Here's a link to a site, that shows coatings for aluminum cylinders, they have to be diamond honed. Coatings to rebuild crank journals, coatings for cam lobes, and more.

http://www.sulzermetco.com/eprise/Sulzerme...ions/case1.html

A friend of mine works for a company that is a joint effort between Sulzer and a local co. developing plasma sprayed SiC parts.

Plasma coatings can be tricky. Tried using some on a RF medical device to cook tissue. We had all sorts of adhesion and chipping issues.

Need to get the process down right to work. Nikasil has a bad rep with BMW's. They blame sulfer in US fuels which makes sulfuric acid and supposedly eats the coating.

Porsche & LN must know something BMW doesn't as I have never heard of this issue with their products. Charles at LN has stated he is very choosy as to who can do the nikasil for him and it is expen$ive.

I have seen manufacturing groups get into trouble with new lower cost processes , and many times it is something they don't understand, or some non-recommended step they have added to the process to make it easier that screws it up .... (we can make twice as many if we cut the coating time in half...)

Bottom line, takes time and testing to get it right. I like proven records myself.


Ken

QUOTE (kwales @ Dec 13 2005, 11:33 AM)

Plasma coatings can be tricky.  Tried using some on a RF medical device to cook tissue.  We had all sorts of adhesion and chipping issues.   Need to get the process down right to work.  Nikasil has a bad rep with BMW's.   They blame sulfer in US fuels which makes sulfuric acid and supposedly eats the coating.   Porsche & LN must know something BMW doesn't as I have never heard of this issue with their products.   Charles at LN has stated he is very choosy as to who can do the nikasil for him and it is expen$ive.   I have seen manufacturing groups get into trouble with new lower cost processes , and many times it is something they don't understand, or some non-recommended step they have added to the process to make it easier that screws it up ....   (we can make twice as many if we cut the coating time in half...) Bottom line, takes time and testing to get it right. I like proven records myself. Kenk Ken

You basically answered your statement on the BMW issue, they cheaped out and it bit them on the ass.

The LN cylinders are billet units and Charles doesn't cheap out on the Nikasil. The pistons are pricey due to LN having to buy off of European (not JE) because they have the rights to them. The ARP stuff is about the going rate.

Someone will do these cheaper some day, but the quality, support and cylinder guarantee will go out the window.

Competetive pricing would mean another company starts making a Billet cylinder, then tests it up to the level of the LN product and prices it COMPETETIVELY...

Now..... To this point NONE of the cylinders that have been marketed on a similar platform (aluminum and Nikisil plated) have any sort of comparative test work that has been accomplished.

Guess why?? because it takes test engine and a test platform AND MORE MONEY THAN THEY WILL MAKE FOR 3 YEARS to complete!

I proudly have assisted Charles with his R&D for the TIV, TI and 356 Nickies and have given him a break on dyno time and labor to help promote his eforts because he is dedicated to quality and refuses to let a dollar sign separate his product from "perfection". On numerous occasions we have built engines, swapped cylinders, swapped pistons, then changed ring types, then changed running clearances to see what the results were. This work is time consuming and costs 1500- 2K bucks per day! Charles has been doing this work with me for 5 years!

So when one thinks "competetive pricing, one ust also think "competetive product" thats because none of these cylinders I have seen so far have anything on Nickies-

The little escapade that Dave Hunt went through with his engine cost Charles and I both more than double what we profited from the sale. We have stood by that customer and I even offered to build the engine myself to dyno it and find out the issues. I'll bet you a thousand bucks no one else that makes cylinders would have even given a damn!

I am proud to put my name on engines that have LN cylinders installed. I am also glad to have been able to help develop these cylinders from just a thought from a guy that called me up one night and said " I want to make aluminum Nikisil cylinders for a TIV, will you help me" to a product that works unlike any other and unlocks so many possibilities.

With all this stir and with the perfect test beds coming up soon in my R&D line up (Turbo engines) looks like it's time to buyone set of each cylinder and have a shootout on the dyno. I'll proudly give my time and you can bet your sweet ass that if I'm spending my time doing it that parts WILL break and we will have some comparative results! Hell I'm good at testing other people's stuff- I did it with lifters for 16 months!

Yup,

Stated it that way for a reason. I've been through the school of hard knocks as an Engineer and am not sure a lotta posters have.

Sometimes you get what you pay for. Me, if I am going to the trouble to tear something apart, I'm going to rebuild it with decent stuff. I hate cheap parts crapping out on me. Then the fix is not so cheap- it includes the cost of the new good parts, a cost to repair damage, AND the cost of the crap.

