I just installed the turbo tie rods and did not install the washer that came with the kit that goes between the tie rod and the steering rack - are these needed?



That's what I was afraid of!! They were a bitch to tighten and they will be impossible when I install the washer.

Yes! They keep you fromn overextending (and destroying) the steering rack.

You need the washers. Without then you will never be able to set the toe

It seems some cars need them and others don't. I could not use them on my 74 because it caused a large toe-in condition. The washers made the tie rod's too long compared to the ones that came off. I asked the same question and was told that the washers are spacers, not rack stops. I don't think they have anything to do with protecting the rack - I've gone lock-to-lock plenty of times without the washers and my steering rack seems just fine.

Maybe someone knows the answer to this, or has the right parts to verify it.

I put Lemforder turbo tie rods on my 914, which has early 911 struts, the kind
with 3" caliper bolt spacing. Using the thick washers that come with the tie rods
I am not able to eliminate about 1" of toe in. Perhaps the steering arms are
different in geometry on the kind of struts I am using from 914 struts.

Maybe the later 911 struts with 3.5" caliper bolt spacing are the same as 914 or
maybe they are different as well.

Anyway, I think I need to ditch the spacers or suffer a serious case of
bowleggedness.

It would be nice to derfinitely figure this out and publish it for future 914ers.

Thanks to Eric Shea for helping me figure this out.

John

I thought the washers had something to do with "bump steer" (which I think is the steering "wobble" you get from irregularities in the raod surface).

The washers aren't for bump steer. You need to raise/lower the steering rack in relation to the chassis in order to affect bump steer.

The washers are dual purpose, they act as 'stoppers' which will hit the steering rack and they also add overall length to the tie rod to allow for better toe-in adjustment.

I ran my first car for a long time without washers and didn't have a problem. But after learning more about them and what they're really doing, I wouldn't run a set without them now.

Vance, a special wrench really helps, and I have one that I could mail out to you to borrow. Just PM me your address and phone number.

I believe all spindle arms are not created equal. Some seem to need these and some (as per Joel and John's cars) don't.

I don't think they are meant to be bump stops for the rack. If anything they would prevent wider tires from rubbing, similar to the Elephant washers. A spherical joint screwed into the rack, with or without these will stop when the rack stops. Mark, correct me here if I'm wrong. I just did mine and I'm spacing on it to be honest with you.

It would be nice to know which struts need them and which don't. John has 911T struts with the 3" mounting ears. His don't seem to require them. I can't imagine the racks being different. They seem to be the same car to car.

Part #4 is on the stock steering rack and serves the same purpose. (pictured in gold, photo credit Wes V)

It's listed as a steering angle limiter in the PET. It probably isn't to protect the rack, but rather to protect the body from getting rubbed by the wheels. Either way, I think it's smarter to have a washer to stop the rack, rather than potentially having internal steering rack parts colliding.

Anyone have disassembled steering rack pictures?

Yup, the steering rack is a bar with teeth machined in a portion of it. Without a stop of some sort your pinion teeth could impact an unmachined portion of the rack and potentially cause damage. You can see the rack at the top of this picture. (photo credit Tim Hancock, Pelican Parts Thread)

Yupp, and if those teeth are rounded (either on the bar or the gear) you'll end up turning the wheel while the car happily goes straight.

You can even feel it in your steering wheel when the teeth are slipping. Happened to me a long time ago in a '74 super beetle.

It's rather scary ...
Andy

This is where I'm a tad confused. With a TTR install, that part stays on the rack does it not? This way you have a place for the rubber boot and those funky metal spring bands to attach to on that end (they attach to the rack on the other end). That's what I meant by them not being bump stops... the stops should already be there.

You would simply screw in the TTR spherical end where the #5 piece is going... prior to that you would decide "with or without" washers. No?

Now I'm all confused and I'm going to go cry...

Nope, the TTR comes with a rubber block on the rod shaft which acts as a seat for the boot. If you reuse that part you won't be able to install the boot correctly.

Ahhhh... that's the part I forgot.

I installed a set of the Lenforders ( spelling ) and the boots that came with them was smaller on the outboard ( wheel ) end and the boot disc was on the tierod itself. Installed the spacers on the rack end , have a set of 911 Bilstiens on the arms ,balljoints and body ( temporarily ) , have a slight toe in with this setup without any adjusting. I don't believe I will have problems later whe I switch out my franken struts ( 73 914 strut body , 89 911 spindles mounted , gussed and welded to the 914 strut body ), but will see in future.
Put the spacers on as they will limit the rack travel and keep from burring up the steering shaft gear.
If tierods are too long , trim them down and rethread the inside if you can to shorten them up.
My $.02

Jack / Jaxdream

I was told that the spacers are for if your using the 914 struts and if you have 911 struts you don't need them. When I installed mine I used large washers instead of the spacers for the rack stoppers.

