There has been a lot of talk recently about affordable engine upgrades for the 914, namely larger displacement Type IV engines and Subaru conversions.

It looks as though a Type IV with 125 HP will cost about $5000 to do. It also looks like a Subaru conversion, using the Renegade kit (or a DIY conversion) will run somewhere around the same price for 165-180 HP (or more with a turbo engine).

So the poll question is if you had $5000 to spend on an upgrade for your 914, would you rather have a Type IV or a Subaru conversion?

As far as I know, no one yet offers a complete drop-in solution for the Subaru conversion, whereas a Type IV can be purchased and dropped in with little effort.

-Tony

Talkto Mark about building you a type IV...then put it in and enjoy the car...

There are few places that you can exercise a car to its full potential except a track anyways.....

Get a motor in it and drive.

Rich

i vote for suby power!!

has anyone looked into the subaru automatic as to how hard it would be to install.It would be a great daily driver for the city folk in heavy traffic. for us old people.

Bernie

Do subarus *HAVE* to have those nasty water-to-air heat exchangers?

QUOTE

Do subarus *HAVE* to have those nasty water-to-air heat exchangers?

Only if you want them to last more than 10 minutes or so. Though they don't tend to require an oil-to-air heat exchanger...

-Tony

If I go through all the work of a water-cooled engine conversion, it will be to get 300hp. STi turbo or SBC. Otherwise I would just bolt up the Raby/McMark $5k motor.

I vote for the T-IV.

It's just simpler, and I want MY teener to remain air cooled.

BUT..I salute you Suby guys. I would love to drive a Porscharu. Might make me change my mind.


Now, aks me the same question about my water boxer syncro vanagon..

SUBY ALL THE WAY in that beast.

QUOTE

If I go through all the work of a water-cooled engine conversion, it will be to get 300hp. WRX turbo or SBC. Otherwise I would just bolt up the Raby/McMark $5k motor.

What if someone made a kit, where the radiator were in the engine bay? So it would be a bolt in kit.... The renegade kit does require a front radiator...

I'm not planning on getting into the business of making kits, I'm really just curious what interest there is in either camp.

-Tony

I'm for keeping my 914 type 4 powered. I think the suby is a great engine but if I wanted one I would have bought the Subaru car to go with it. I feel the same re. V 8 conversions, if you want to do that well okay but it isn't a teener in the real sense anymore. This then raises the question of" what if you upgrade the stereo " does the same arguement still apply, argueably yes! I don't have a concours 914, nor will I, but I think it is still a real teener if it has the type 4. My 2 cents.

Ian Stott

I am doing a BOP 215V8 conversion, and I am thinking of ways to keep the front trunk. When it's done I post the cost and time for the conversion. I just bought a running 215V8 for $360.00. I would also like to drive a subaru conversion! A modern engine would be nice!!!

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Dec 20 2005, 04:18 PM)

QUOTE If I go through all the work of a water-cooled engine conversion, it will be to get 300hp. WRX turbo or SBC. Otherwise I would just bolt up the Raby/McMark $5k motor. What if someone made a kit, where the radiator were in the engine bay? So it would be a bolt in kit.... The renegade kit does require a front radiator... I'm not planning on getting into the business of making kits, I'm really just curious what interest there is in either camp. -Tony

Hmm... that would be sweet.

Could an engine-bay radiator keep an STi turbo motor cool? THAT would really rock!

QUOTE

Could an engine-bay radiator keep an STi turbo motor cool? THAT would really rock!

Well, nobody knows for sure, because it hasn't been tried, but chances are that it can't be done without some serious scoops, etc.

-Tony

My answer seems to fluctuate from day to day. Today it happened to be T-IV, but watch me talk myself into changing my mind.

Both will deliver good mileage, but the Suby could take a taller 5th because it doesn't require RPM for cooling. Factory EFI and modern engine tech will reduce the maintenance. I never regret having more HP on tap... Yep, Suby's the answer.

But the 914 is a classic and the T-IV keeps the all the stock accessories, any good example should be kept "original". Maybe T-IV is the right way to go...

On the other hand, have you guys seen that burnout video? Hmmm, I guess I don't know after all...

Eric

How many ways can this question be asked??????

I too enjoyed the burnout video, and I love the idea of a Subaru conversion as much as anyone, but I'm surprised that video has caused so much Suby worship. Maybe Jake or McMark should make a burnout video since that seems to be so effective at selling people on a motor.

