ok, i have made a final decision on the engine for my project car, and it is going to be a 2.2 SIX. I am going to use E cams, and S pistons. I was wondering about a few things though... 1. If i am using a Vellios oil tank, which has AN fittings, what adapters do i need for the engine?? i need to mod the oil cooler, so i am just going to go ahead, and put a AN fitting on there..., but what about all the other connections....?? 2. what is the exact route of the oil system... starting with the oil tank, and ending with the oil tank.... the whole system seems a little complicated... 3. The last question for now... where can i get a bell crank throttle linkage?? i liked the one i saw in trekkors SIX thread, but i havn't found anyone selling these... could someone direct me to one, or do i have to fab my own?? Thanks in advance!
Barry

QUOTE

2. what is the exact route of the oil system... starting with the oil tank, and ending with the oil tank.... the whole system seems a little complicated...

Oil tank -> Oil Pump (oil enters pump just below engine mounted oil cooler)
Oil Pump - Through Engine to Scavange pump (all inside engine)
Scavange Pump -> Return to tank (or thermostat and external oil cooler then back to tank)

It all depends on if you are running an external oil cooler.

QUOTE

3. The last question for now... where can i get a bell crank throttle linkage?? i liked the one i saw in trekkors SIX thread, but i havn't found anyone selling these... could someone direct me to one,

Try Dan Root (Root Werks) I thought he did those things. I'm not a fan of all that Monkey motion. (I use a stock 914-4 cable and a custom linkage)

Clewett makes the AN to metric adapter you need for the engine, Makes them in -12 and -16

QUOTE (grasshopper @ Dec 23 2005, 03:36 PM)

1. If i am using a Vellios oil tank, which has AN fittings, what adapters do i need for the engine?? i need to mod the oil cooler, so i am just going to go ahead, and put a AN fitting on there..., but what about all the other connections....??

don't use the Vellios tank ...
2 out of 3 i have seen LEAK

the repro tanks in the eComm are available again ...
Andy

Barry,

are you going to build up a fresh engine?
I'm curious why you choose the 2.2
(I've been pondering and plotting about a 2.2, and am very excited about that size of motor, so don't take this negatively)

There is a set of used 2.2S pistons over on pelican for the last week, that I wish I had the money for by the way.

I'll bet Dan, will make you one up for sale.
If he is out, I think Rich Johnson makes a nice bellcrank set up too... (and is another good guy just like dan!)

brant

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Dec 23 2005, 02:52 PM)

QUOTE (grasshopper @ Dec 23 2005, 03:36 PM) 1. If i am using a Vellios oil tank, which has AN fittings, what adapters do i need for the engine?? i need to mod the oil cooler, so i am just going to go ahead, and put a AN fitting on there..., but what about all the other connections....?? don't use the Vellios tank ... 2 out of 3 i have seen LEAK the repro tanks in the eComm are available again ... Andy

ok, i never got what E-comm was.... could you help me out... people talk about it, but no one actually said what it was... could you help me out here

QUOTE (grasshopper @ Dec 23 2005, 03:56 PM)

ok, i never got what E-comm was.... could you help me out... people talk about it, but no one actually said what it was... could you help me out here

there's a link on top of each page here called "Club Store" ...

in there, we sell a few parts from 914 Members through a custom eCommerce interface.
we're trying to consolidate all the club members parts into one single shop. of course, you can still buy all this stuff through our members directly, we just wanted to make it easier to shop around.

anyways, we have a member that makes reproduction oiltanks that are very high quality. they also hold a bit more oil than the stock tank, which is especially good for larger engines.
they had been on backorder, but he's up to speed again with production.

Andy

Barry,

your not stupid...
try the "club store" tab at the top of the page.
I think the BEAUTIFUL aluminum tanks are under the engine listing....


ooops.... Andy beat me to it

I love the 2.2 engine, mostly because of its short stroke, which makes for high revs. I've taken my 2.2 E to 7,500 for very brief periods without mishap. It is exhilarating.

When JOhnman says the oil goes from the oil tank to the oil pump, he's right, technically. But along the way the oil goes through a pipe that is physically part of the oil cooler.

There's only two external oil lines you need to be concerned about. 1) from the bottom of the oil tank, rearward in the wheel well then to the pipe under (part of) the oil cooler, then to the oil pump and 2) from the scavenge pump, out the passenger side of the engine, forward to near the firewall, then across to the oil tank.

I have a two sets of E cams, if you're interested.

Michel Richard

oh, ok. Thanks.... i didn't know that was the E-comm thing... thanks for all the reply's so far... but $750 for an oil tank .....

QUOTE (brant @ Dec 23 2005, 02:55 PM)

Barry, are you going to build up a fresh engine? I'm curious why you choose the 2.2 (I've been pondering and plotting about a 2.2, and am very excited about that size of motor, so don't take this negatively)

the reason i am doing a 2.2, is because i have a 2.2 in my garage i pulled it out of a very low milage 911T. We got it running real well, and little to our knowledge... after looking at the engine, it already has oil fed chain tensioners, and upgraded to webber carbs.... it also has the original carbs with it, which i plan on selling, to raise money for conversion parts... it is a good solid motor... and i have heard a lot of good about 2.2 engines... i might upgrade later on, but for now i am content with a 2.2

Money is what a conversion is all about....get used to it.