Bottom line, junk is out there and fortunately for us, so is quality. Bless you Charles and Jake.

Now if we all were not such CHEEEP BASTIDS...

Me,. I gotta excuse- no job. But when THE job comes around, Kenny's getting the hangar queen tweaked with some of this new stuff that wasn't available when I put the engine together AND the virgin 2 liter heads off that spare engine.

Ken

I just hate products that are not fully developed! The kind that are sold and the seller doesn't know EVERYTHING about before taking someone's dollar... Before a product as important as a cylinder is sold it should be used at least 10 times with various settings and face scrutiny. It should be compared back to back against like products and then have data gathered. when that person takes the customer's dollar he should be able to answer EVERY question the customer will ask and not make the first assumption.

Things that are made, and then thrown onto the market for the customer base to test really piss me off. This is the cheap way of doing it- its the reason I totally removed myself from the Type I engine.

Hell I have been working on the 914 DTM for going on two years and for the last 8 months I knew that it worked very well, BUT I have taken the necessary time to address the issues of installation and make the kit easier to install. To do these products correctly takes time, money, dedication and trial and error.

Thats not the cheap or easy way- but the 9-5 guys love it all the way to the bank!

QUOTE (V6914 @ Dec 12 2005, 10:43 PM)

Here's a link to a site, that shows coatings for aluminum cylinders, they have to be diamond honed. Coatings to rebuild crank journals, coatings for cam lobes, and more. http://www.sulzermetco.com/eprise/Sulzerme...ions/case1.html

before you get too excited, will this company do small production runs or are they targeting the large OEMs that are cranking out 100,000 motors a year?

they might not even talk to you unless you plan on coating 10,000 parts a year......

QUOTE (kwales @ Dec 13 2005, 07:33 AM)

Need to get the process down right to work. Nikasil has a bad rep with BMW's. They blame sulfer in US fuels which makes sulfuric acid and supposedly eats the coating.

My neighbour has a 7 series BMW, and he got a new engine. I sounded like ALL 7 series cars got new engines for free. I'm with Mark, how come VW & Porsche have not the same problem as BMW? Are BMW engineers stupid? Sure cost them a bundle though.

Same old story, you only get what you pay for.

I don't expect that LN Engineering does their own Nik-A-Sil plating (nickel silicon carbide). I supect they worked very hard with their vendor to develop a stable process based on their cylinder design, and implemented processing standards. Otherwise, the result would be no better than that provided to anyone else. I've forgotten most of the platers that do this process (US Chrome in WI comes to mind), but I've found that you have to keep a keen eye on any of their work, particularly with the honing finish and tolerance.

Andys

BMW used Alu-sil for their processes.. Its a derivative of Nikisil and it is cheaper.

LN uses Millenium Technologies for the plating of their cylinders. Millenium has the processes down better than anyone and they give a lifetime warranty on their plating.

I have one very early Nickies engine that was returned to me at 100K miles for an inspection. The plating still has the cross hatch and wear wasn't measurable on the cylinders or pistons at all.. The rings only gained .002 of end gap over their installed dimensions... On the fish scale the ring tension was un-measurable from the day the engine was built.

That was a 2563cc engine that made 195HP and 215 Tq the day it was born.... It was builot before we were using ceramic lifters and the customer really wanted to upgrade to them and at the same time we were able to attain valuable data about the Nickies after 100K of use.... They don't wear.

Buyy something else and you may as well be playing the lottery!

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Dec 13 2005, 02:59 PM)

I have one very early Nickies engine that was returned to me at 100K miles for an inspection. The plating still has the cross hatch and wear wasn't measurable on the cylinders or pistons at all.. The rings only gained .002 of end gap over their installed dimensions... ...and at the same time we were able to attain valuable data about the Nickies after 100K of use.... They don't wear.

I wish people would think of this when they plunk down some cash.

These Nickies have cost this guy about .33 cents a mile…and they’re still good to go.
Another 100K and they’re down to .15 cents a mile.

If you think long term cost vs. return you will tend to choose better parts.
That is if you’re smart.

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Dec 13 2005, 11:41 AM)

That is if you’re smart.

Or if you are not one that looks at initial costs only compared to return on that investment..

The problem is not "Competetively priced prducts" but rather competetively developed and tested products and those to get the job done without letting the dollar sign get in the way!