Gimme 2 months....
I have a true beast to unleash and its only 2081cc...
But I won't be doing it to sell anything- just for the hell of it...

heart and soul of a 914..is an aircooled beast....

I'm not sure this is important in your decision criteria, but if you ever want to run on a road course with PCA you'll need to keep the Porsche motor!

On the other hand I really enjoyed the 914/Subaru burnout movie and have sent it around our local PCA region!

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Dec 20 2005, 06:38 PM)

heart and soul of a 914..is an aircooled beast....

My 914 IS my modern car! My triumph although slightly newer is more ancient technology by far, my old VW's, well they are old (newest is a 1970, oldest is a 1958) i do have a Vanagon, but it is a van, not a car, so it don't count, even so it is almost old enough to vote!

To me a "modern car" is anything after say 1975 year model, give or take depending on model/make.


Subaru would be great with cooling int he rear, just need to figure how to do it.
I theory you should be able to do it, as there air cooled motors of simular power that run with only rear cooling (no front radiator) so I would think cooling requirements (BTU's removed) woudl be roughly the same. Just need differentr packaging to get the cooling. The subaru offers the advantage over teh V8's of being small, thus giving more engine bay room for a cooling system mounted back there in the engine bay.

My 912E is my modern car.... The old models go all the way back to '54 or so..

Hell This has been my daily driver for the last 8K miles or so.... It's aircooled and I love it!


driving one of these bad boys makes you understand just how modern and luxurious the 914 really is- but there is nothing like the whine of a ZF differential coupled to the growl of a set of Super Swampers while the engine is at full song at 65 MPH...

someday when i'm able to afford a pimped out 2.5L /4, i'll buy a kit....

for now i'm still running my 1.7

b

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Dec 20 2005, 05:37 PM)

How many ways can this question be asked??????

All the buzz around subaru conversions - I'm going to have to do something else if I want to continue my originality streak.






Actually - 4k to 7krpm really hauls ass.

Oh yeah - and mine didn't cost $5k. It's closer to $2.5k for the engine, adaptor, radiator, ECU.

QUOTE

Oh yeah - and mine didn't cost $5k. It's closer to $2.5k for the engine, adaptor, radiator, ECU.

I agree... So far at least a few of the Subaru converts ahve done it VERY cheaply. It definitely can be done cheaply if you are willing to fabricate, experiment, etc. I think a good many people are interested in a drop in solution however, and that probably would come at a cost.

-Tony

Well, I drive a 2004 subaru as my daily driver. Part of the reason I wanted a 914 was the air cooled engine.

I like the idea of cheap HP, but I'd rather keep my 914 air cooled.

Zach

as much as I love the purity of the TIV, if I had 5k around to do the engine, I think the Scoobie would be a blast... SBC can be done for 5k too though, I believe...

It really all depends on what you want the power for.

Do you just want the power so you can boil away your rear tires doing burnouts at the local high school parking lot? - Suby

Do you want power for the occasional canyon carving? - Suby

Do you -ever- want to resell the car? - Type IV

Do you -ever- want to drive the car in a competitive event? - Type IV

The suby, like the chebby, is cheap power in a compact package. But the resale value of the car will not be as high with the suby unless you really find the right buyer. And if you ever want to drive the car competitively, the Type IV is the way to go. In PCA, you can't even enter unless the car is P-Powered. Be it a 4 or a 6. And if you take a Porscharu to an SCCA event, track or autox, you will find yorself classed with the trailer-riding-fire-breathing-monsters, and will never have a ghost of a chance unless you're in a class of 1.

Just my $0.03...

Me, I vote for Type IV. Why? Becuase the car was meant to be DRIVEN! And you really can't push the car to 100% outside of a competition event unless you happen to be REALLY friendly with the local constabulary...

-Josh2

For the novelty value only, I would keep a 914 aircooled, but physics says water is a better cooling medium than air. Plus the modern engine technology is vastly superior to the T4. Four valves per cylinder, comparable displacments, same efficent packaging, just makes the subaru a better version of the T4. When you can build a 300hp 2.5 that will rev past 8K in street trim and still have great tractablility, you can't lose. Add boost and you can go over 600 in street trim. Nough' said.

