hi I was wondering if you had a choice between the subaru engine and the 911 engine which one would you choose? and why?

Tricky one.....


or

Depends on which subaru engine and which 911 engine

WRX STi versus a 2.7 liter stud puller 911? easy... Subaru engine...

1.6 liter Subaru versus 996 twin turbo? easy.. Porsche engine...

For a closer match, the 2.5 naturally aspirated Subaru engine and 2.7 liter 911 6 are a closer match in performance. As to which is better it depends on your preference. I prefer the Subaru because its a more modern engine, is cheaper, and weighs considerably less. However it is water cooled, and doesn't have the sounds of a 6, nor does it strictly belong in the 'family.'

-Tony

I'd guess that "most" of the Suby conversion people (I'd say 99%) picked the subaru motor based on it being more cost effective....the subaru motor is cheap and less expensive to install.....

if money was no object, 911 3.6 motor hands down would be the number one choice I'd say...well at least for me it would be.

I'd do a 911 engine if it wasn't for cost. I can buy a some thousand mile WRX engine any day of the week for under $1000. If I had a 911 engine - it would cost me $8k minimum to rebuild it. I could have 8 subaru motors for that.

The Subie motor is also lighter. It would be interesting to know if it's still lighter after it's full of water and radiators and shit.

Oh yeah - and it still costs about 8k to rebuild a 2.0 120-150hp 911 motor. You could probably rebuild the 1.6 subie motor for 1k and outrun the 6, especially if you put a blower on it.

My WRX motor sounds like a 914-4 engine.

The 911 engine sounds much better, though there can be too much of a good thing. The fan is very close to the firewall, and makes quite a racket. However, doing a valve adjustment on a 911 engine in a 914 is even more of a PITA than doing one on a /4, whereas the Soob will rarely need that particular bit of attention. The Soob engine would be cheaper to do, though a 3.0 (or even a 2.7) would be hard to turn down.

Money says Soob, heart says 911.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Dec 5 2005, 12:31 PM)

****** However, doing a valve adjustment on a 911 engine in a 914 is even more of a PITA than doing one on a /4, ***********

a '95 3.6 will cure that....no more valve adjustments from '95 to current motors....

I like the 4 banger Subie motor enuff that it would be a slam dunk for the replacement of a blowed up T-4. I'm considering building one for a driver....at some distant point in the future.


As for the replacement of a 6....
Maybe an sti motor "rather" than a 911 6 conversion.... the rest are dog meat. If you wanna prove me wrong, come play. Some STI guys (the whole car) give me a hard time at AX, but my 914 is prettier

QUOTE (Mueller @ Dec 5 2005, 12:11 PM)

911 3.6 motor hands down would be the number one choice I'd say...

(see my sig. line ...)

Andy

I'd say to pick up a used 911SC or Carrera 3.2 motor out of a wreck. Be a lot cheaper than a rebuilt one. There is nothing like the wail of an air-cooled motor and 6 thoats worth of webers right behind your ears! Makes old women blush, young women giggle and mothers grab hold of their daughters!

Oh yeah, get the sport exhaust and bring some ear plugs!

Yes JP, yours is prettier on the outside and in the engine compartment


What engine do you have in your car now?

Hay, that's an old pic. It sure was pretty back in 2001, eh?

Still that same old 2.7L with more cam & compression than it came to me with. I can't seem to break it...yes, I'm knocking wood.

that one is pretty but so would this one, close to my palnned power plant!

there is a question that needs to be asked first: what do you want to do with your car? PCA will not be thrilled w/ your Suby choice. what class would you be in with SCCA?

I love my V8 914 but mt 2.0 will bring me more smiles per mile on teh track. I would have to pick teh Porsche 6

I travel 3-4 days a week and I have a second driver coming up the line, my crew is now becoming a driver.

NASA GTS , power to weight classes only with german mark cars

DE's.


I can't afford to lose a porsche motor at the track and expect to return in any kind of short order, 2.0liter long block suby, $600-1000... I can afford to keep one prep'ed and in the garage.

Track junkie yes, racing is a little out of reach....

