..... so i think it might be okay ??? b

That's good to know. It's got dual weber 40s on it now. Seems to go well enough, but it has a flat spot which I suspect is advance related (non-stock dizzy).

Same thing happened to my 2.0 with hydraulic lifters. Running OK, shut it off. Next start, clakety- clack for about 10 minutes , slowly getting quiter. I knew what it was right off due to living with a 76 Dodge PU that I overhauled 16 years ago and put in a new cam and lifters. Every once and a while it is noisy on start up for several minutes. Been doing this for the past 10 years. What happens is this; if the leaky lifter is on the cam lobe under load when the engine stop turning, it will leak down. Upon initial start up it does not have the proper amount of oil in it and is noisy until it pumps back up. Probably should remove and replace this lifter , but otherwise the truck runs great.
I do think I should change out the lifters in my 2.0 while I have the engine out.
Anyone have a procedure for doing this. Not tearing the engine apart, only cleaning it up and replacing the clutch. Any issues with just changing out the lifters and not the cam?
Tom

usually, at least with solid lifters and cams, is that you replace them in pairs.

But i dont know anything from experiece.

b

Tom something is buggin the hell outta me.

Could u get hydraulic lifters for the 2.0L? I thought they were only solid.

-L

QUOTE (bondo @ Jan 7 2006, 05:42 PM)

Hydros require a hydro cam, right? So I at least know I have a non-stock cam and can't go back to d-jet?

The Blue-soon-to-be-Red car has hydraulics in a 1.7 with Djet.

Chaff,
Yes hydraulic lifters are possible. Some HP loss, but I believe the chances for valve and head damage from ill adjusted solids is much less. Hydraulics are more forgiving. Anyone else have any knowledge to expand on this? Previous owner had the engine rebuilt at 43, 000 miles after dropping a valve on #3. Had hydraulics installed during engine rebuild. Engine was rebuilt again at 61,000 - don't know why, maybe first rebuild was not by a top notch mechanic. At second rebuild , lifters were not replaced. Now I'm thinking I should get them replaced.
Tom

If the oil is dirty, those VW lifters can bleed down and not repressurize after you start the car, move it in the driveway, and shut it off. Only use synthetic oil, change regularly, and use a good filter.

Hydros aren't great for air cooled and the overheating stretchy valve before breaky/valve seat fall from head issues. When you have solids, you go into the engine, adjust the valves and have a clue if the valves are stretching or the valve seats are moving. If the valve starts stretching or constantly changing, stop running it, it's time for a rebuild.

With hydros it's set and forget. They sorta run ok, and adjust for a stretching valve or a seat as it loosens up until....BOOM, you got an engine fulla broken parts.

Vanagons are water cooled and don't have as many overheating head issues so they hydros sorta work.

As per swaping them out, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I have heard of one or two lifters being replaced on an old cam, but it's a risk. After rebuilding air cooled engines and looking at the parts, those old cam lobes are usually all different sizes and lifts from lobe to lobe. All new hydros means all new cam to me.

Hope that helps