QUOTE (jhadler @ Dec 21 2005, 08:10 AM)

The suby, like the chebby, is cheap power in a compact package. But the resale value of the car will not be as high with the suby unless you really find the right buyer. And if you ever want to drive the car competitively, the Type IV is the way to go. In PCA, you can't even enter unless the car is P-Powered. Be it a 4 or a 6. And if you take a Porscharu to an SCCA event, track or autox, you will find yorself classed with the trailer-riding-fire-breathing-monsters, and will never have a ghost of a chance unless you're in a class of 1.

Good points....

There are some local car clubs (norcal) which provide a reasonable forum for track based motorsport for custom and highly modified cars (CFRC and NCRC).

How bad is it to run with the SCCA though... is a 300HP 914 simply not competitive in those classes? Anyone have mor info on what the likely competition is?

good points, I was actually looking at reliability/parts availability aspect of the suby... t4 parts are getting more expensive and harder to find... you can run down to autozone and get Suby parts... 5k is a lot of money, I'd want future-proofing for that $$$

that said, I plan on keeping aircooled for me, and if I had 5 large, I dprobably stick it back until I had 7-8k for a -6...

and no, resale value never enters my mind... I'd have a vette or a chevelle if I was worried about reselling the car and turning a buck

QUOTE

Do you -ever- want to resell the car? - Type IV

I'm beginning to have doubts about this. If you look at the results of the poll so far, there seems to be reasonable interest in the Subaru conversion. I'm willing to bet a nicely done conversion would have no more trouble being sold than a Type IV powered car. I think its easy to say it would be hard to sell simply because there's no data to show otherwise.

QUOTE

Do you -ever- want to drive the car in a competitive event? - Type IV

Maybe its worth doing another poll here, to see how many 914 owners have done more than take their cars to autocrosses, or track days. Many of those events are open to any car, any engine. I'm willing to bet that only a small minority of the sum total of 914 owners have any real aspirations of racing in PCA or SCCA. Its certainly a valid point to be made that if you want to race you need to stick to a stock type engine, but again the poll results show that there's still a significant interest despite that.

-Tony

QUOTE (Brett W @ Dec 21 2005, 11:11 AM)

For the novelty value only, I would keep a 914 aircooled, but physics says water is a better cooling medium than air.  Plus the modern engine technology is vastly superior to the T4.  Four valves per cylinder, comparable displacments, same efficent packaging, just makes the subaru a better version of the T4.  When you can build a 300hp 2.5 that will rev past 8K in street trim and still have great tractablility, you can't lose.  Add boost and you can go over 600 in street trim.  Nough' said.

Hi Brett,

I think you may be a bit overstated on your power claims - though I see them all the time on this board, and its not just you.

The 300hp 2.5 stock engine is the turbo engine from the STi - its not a NA engine. The 2.5 NA engine is 165 HP. Its also the engine that I drive in my subaru. There are some things that you can do to get more power from it, but I have not heard of any street NA engines making near 300 HP. The NA engine does not have the aftermarket support that the turbo motor does. Also, a 300 HP NA motor is not going to be had for $5K, unless it is burned up. They are not cheap to build.

Now, the turbo motor for the scoobs is pretty hard core. But again, there are not many (if any) street 2.5T motors turning 600 hp. Most of the modded STi street engines are between 350-450 hp (most 2.0 WRX motors modded are between 250-350hp - with a huge aftermarket). And again, not cheap to build, but a large aftermarket.

I know that many of you already know this, but if you are serious about doing a Scoob swap, go to www.nasioc.com and start reading. Scooby engines are great engines with a lot of potential, but I often seem them being overstated on this board.

Zach

PS, my username on Nabisco is the same as my name here, though I am usually on the OT section.

Well, I have driven the "burn out car" several times, and what the video does not show you is the other side of the coin. This suby EJ20 turbo engine is like my Yamaha YZ250F dirtbike... sort of a Doctor Jeckle - Mr. Hyde kinda thing. If you want to lug it around town without all of the wheelspin? ...no problem. If on the other hand, you want to wipe the occasional Mustang Gt clean off the road? Simply rev it up and you will prolly kick thier ass. The best thing about this conversion is the gas mileage. Dana is getting between 30 and 33mpg.

I have invested under 5K in the engine dept.
04' EJ20 turbo
Adaptor plate
ECU/Harness
Renegade kit

Heck, it only took me 1500 to do a sbc conversion....



With that said, I would like one of each.

Daily driver would be a subi conversion... simply put.

z06 stomper would be sbc conversion

and 911 eater would be big T4.