So, are the spacers that come with the Lemforders too thick so you replaced them with washers of the same diameter, just thinner?

I used 911 struts AND steering rack. The washers do act as a stop. First picture is a comparison of stock and turbo and the second is the turbo installed with a washer. I never measured to see if the 914 rack is a slightly different length than the 911 that might effect if the washers add too much length. I suspect the racks are the same length though.

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

At this point it would be nice to do a strut comparison. I suspect the various spindle arms are making a difference here.

I'm using the Koni struts on both cars with the thick washers. No toe issues.

John (who brought this thread back to the top) is using 911T struts and is having problems (like others) with the thickness of the spacers. He's running out of adjustment room for proper toe.

From what I'm seeing, it appears the 911T strut may benefit from a thin washer in place of the thicker ones.

Assumption only at this point. It could also be the length of the tie rods but... they should be fairly standard.

I'm using the Koni's as well......no issues. Perhaps we need to do a parts search to see if the tie rods vary in 911 models

A thin washer will work just fine. Also note that in this case, the TTR didn't even seat correctly without a washer. (photo credit Wes V)

Mark,

Thanks for all your insights on this!

If you use a smaller diameter, thinner washer, is it then possible to crank the
steering too far one way and run out of teeth on the rack, or is the end of the
tie rod too big to go into the end of the rack?

John

The thin washers pictured above have the same OD as the supplied thick washers. You'll want something with the same OD to act as a stop.

The factory washers are:
45mm OD
16.5mm ID
7.5mm thick
(quoted from another thread, I didn't measure one)

I will try and get a picture later today. The stock 914 strut arm is straight out and the 911 strut arm is curved inward. This could play a BIG difference in how far the tie rod travels and whether the space is needed.

That's one of the obvious visual differences but... 914 arms work and so do 911 Koni strut arms. It seems the overall geometry there is the same. It would be great to see all 4 or 5 (914, Koni, 911T Boge, Bilstein, Later Boge).

The problem is showing itself on a 911T strut at this time. Mark, do you have a T strut laying around? I have an extra pair of Koni and Bilsteins here but no T struts.

'69 T Struts.

I believe this to be a 911T strut I'm putting on soon along with TTR's.
Click to view attachment

And my old 914 Bilstein strut
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

BTW, is there a special type of grease to use on the rack? I noticed a red colored grease in Wes' photo the McMark posted.

Kev

It would be nice to lay them on their backs, each with the spindle arm touching the ground and see if the spindle angles are all the same.

Good question. I need that info also. Anybody? Sheaster?

I don't really think it matters.

The factory manual states to fill the steering housing with "multipurpose grease" upon re-assembly. When you see red grease, it's usually Mobil 1 Synthetic. You'd probably want to look for a multipurpose with decent flow properties at lower temps. I'm sure the Mobil 1 is more than fine.

Here is a picture of a 75 911 Boge and 73 914 Bilstein. Boge is bent back and the Bilstein is straight. I looked a the 914 Boge and it is also straight and measures the same as the Bilstein. Here is were it gets VERY INTERESTING, the 911 and 914 both measure approximately 7 1/2" from the center of the spindle to the center of the tie rod hole. So, it proves me WRONG.

Well maybe it is only the early 911 struts that are different. I have 69 T struts
and they could not be aligned with the thick washer. I used a thin washer with
the same OD and they aligned fine with a little room to spare. The washer does
act as a stop, without it the end of the tie rod goes into the rack.

Getting the fat end of the rubber boots onto the steering rack is a pain. It is
easiest to grip them with sharp nosed vise grips and use a flat screw driver
to pry them onto the rack. Then twist the part you got on up into the car
and repeat with the other side.

Now that I actually know how to do it, this is probably a 2 hour job at most.

John

PS. I had a hell of a time getting the TTRs off to take off the fat washer. In
the end I used a big pipe wrench on the fat part next to the rack. There is
limited space in the steering well and a normal wrench was not oriented so
I could turn it. It also helps to turn the wheels all the way one way or
the other to get access to the inside of the TTRs next to the rack. You need
to be sure you are turning the TTRs the right way. I looked at the threads
on the old non-turbo ends to make sure I was pipe wrenching the right
direction.