SCCA road racing would prolly put put you in "other".....bend over & kiss your ass goodby.

SCCA AX...WAG E Mod

PCA AX...if they let ya run......OTP
Our ORPCA DE....come play against the Pcars.
At many PCA region's DEs you will not be welcome by the stuck up SOBs

But for a street car, who cares? You could even plumb in heat that heats and have a nice modern reliable engine.

$.02 cents I dropped 10k into parts for my 3.0 and had a buddy build it for free. I then had to sell the mortor to move. After looking at all of the recipts for that monster, vs the 3k it looks like it is going to take for my autox/street car. my $ are going to a suby and I will take the $ i saved and build my wife a bad ass Ghia

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Dec 5 2005, 08:06 PM)

At many PCA region's DEs you will not be welcome by the stuck up SOBs But for a street car, who cares? You could even plumb in heat that heats and have a nice modern reliable engine.

locally...

I don't think its a matter of being stuck up.
Its just that most events sell out and, its used as a way to limit applicants somewhat.

$.02

I spent the last few months really grappling with this question. Ultimately, it was a couple of things that made my decision for me. I was strongly influenced by my desire to be able to participate in PCA events. Being in the Porsche business, there was a pretty strong need to be able to go to those events and represent our shop. And then the purist in me took over from there. I decided that I wanted to make my 914 what it should have been from the factory. I realize that I am not going to have as modern or as powerful an engine as the guys doing 3.0, 3.2 or 3.6l conversions. But I am going to go with a 2.4l I just like that engine, and it seems period correct to me.

And this all comes from a die hard Subaru guy. I have a very built 2.5RS as my daily driver. And I have done WRX engine swaps on early Subarus, in addition to a number of different bastard builds of various head and block combinations, both turbo and non-turbo. With half a dozen longblocks in the garage, including an early JDM STi engine, it would be really easy to just drop a Subaru engine into my car. But I am going to have to go the more expensive and purist route and do a 914-6 build...

QUOTE (brant @ Dec 6 2005, 07:37 AM)

locally... I don't think its a matter of being stuck up. Its just that most events sell out and, its used as a way to limit applicants somewhat. $.02

I respectfully disagree.

I've had plenty of discussions with plenty stuckup PCA people that just don't like conversions because they aren't pure Porsche. I always get attitude about the Subaru conversion,very few of these guys are willing to understand the reasoning behind it, or to appreciate some of the tech that went into getting it running. I think most of these guys are still trying to get over the fact that 914s are allowed in the Porsche club because they think it's NARP.

I've never gotten the impression that they are turning away "all porsche" vehicles because the events are full, I think that's just an excuse.

The other excuse I've heard is: Mr Bloggs in his (probably gorgeous) 914 1.7 doesn't want to get beaten at (insert event here) by a small block chevy powered 917 replica. Personally - I'd f*****g love to get whaled on by said 917. I love watching Radicals and other totally tricked out kit ripping around the track and I don't give a rats ass if it's faster than me. I'm in it to take part and to enjoy the spirit of motorsport. To me that's about innovation and taking part, and not staring down your nose.

QUOTE (fiid @ Dec 6 2005, 11:10 AM)

QUOTE (brant @ Dec 6 2005, 07:37 AM) locally... I don't think its a matter of being stuck up. Its just that most events sell out and, its used as a way to limit applicants somewhat. $.02 I respectfully disagree. I've had plenty of discussions with plenty stuckup PCA people that just don't like conversions because they aren't pure Porsche. I always get attitude about the Subaru conversion,very few of these guys are willing to understand the reasoning behind it, or to appreciate some of the tech that went into getting it running. I think most of these guys are still trying to get over the fact that 914s are allowed in the Porsche club because they think it's NARP. I've never gotten the impression that they are turning away "all porsche" vehicles because the events are full, I think that's just an excuse. The other excuse I've heard is: Mr Bloggs in his (probably gorgeous) 914 1.7 doesn't want to get beaten at (insert event here) by a small block chevy powered 917 replica. Personally - I'd f*****g love to get whaled on by said 917. I love watching Radicals and other totally tricked out kit ripping around the track and I don't give a rats ass if it's faster than me. I'm in it to take part and to enjoy the spirit of motorsport. To me that's about innovation and taking part, and not staring down your nose.