Andrew

Why not just do what I want to do:
in a 914 keep it an a/c 4-cyl (see McMark's post in the other forum)
for a 6-cyl fix get a 911 (or 930 )
for a v8 pickup an old muscle car or hotrod (or go to the juice isle)
for a V6 I have my Audi.

We can all get along...we just need a big sack of cash and a huge garage (unfortunately I have neither).

The competition aspect...

Yes, there are a lot of clubs that host open track events, and allow the run-what-ya-brung cars. But that's just hot lapping, that's not competition. As soon as times and trophies come in to play, the rules get a little more picky. PCA will just say "go home" to a conversion car that's running anything other than a P-Car motor (yes, even a 928 motor is still legal in PCA).

But other clubs that have to contend with more than just one marque, like the SCCA will not kick you out, but you will be classed where such modifications are legal. At a regional level, a scooby powered 914 -might- be comepetitive in E-Mod. Especially if it's the only car in the class. But a full blown E-Mod car is not a street car. It's beyond a production race car, it's beyond a GT car. Picture a "fiero" with an Aluminum block V8 mated to a formula atlantic chassis and suspension, big wide slick tires, then plop a one piece fiberglass shell that -Looks- like a fiero on top, and you have the makings of E-Modified. The only requirements in that class really are that they maintain the profile of the original car, retain the floor pan from bulkhead to firewall, and have to weigh a minimum of I think 1700 lbs. Ooh, or a three-rotor powered bugye sprite that's been cut and widened to fit the motor...

That's the only class in the SCCA rules set that would allow non-porsche engines in a P-car. Or D-Mod if the motor is under 2.0L..

Depending on where you live, you might be the only one in the class, but that's no fun, who are you competitnig with? Or, you might wind up in a region where someone has built, or is building, a full blown E-Mod car. And then you'd most likley be trophy foder...

Other clubs have different rules as well. But for the most part, when you open up the rules to allow learly unlimited engine swaps, you've already opened the flood gates for cubic dollar cars....

I don't mean to paint a bleak picture here, and I know that I have a particular bent on this. I feel the 914 should be driven as it was bred to do, in competition. They're wonderful road cars too, but I personally might not be as enthusiastic if I couldn't race it. I know others will feel differently than I do about this. And lord knows, we all love having more power!! But if I couldn't legally stretch the legs, what good is 300 hp in a sub 2,000 lb car? Getting from stoplight to stoplight faster than anyone else?.... Bleh!. Gimme a track!! Or at least a whole bunch of cones!!!

Then ol' smokey can't do a thing, and I can have fun without worring about some drunk moron in a F350 running a stop sign or crossing the double yellow on a canyon road and taking me out... (no offense to the big pick-em-up drivers out there, just using it as an example...) I worry about that enough going to and from work every day.

-Josh2

What does D-mod look like?

My motor is just shy of 2.0L....

Oh - and good points again

If you give renegade a car a chk for $5K , oh and a motor(more $)! will they give you back a completed conversion?

QUOTE (fiid @ Dec 21 2005, 11:58 AM)

What does D-mod look like? My motor is just shy of 2.0L.... Oh - and good points again

D-Mod? Just like E-Mod except with smaller motors... In other words... A tube framed lotus Europa with a race built Ztec 1999 cc motor... Yeah, push-rod suspension, big slicks, and a I think a 1500 lb minimum weight... Or was it 1250?...

Just as nuts, and in some ways worse. Because people try to get more power out of really small engines, where in E-Mod people jsut slap a 350 crate motor in there and can be happy for a while. Until they feel the need to add a supercharger that is... Really, D and E mod are nutso classes. SM and SM2 are too, they just haven't been around long enough for many people to build cars to the limit of the rules...

-Josh2

I am well aware of what these motors make in stock. The numbers I am referring to are far from stock. Will you get these motors for the listed 5K? NO, but the potential to do this is there, where the stock T4 can't even come close.

Therare motors out there making big power, are they cheap, no. I know hondas that are driven on the street making 600+. Are they daily driven like that, No they turn the boost down and run them in the four hundred range. HP cost money whether it is NA or Turbo. I know NA hondas making 250 at the wheels froma 1.8 litre engine, I have seen 2.0s making 300 at the flywheel. Yes they are expensive but they are street trim motors. And street cars.

Sub'ys can make that kind of power. I can get 400 on a stock motor with upgrades in turbo and fuel management.