Alusil is used by KS, Nikasil by Mahle. 911 Alusil equipped engines have treated pistons, Nikasil engines have treated cylinders. That makes them competitive products, not derivative products. The Mahle product, at least on the air cooled 911s, has always been the preferred choice in the marketplace. Note that the pistons of one may NOT be used in conjunction with the cylinders of the other. Here are a couple of interesting links, which somewhat explain the advantages and disadvantages of the 2 processes. Note, though, that SOME of the information appears to be conflicting.

http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_boring_tr...erybodys_ideas/

http://www.lnengineering.com/type4.html

Ain't Google wonderful?

The Cap'n

I'm sure Charles will chime in soon with the clarifications- He's the guy that has studied this stuff for the past 5+ years and can give us a better understanding of each..

Alusil............

Mmmmmmmm....Mmmmmmmmm....BADDDDDDDD!!!!!

Ask any sucker that bought a Chebby Vega..... Aluminum block, acid etch to expose silicon, cast iron rings to rub equals big bore wear, oil blowby, and and exploded engine.

Some people think that the Vega was built to convince the american public that small cars are bad.....

Any wonder why Vega's switched to cast iron liners?

As I stated before. Some things you just can't hurry or cheapen. To get a process right, you have to spend time and money and testing to find the correct process. Once you find it and get it into production, watch out to ensure that some idiot doesn't decide to change it, or cheapen it, or speed it up.


Anyway, ain't nuttin like success to show who knows and who just thinks they do...

Ken

Alusil is the actual aluminum, made by Reynolds/K.S., and the pistons get iron plated. Significantly cheaper but rebuildability is questionable at best. Just look at the sizable alusil threads on Pelican on the matter. Remmelle (sp?) in France makes a cast alusil cylinder with cast iron plated pistons.

The cost difference on the JE pistons is that I do my pistons one set at a time, fully custom, with options like h11 tool steel pins, light or re-inforced skirts, internal lightening, split oil returns, dual forced pin oilers as well as custom domes and dishes. You don't get that from an off the shelf piston from anyone else. That's the difference there.

What about alloys? We had Alcoa meet with us to develop the alloy we use now that has 54k psi tensile and 53k psi ultimate yield strength. Factory Porsche cylinders were on average 32k psi. Factory Porsche cylinders had their nikasil plating about .001-0015" thick vs. our plating at .004-.005" thick, allowing for multiple re-hones, etc, where a factory one is questionable to re-hone as you go through in most cases if trying to correct for ovality from wear. The process Millennium uses on our cylinders took them weeks to fine tune for optimal adhersion. Also, we did the engineering and found that factory head studs or even chromoly ones would not work with an aluminum cylinder. Jake found this out on his own even. We contacted ARP through their customs department and have limited runs of hardware made for every application for this reason. Attention to detail rather than finding the cheap way out has developed a name for us- a name I wouldn't sacrifice by trying to cut corners.

There is a good reason CMW uses our products when Bob himself is a lifelong friend of the founder of JE who now has their own line of cast nikasil cylinders, which are notibly cheaper than ours.

BTW, there will always be knockoffs, but who will be there for you in the end. I don't do this to get rich, I do it because I live and breath Porsche and love working with those people I do business with. Those of you who have done business with you know that I go far and beyond just your cylinders, not because I'm trying to make more money, but because I care.

End rant.

Charles that was an Excellent post...

You do care MORE THAN ANY MANUFACTURER I HAVE EVER WORKED WITH!!!

Nothing is ever good enough with Charles- Hell now he and I are working together to blend our own oils just for specific engines!

And for those who know our quality, our own billet E4340AQ steel rods are coming soon in both H and I Beam and in custom lengths, journals, pins, etc. Jake will be the only authorized dealer for them other than myself. Pics to come shorly on our web site.

My 400HP 2081cc engine will be getting one of the first sets of those rods as a test mule..

Thanks for another infomertial, fellas.....

Thanks to the original poster for the opportunity........

Jake you are incorrigible

Is that another way to say that I'm an asshole????? If it is, then Hell yeah!

LOL

its ok the thread turned into an infomercial..

Alternatives are needed

Mahle has the market, Kolben-Schmidt has always been replaced by Mahle.

It nice that there is an alternative to just Mahle..

Ok I finally have enough time to reply to this.

As some of you know I've been trying to get an engine put together with parts I got through Jake. The most expensive part of the package was some 96 mm Nickies and JE pistons. I wish it all would have gone together the first time and been as simple as I dreamed of but, things have not worked out that way. The failures can be attributed to problems with the oil control rings supplied with the pistons from JE. In both cases they failed in under a thousand miles and the car started smoking like a 2 cycle. These failures seem to be limited to my engine alone. These failures allow me to comment from the perpective of a product that hasn't lived up to my expectations and because of that I have gotten a unique opportunity to view the business practices and character of both Charles at LN and Jake.