I'm fine with differences of opinions.

I do know that in Colorado they do turn away porsche's at many track events because the event is full.

They have a rule about number of cars per a track mile

they would turn away corvettes, conversions, subaru's too.

There are plenty of NON porsche clubs for those cars to go play in. Audi, Nissan, Mercedes, CEMA... All of these other Colorado clubs will allow "run what'cha brung"

probably some snobbery too.
if the event sells out to all porsche's and its a porsche club, then join a different club.

I can only speak for Colorado....

besides, i doubt you'd want to put a 150hp subbie into a modified (2.4L) GT class against a car with 50K into it and 280hp. (alot of the porsches that are not stock, look like this!)

brant

I suspect there's a lot of regional differences too - yeah. I only have experience with GGR-PCA, and to be clear - I have only gotten attitude from a very small minority of people.
Everyone else in the group seems to be really awesome.

Fortunately we also have a number of alternative clubs as well.

How do you think a 280HP turbo 4 banger would stack up against the 280HP 6 with 50K in it??

QUOTE (fiid @ Dec 6 2005, 11:38 AM)

How do you think a 280HP turbo 4 banger would stack up against the 280HP 6 with 50K in it??

I think it depends upon a lot other than the motor.

would the 4cylinder weight 1800lbs and run 11inch slicks, on highly tuned suspension?

I really thankful for all of your guys responces. I myself want my car just to be fast, reliable, and most of all fun. I find that I don't have the money to pay for a 6 cylinder porsche engine with 90k miles on it for 3,500 right now. I've been building my car for about 3 years now with our budget. I'm restored just about everything from transmission to rebuilding a master cylinder. I got a bad rebuilt motor in irwindale,ca on which I get very low compression, 80 lbs per cylinder which is about half of what it should be.I don't find myself going to races anytime soon maybe in a few years, but I just want a pretty good motor that I know will be somewhat fast and reliable. also do you think I should just redo the heads on my 4 cylinder or just save and get the subaru conversion? THanks for all of your help

I really wanted to put a Porsche engine in my 914 but to achieve the performance that I was looking for would have been too much money. Instead I went with an engine that will make 400-450 RWHP / 350-400 lb-ft torque in N/A form, have a 9000 rpm redline, weigh 315 lbs and has dimensions of 26.5" L x 21.5" W x 20.5" H. Initial purchase price of the engine is $3500US with a rebuild costing around $2000US each if I do it. Now if you could find me a Porsche engine that comes close to these numbers let me know and I'll hunt one down for my project. Otherwise it's onwards and upwards with my 3 rotor conversion. The cool thing is it'll still sound like an exotic and should be fairly unique in the world. Here's a picture of the triple throttle body assembly I got for it the other day:

QUOTE (lfdrumz0929 @ Dec 6 2005, 11:00 AM)

I really thankful for all of your guys responces. I myself want my car just to be fast, reliable, and most of all fun. I find that I don't have the money to pay for a 6 cylinder porsche engine with 90k miles on it for 3,500 right now. I've been building my car for about 3 years now with our budget. I'm restored just about everything from transmission to rebuilding a master cylinder. I got a bad rebuilt motor in irwindale,ca on which I get very low compression, 80 lbs per cylinder which is about half of what it should be.I don't find myself going to races anytime soon maybe in a few years, but I just want a pretty good motor that I know will be somewhat fast and reliable. also do you think I should just redo the heads on my 4 cylinder or just save and get the subaru conversion? THanks for all of your help

First thing is to check the class that you want to race in and see what it allows. Next is to consider your budget and your own technical/mechanical expertise. Are you able to fabricate and do most everthing yourself? If your racing class allowed for it and if you were able to do it yourself I think the subie would be a great way to go as it will give you good bang for the buck and have a relatively inexpensive upgrade/rebuild path afterwards.