QUOTE (jhadler @ Dec 21 2005, 12:06 PM)

QUOTE (fiid @ Dec 21 2005, 11:58 AM) What does D-mod look like? My motor is just shy of 2.0L.... Oh - and good points again D-Mod? Just like E-Mod except with smaller motors... In other words... A tube framed lotus Europa with a race built Ztec 1999 cc motor... Yeah, push-rod suspension, big slicks, and a I think a 1500 lb minimum weight... Or was it 1250?... Just as nuts, and in some ways worse. Because people try to get more power out of really small engines, where in E-Mod people jsut slap a 350 crate motor in there and can be happy for a while. Until they feel the need to add a supercharger that is... Really, D and E mod are nutso classes. SM and SM2 are too, they just haven't been around long enough for many people to build cars to the limit of the rules... -Josh2

It does seem to be difficult to get competitive there.

Having said that - at least you can take part in the event and get some seat time. The PCA just takes it's ball and goes home.

Yep. SCCA has a place for pretty much everything under the sun. Not neccessarilly a -competitive- place, but a place nonetheless...

But if competition isn't a desire, then it doesn't matter what class you're in, just drive it and have fun!!!

-Josh2

Hi Brett,
I'm not flaming you, but I am disagreeing with your premise.

I see very high numbers passed around this forum for the Scoob engines. And I know that they can make that power with enough money. But those engines really push what could be considered a street engine, and simply arn't attainable by most people. The runtime of a Subaru EJ25T 600 HP motor (and also a 300HP NA motor) is measured in hours, and the cost is similar to a very highly built Raby motor, or a big Porsche 6. Its not within the scope of what we are talking about.

As you said, a better up and down pipe, better engine management bigger turbo and some other go fast goddies can put the EJ20T into the high 200s and low 300s, and the same can put the STi motor into the mid-high 300s. And it can be done without selling your first born. But even that is pushing the scope of this topic, as it woud place it well outside the $5K area. For the NA motor, there are not that many bolt on options - excluding spraying - that will put it past the 190HP mark without some serious $$$. NO2 will do it, but then you have a whole other ball of twine to deal with.

Where the Subaru motor shines is in the stock or near stock format. Its cheap, pretty much bullet proof, emission friendly, and has 100 HP more then the McMark/Raby T4 $5K offering - while still being in stock format, and without the added weight of the SMC or P6.

Its an attractive offering, that I am sure a lot of owners are very interested in.

A lot of other owners, including myself, would feel that such a conversion eats away at the soul of the car. Personally, if I wanted an older hot watebox, I would have bought a BMW 2002tii, or a Datsun 240Z (both cars that still produce drool puddles for me when I see them - and always will).

Zach

QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Dec 21 2005, 12:01 PM)

If you give renegade a car a chk for $5K , oh and a motor(more $)!  will they give you back a completed conversion?

Nope, the prices quoted are for kits. You'd have to turn all the wrenches yourself. The RH stuff would set you back just over $3k for the bolt in parts and radiator set-up. There's probably another $500 or $800 in random stuff, leaving about $1k for the engine. YMMV

Eric

So now I think were back on the beam....
After taking a OT turn, ..so there is no KIT that will provide a Rad setup w/o cuting up the car, yet.
RH Rad kit is frt trk mounted correct?
So for $5K In one hand we have a complete new warrentied(?) engine (albeit with fewer pony's than the 20yrs newer scooby technology), that Im sure most of would feel comfortable simply bolting in and attaching some tubes and wires.
On the other hand we have a used motor (?) Kit parts and or fab skills which may or may not necessatate cutting up your car ....

QUOTE

so there is no KIT that will provide a Rad setup w/o cuting up the car, yet. RH Rad kit is frt trk mounted correct?

Correct. No one makes a kit where the radiator is in the engine bay. But I think its practical that someone COULD make a kit with engine bay cooling that would be in the $5000 neighborhood, with engine. It wouldn't make much profit, but I figure it could be done.

-Tony

I'm sorry(?), but I had to vote for the disposable Suby motor

...for $5K, one should be able to have one heck of a conversion since the engine alone is less than one-fifth of that price....

What would it cost to drop a 2.4 T E or S into the 914?
I see them on ebay all the time and I know most of them require a 2-3K rebuild but I would have thought for 5K you could put a P6 into your teener, keep it all P and still have 165-190hp. ????