At this point if it wasn't for their dedication to customer satisfaction I would be stuck with a very expensive boat anchor. Since this failure is limited to my engine which I assembled they certainly could have said that I screwed it up. Instead, they have bent over backwards to try and help me. Jake has offered to assemble my kit for free and dyno it and if I wasn't so stubborn I'd have taken him up on it. And Charles has shipped my stuff all over the country to experts to look for the causes. On top of that, he has offered to replace my stuff with new if the problems continue. I'm sure both of these guys have nightmares about me.

Currently, I'm trying a different oil control ring with higher tension. The engine is quite tight and I'm worried about it. But, Charles said "Fire it up I got your backside covered".

I still believe in their product. But, the source of that belief is the people behind the product. Absolutely the best customer support.

Dave

Glad to hear there are still some business owners out there that care about their customers.

Rings used for nik-a-sil cylinders are different than those for cast iron cylinders; I forget the metallurgy right off. This is mature technology, so the solution ought to be available. Also could be nothing more than a defective set of oil rings; it can happen.

Andys

I dynoed an engine yesterday (all day) that had the same pistons, rings, cylinders and vclearances as Dave's new set up.. I took base line numbers and then beat the shit out of it... I did hot and cold compression and leakdown checks as well as measuring rotational drag at various stages of the sessions. The results were positive and after 10 hours of run time there was no oil consumption noted. I feel quite positive that the newest arrangement Dave has is the final key to this mystery that has only effected him. I have built dozens of Nickies engines and have never experienced these oddities, except in one test engine that we purposely ran total seal rings in just to see if they would work- no dice.

A customer like dave is a godsend.. He WANTED to get to the bottom of this as much as Charles and I needed him to. Even after I offered to build the bitch for free and dyno it to ensure the issues were 100% solved he still persisted to be our guinea pig.

Dave's case is a classic example of what can happen if Nikisil technology is not utilized the *right* way and proves that issues can result even when something is developed and tested and used over and over again. That should be a prime example of the necessity of testing a product like this and certainly what is destined to happen if its not.

My other " hobby" is High performance outboard boats. ALL high end outboards are nyc'd. otherwise they wear out in 15-20 hours vs 120+ hours. These motors turn 10K+ rpms in short bursts, and will run for an hour straight @ 7500.

Nycasiling a 2.5L v-6 block costs just over a grand, plus shipping, as there is only one quality place in the US. And the will not do what Jake and Charles have done here if you dont use they're exact recomended parts. Even if you do, it's 50-50 if they'll help

People have tried lots of different cylinder liners trying to get more longevity, or lower costs, and as far as i know, NOTHING holds up as well.

BJH

I also have to add that Dave is the best sport and most understanding customer I have had to date, and when it comes to the old saying "if you fail, try, try again," Dave sure has tried harder and longer than most would hang in there. I consulted with CMW Motorsports on the oddity of the oil consumption and blowby and they pointed towards a design flaw in the oil ring that had never been an issue in our extensive use of the same style and family ring in bore sizes from 90.5mm to 102mm. JE had blamed the problem on ring gap and customer error, but Bob felt differently and it took two trips to JE and countless arguements for JE to cough up an alternative ring that "didn't exist" to fix this problem, one that they had had previously and Bob had brought to their attention. Without his relationship to the founder of JE, we may have never really found a solution other than going back to KB pistons and rings we have found that work flawlessly on the KB's.

Not to add more fuel to the fire, but for those following Jake's 3 Liter, he's just taken it apart to make a cam swap and for general inspection. Here's the down low: http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/r_d_3_OH_p2.htm. The custom JEs we designed and fitted to our Nickies in the 105.07mm bore size was set up with .001" total piston to cylinder clearance. As you can see, the JE forging and our cylinders are a good match for both performance and longevity. For those familiar with this ongoing discussion, the minimum clearance this same JE would need in a Mahle cylinder is in excess of .0025" (that's the minimum!), and even then, they don't do so well, hence the debate of JE's longevity in Mahles on Pelican and other forums. With Nickies, it's just not a problem.

Those cylinders, pistons and rings are flawless even after countless flogging and TWENTY SEVEN dyno runs... If those were cast iron cylinders they'd be worn out after 10K miles- these have 13K on them....

I was so damn impressed I have called over some of my Nascar buddies to check the wear out! They stopped by earlier and said the cylinders don't even look like the engine ever fired up!

This is the same way the 100K mile set looked...