Now if you have to get others to do all the work for you or your racing class does not allow a transplant then you are pretty much set with with the Type IV. It's not a bad option but you will have to accept that future upgrades will be expensive in the dollars/hp way. The Porsche 6 would only increase the dollars/hp amount. So if you have the pockets for it get the 6 - just make sure that those pockets are deep enough.

While on the topic of Subaru engines, has anyone converted to a Subaru engine and installed air conditioning? Love driving the 914 but in the summer I don't like arriving at my destination in a sweat.

Last summer a lunchtime errand run to Home Depot, Best Buy, and Staples in 85F sunny weather put me back at work drenched.

Spoke

I don't think anyone's done it yet, but that doesn't mean it's not possible or even reasonably easy to do once you have it running.

There are 2 main challenges to putting A/C in a stock 914:
1) it's hard to fit all the air plumbing and the heat exchanger to the inside of the car.
2) it's tricky to get the unit bolted up to the engine becuase of the air ducting for engine cooling.

2 is made easier by the subaru engine since they all come from the factory with AC pumps.

The 2.5l conversions that are running the radiator in the trunk depend on flipping the intake manifold around, which requires moving the alternator. As far as I know - ther alternator in these setups goes where the air conditioning pump goes on a stock subie engine - which might make it harder - plus there's just less room around due to the radiator being there.

So: challenges, but not impossible.

QUOTE (fiid @ Dec 5 2005, 11:26 AM)

I'd do a 911 engine if it wasn't for cost. I can buy a some thousand mile WRX engine any day of the week for under $1000. If I had a 911 engine - it would cost me $8k minimum to rebuild it. I could have 8 subaru motors for that. The Subie motor is also lighter. It would be interesting to know if it's still lighter after it's full of water and radiators and shit.

2108 lbs with driver...

weighed at truck scales damn dear 50-50 bias.

QUOTE (Spoke @ Dec 7 2005, 05:33 PM)

While on the topic of Subaru engines, has anyone converted to a Subaru engine and installed air conditioning? Love driving the 914 but in the summer I don't like arriving at my destination in a sweat. Last summer a lunchtime errand run to Home Depot, Best Buy, and Staples in 85F sunny weather put me back at work drenched. Spoke

would kill for 85 degrees...

Try 124 in the middle of the summer!

Now THAT is hot.

Youz guys crack me up.

Ya'll run on & on about how much the 911 motor costs so much, expensive to rebuild, how you can get more-better-cheeper with a __________(fill in the blank).

So, let's see em' on the road or track.....anywhere but in your dreams.

Yet, for all the poor mouthing, guys are sticking the beauty
from the 9elbmen in behind their shoulders all the time.....how stupid are we idots? Even more plan on it ....from what I read here. WTF?

There is nothing wrong, to my way of thinking, with stuffing what ever the hell you want back there. Infering or implying that your set-up is gonna be better, faster,cheeper, yada is
absurd....till you can prove it's than a decent 6. The nifty pictures of parts catagory is already by Quarl.....and nice pile it is, so I ain't impressed by wannabes.

QUOTE

So, let's see em' on the road or track.....anywhere but in your dreams.

There are several 914s with Subaru engines out there. Audioculture's car, Fiid's car, and Scott's car come to mind immediately. There are a ton of V8s out there, etc. Pretty much everything has been done, and every one has its drawbacks and benefits.

This thread was started as a question, 911 engine versus Subaru. So people have discussed each.

Asking which to use is a perfectly fine question. I think the statement "prove it by building it" is irrelevant to this thread. Everyone builds everything differently, there are few 914s with non-914 engines that are alike. So there's really nothing to prove.

And as far as the 6 engine, and why so many people do it or want to do it, that should be pretty obvious. There are however other options which for some people are better choices because of cost, performance, whatever. The 6 is not the best engine choice simply because its popular.

QUOTE

so I ain't impressed by wannabes.

I'm not sure anyone is actually trying to impress you.

JP.

Honestly. One of the reasons Im building my car the way it will be will be to compete with the 6 people that claim there is nothing close.

Ie You and Trekkor.

Unfortunately, I dont make, or have enough money to put into my car what you have in your suspension and tires and chassis.
So, it will continue to take a while.

And there are a few v8 track cars out there.

Harry (guy with the purple car) tracks his car, but its in for a rebuild right now.
Then theres the Ultimate v8 car (silver one, always pictures of it)

They do pretty well in my understanding.

Main reason that they dont go on the track is that PCA does not allow them to run, and SCCA bumps moderate v8 guys into very high classes. So unless the car is setup and capable of TTOD, then they are screwed.


Im a wanabe.. I think JP is not impressed with me

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Dec 8 2005, 05:58 PM)

JP. Honestly. One of the reasons Im building my car the way it will be will be to compete with the 6 people that claim there is nothing close. Ie You and Trekkor. Unfortunately, I dont make, or have enough money to put into my car what you have in your suspension and tires and chassis. So, it will continue to take a while. And there are a few v8 track cars out there. Harry (guy with the purple car) tracks his car, but its in for a rebuild right now. Then theres the Ultimate v8 car (silver one, always pictures of it) They do pretty well in my understanding. Main reason that they dont go on the track is that PCA does not allow them to run, and SCCA bumps moderate v8 guys into very high classes. So unless the car is setup and capable of TTOD, then they are screwed. Im a wanabe.. I think JP is not impressed with me

for some people, there is nothing else than the /6 for thier 914 and there is nothing wrong with that....

as for not having enough money to do this and that...well, it's not like you have to do everything all at once, JP and Trekkor have built up thier cars over many years.....

also, look at the price tags of Harrys and Elmo(?) car's, one has close to $100K and the other one I'm guessing $40K, so they better be as good or equal to most /6 cars out there

There are plenty of run groups for those 2 guys to run in, sure they aren't PCA, but the groups will have Porsches in them

by the way, I have a rear 916 bumper for you from Sonu...

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Dec 8 2005, 04:58 PM)

JP. Honestly. One of the reasons Im building my car the way it will be will be to compete with the 6 people that claim there is nothing close. Ie You and Trekkor. Unfortunately, I dont make, or have enough money to put into my car what you have in your suspension and tires and chassis. So, it will continue to take a while. And there are a few v8 track cars out there. Harry (guy with the purple car) tracks his car, but its in for a rebuild right now. Then theres the Ultimate v8 car (silver one, always pictures of it) They do pretty well in my understanding. Main reason that they dont go on the track is that PCA does not allow them to run, and SCCA bumps moderate v8 guys into very high classes. So unless the car is setup and capable of TTOD, then they are screwed. Im a wanabe.. I think JP is not impressed with me

Damnit, Andrew, I never said nothing else came close to a 6.....maybe I've implied that or even believe that....but don't put wurds in my mouth like that pencilneck just did.

I know of a couple SBCs that get my attention and would prolly impress me if I saw them run, but anyone that actually gets a good running car outta one of these projects has my respect.
I know what it takes to get there.

It takes is time, money, and effort... with the latter being the missing piece to many of these deals. The guy I who's project I bought way back when and was the starting point of my car is a good example. He was "well off" by my standards. He had a good collection of parts.

As for SCCA & PCA, I was lucky. I didn't *plan* to run in any kinda competition with anybody at the git-go. When I got "done" with the conversion, I said "Now What?" Shit happened and I found a nitch that fit......I also found that I wasn't "done"

I'm 60 years old & have been working for 41 of them. I should have a bit more disposable income than yourself.
Hit the books and you will do much better financially than I have....and I hope you have as much fun with cars & stuff.
I'd say you're off to a good start.

Does it matter if the car actually runs? A Porsche six conversion has become a pretty much bolt on project, not so with other engines. Unless you have a thing about being a pioneer, the degree of fabrication and modification is going to be less with a tried and true conversion. Not to dismiss the probability of actually driving the car within your lifetime

If you stick with a Porsche engine you should be able to keep a higher resale value, if that's important. If you put something besides an air (oil)cooled engine in the car it will probably bring less than whatever you paid for the car originally, and certainly not as much as you've dumped into it (if that's a consideration), building your water cooled conversion. Only the nicest V8 cars bring decent money, whereas good conversions hold up pretty well.