Charles have you talked with the guys at Perfect Bore. They do all of the coatings for the Corvette C5 and C6R factory LS1-LS7 engines as well as the Hendrix Cup motors. They can probably shed some light on the ring issue.

Perfect Bore has had their own problems with their Porsche cylinders, just ask CMW, among others. Being that Perfect Bore is now owned by Dover (who owns JE) and now closely works with JE on pistons and rings for their cylinders, you would have thought that JE themselves would have caught their own problem and provided a solution as they also sell their own ringsets for nikasil. The problem we had with the oil control rings wasn't a nikasil compatibility issue, just a piss poor design that can and has caused people problems for years by their own admission. I'm glad I have the working relationship with CMW that I do and enjoy working with them, so no big deal. :-)

Have you ever dealt with Wiseco. They seem to have a better product than JE. Wiesco has their own piston facility. From what I understand JE does not. Wiesco has always done lots of two stroke stuff so they probably have a good understanding of what Nikasil cylinders and coatings require.

For some reason when JE went bigtime corporate they lost a lot of what made them good. CP is also making a good product from what I understand. Haven't dealt with them but I have heard several people that are happy with them as well.

I have had customers send me wisecos and I wasn't very impressed. Other than this one problem with JE, they have taken care of me very well, and do make a nice fully custom piston for the price. On top of that, they work so well with Nickies that I don't want to change. CP does make a bitchin piston, as does omega, and others, but the price puts them out of the typical customer's budget. You are totally right though about the change in how JE functioned after the takeover/buyout- I had a rep that I loved working with and he left to work for CP :-(

There is no way a Wiseco piston could run in my 3 Liter cylinder at .001! I have measured the expansion between the two in the oven and noted the expansion and contraction of each and the results were near unbelievable... This was especially true at lower piston temperatures, and thats the most important time in the compatibility of the piston/cylinder. A piston that expands a ton when its warming up can quickly give the same result as it would if ran in a cast iron cylinder with less than adequate clearance.

Wiesco makes two different types of pistons one uses 2618 and the other uses 4032. There is a different expansion rate for each piston. The 2618 will not expand as much, from what I understand the Nickies are made from the 2618. In a water cooled application the 4032 will require at least .004 of clearences in a 84mm bore. Where as the 2618 will require about .0021-.0028 depending on skirt and piston design.

I have had the opposite experience JEs garbage and Wisecos super nice. If they are working with you stick with them. I know they have come up with a couple of solutions to things like Microwelding the top ring to the ring lands.

OOOOHHHH Omega, they and Cosworth Give me wood, but you are right most customers would freak if they saw a piston bill for 10K$

Brett, you have the forgings confused :-) The 2618 is the non-silicon alloy forging. (don't feel bad, I had to pull out the tech sheets for each to double check myself) The 2618 is best suited to the proprietary 6-series alloy designed by Alcoa for our Nickies. JE's recommended clearance for an aluminum aircooled cylinder with the 2618 forging is .0025-.0035" for n/a applications. In Jake's 3 liter, those Nickies just needed .001" total p/c clearance at the same bore size. We have set up Nickies for 4032 forgings, cast mahle pistons, KBs, etc, but every piston reacts differently and we've had to find what clearances work best for each.

Even at .00075 skirt clearance the expansion is still spot on.... The ability to run these extremely tight clearances is the biggest power adder the Nickies have brought to us so far- keeping the chamber free of oil deposits makes power and even keeps the spark plugs alive longer when running oils that have a lot of Zinc..

damn, my memory is failing me in my old age. I was trying to work from memory. I should have dug out the emails Shad and I traded. I was thinking you were making them from a 2XXX series alloy becuase of the strength. Hence using a 2618 with a piston of the same forging would keep the expansion ratios closely aligned.

Most of the shitty JE SRP line is made of the high silicon forging. That is why the JE's that Aircooled.Net and European Racing sell require something on the order of .0040-.0045 in cast iron 96mm cylinders. YUCK.

I just built a water cooled motor with the Wiseco low silicon forgings and it was running .0021-.0023 cylinderwall clearences. These pistons were running the cylinder wall clearences less than a .001 over the stock piston to wall clearance. If I had run the SRP or CP pistons I would have had to run close to .004 .


You are right every piston requires different clearences. Pin hieght, design, skirt design, crown thickness, and piston material all influence piston to wall clearance.

My experiences lately have all been with small bore watercooled engines so some of my applications will obviously differ from yours.

Since Shad left a whole ton of things have been updated with the Nickies... I'd venture to say pretty much everything you and he talked about now has a variation or a change...

Figures.