The nice thing about a 914 (despite lack of a/c) is the useability. You can put a ton of stuff in the car (two sets of clubs in the back and a playmate cooler up front). I'm no fan of any conversion that eats up front trunk space, regardless of what you are cooling.

I say go with a Carrera 3.2 motronic engine. You don't want a 3.6, there's too much auxillary bs to deal with (did ya know they don't have an oil cooler on the engine like all prior 911 engines?), that you won't run into with a earlier flat six.

This is just what you asked for though, an opinion. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, this is just my opinion. It is based on some experience, but I've certainly been wrong before, and you've pretty much gotten what you've paid for

QUOTE (9146986 @ Dec 9 2005, 07:10 AM)

I say go with a Carrera 3.2 motronic engine. You don't want a 3.6, there's too much auxillary bs to deal with (did ya know they don't have an oil cooler on the engine like all prior 911 engines?), that you won't run into with a earlier flat six.

The 964 engine actually runs the coolest of all the aircooleds, with a single remote oil cooler, not to mention a true twin-plug application if you want to run even higher compression. Making the engine work would be just as in-depth as making a 3.2 work -- tricking the DME into thinking all those extra systems are there and disabling a few (like computer-controlled throttle on tiptronic engines).

sorry to put this question in here but this subaru swap sounds interesting....

how much "customizing " do you have to do to the 914 to squeeze one in?

mike

QUOTE

how much "customizing " do you have to do to the 914 to squeeze one in?

Depends on how you do it... Currently there are two ways to do it that people have come up with. One way is the Renegade kit which only requires that you cut some holes in your front trunk for a radiator, hoses, and hot air outlets. The engine and transmission bolt in without any modifications to the rest of the car.

The other way, pioneered by Scott Thacher involves keeping the radiator in the engine bay. This allows you to keep both trunks intact, but does require some modification in the engine bay. Really the only modifications are some removal of part of the engine tin surround to make room for a radiator shroud, and a roughly U shaped bar that supports the engine from each side. This method requires the least cutting, but does require a small amount of welding, in addition to parts fabrication until someone start selling engine supports, etc.

-Tonyu

so are you using the subaru trans ?

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Dec 8 2005, 04:16 PM)

Youz guys crack me up. Ya'll run on & on about how much the 911 motor costs so much, expensive to rebuild, how you can get more-better-cheeper with a __________(fill in the blank). So, let's see em' on the road or track.....anywhere but in your dreams. Yet, for all the poor mouthing, guys are sticking the beauty from the 9elbmen in behind their shoulders all the time.....how stupid are we idots? Even more plan on it ....from what I read here. WTF?

911 motors aren't stupid, they're awesome. I have great respect for the 6, it's a great engine and a nice conversion. I just can't afford the 6 I want whilst continuing to feed the family. Plus - I kind of enjoy futzing around with open source engine management solutions - and if I trash an engine I don't want to be in the hole for an $8k engine. Simple. Nothing about the 6 - all about what interests me and meets my personal requirements.

-------

Google dictionary says:

wan·na·be also wan·na·bee (wŏn'ə-bē', wôn'-) pronunciation Informal.
n.

1. One who aspires to a role or position.
2. One who imitates the behavior, customs, or dress of an admired person or group.
3. A product designed to imitate the qualities or characteristics of something.


1. I do aspire to have a nice car that is quick and light, and fuel efficient when not being driven hard. I want my car to look good, and I have personal ideas about what that means (I'm thinking less Lexus and more Elise). In my mind this is a good thing.

2. Not really in to imitating. Actually - I got a 914 because they are kind of rare, and I'm doing a subie conversion becuase I want to be different from the mainstream.

3. Not so much. Looking for high output, low weight and low cost. If I wanted high output, and originality, I would do a 6.

So yeah. Looking for something cheap and light that has high output. No problem with 6s, they're just not for me. I'm not saying you should paint your house red because I painted my house red. I'm just expressing my view that red is a nice color. To me, red would lose a lot of it's appeal if everyone's house was red.

QUOTE

so are you using the subaru trans ?

I am not using the Subaru transmission. I don't know of anyone who has used one, but there are a few people working on that right now.

-Tony