QUOTE (SLITS @ Dec 23 2005, 04:24 PM)

Money is what a conversion is all about....get used to it.

unfortunately there is some truth to that statement.
Its expensive.... although A lot of people on this site have done a good job of making it more economical...

IIRC, you want S heads too. If you can find them and afford them too.

I would pick the new GPR tank over the cast aluminum tank, for several reasons. The GPR tank has more oil capacity, installs just like a factory tank (with the filter console boot and the other seals), and you can actually get a response from GPR. I've never heard of one of the GPR tanks leaking, but I can't say the same for the cast aluminum tanks which weigh about six times as much as the GPR tank. The nice thing about the GPR tank is it's available with factory fittings or AN fittings.

I usually stock the GPR tanks, as well as some of the AN adapters.

If you have the later style engine oil cooler with the larger slip on hose, it's very easy to convert that to AN. If you have a early style oil cooler with the Porsche flare fitting, this can be modified with the fitting from Clewitt, or it can be modified by a really skilled welder.

The easiest way to go for a small displacement engine is if you can find a 914-6 engine oil cooler, the 914-6 oil pipe, and a OEM oil line kit. This isn't the budget way to go, but it will be the easiest to put together.

It's a great project and you will learn a lot in doing it.

Have fun...I did.


KT

Factory oil routing
I bought a real nice factory tank 500.00 and a not so nice one but had the filter adapter and filler neck 400.00
Good Luck , another convert

thanks for all the reply's. After all the talk about the crappy aftermarket ones, i might just use some money from other areas, and buy the one in the club store... or find a good original used one... Trekkor, which tank did you use?? did you have any problems?? Thanks guys! i'm excited now

I have a 2.2S-spec engine w/ Webers and it is definitely a nice match for a "factory like" 914-6 setup. The 2.0 and 2.2 are zingers that will run at high revs all day long. Not a ton of torque, but if you have that, then you'd get the itch for flares, 10" wheels, etc. etc....

Good tips above. I would have to double check but I think my throttle bellcrank & bracket setup either came from Rich Johnson or perhaps the guy/shop who fabs the parts for him (I am honestly not sure what he builds vs what he sources from outside and resells.) It works well. You do either have to drill and tap the intermediate plate or use an aftermarket plate already with the mount point, to use this type of throttle linkage.

Have fun w/ the conversion!

BTW I got this on ebay for $400 IIRC (might have been less). NOS factory tank, sat in a guys garage for years waiting for that project that never got off the ground. Turned out he only lived 2 miles from me so I picked it up in person and chatted p-car stuff for a while.

QUOTE

Trekkor, which tank did you use??

Used Vellios...No leaks. AN -16 out, -12 in.

What motor mount will you use?

this otta be fun


KT

Patrick Motorsports shows one on their website for like 500 bucks...looks like it might even have a drain plug on the bottom. Anybody have any experience with the tanks he sells?

QUOTE (trekkor @ Dec 23 2005, 06:43 PM)

QUOTE Trekkor, which tank did you use?? Used Vellios...No leaks. AN -16 out, -12 in. What motor mount will you use? this otta be fun KT

I havn't decided which mount to use yet.. i dont favor the quick six mount very much, but the bulkhead mount is expensive, but i think that is worth it... you have a quick six dont you trekkor?? how do you like it??

QUOTE

how do you like it??

It's great...No cracks. Easy install.
Price was right. Thanks Bill.
It's strong.

15 a/x's and 7 track days in a year should prove *something*


Plus, I can go back to a FOUR any time...



KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Dec 23 2005, 07:23 PM)

QUOTE how do you like it?? It's great...No cracks. Easy install. Price was right. Thanks Bill. It's strong. 15 a/x's and 7 track days in a year should prove *something* Plus, I can go back to a FOUR any time... KT

so are there any down sides to using a quick six mount?? i hear vavle adjustment can be hard with the factory four mounts in...

People say they break.

Valve adusts on a SIX are pretty much done with the engine on the ground.

Sorry.

QUOTE (trekkor @ Dec 23 2005, 07:45 PM)

People say they break.

i'd hate to have my car come to a screaching halt, just to look under and see my engine laying under the car

Exactly...
Where are the true life stories?

I've only heard that from people for no apparent reason have a problem with PMS


KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Dec 23 2005, 08:58 PM)

Exactly... Where are the true life stories? I've only heard from people for no apparent reason have a problem with PMS KT

small sixes are ok with a PMS bar....

i hear the big 3.0+ motors break them....

QUOTE (trekkor @ Dec 23 2005, 07:45 PM)

Valve adusts on a SIX are pretty much done with the engine on the ground. Sorry.

Not at my house. Valve adjusts are easier than a CIS 9eleben.

the PMS bulkhead style is expensive, but it makes motor drops very easy...

heck at the PCA club race in september we dropped the motor 3 times in the pits on saturday.... and I still got some practice and a qualifying session in.
(broken rocker shaft)

it certainly helps with valve adjustments.
so does the right valve cover hardware (which I will have by spring)

The valve adjust is fairly easy, provided you don't have 4 guys sitting around a 10 degree garage arguing about it. (Hi Lawrence and Gint!!!).



As for the tanks, the factory tanks are still available.

The quick six mount seems cheezy to me. I would go with a bulkhead mount. The mounts that Rich Johnson sells are much stronger than the factory six mount. No worries about the motor falling out of the car.

I'm all for saving time and doing the valve adjust with the motor in the car...but.

How long does it take?

How does one get around the tight quarters?

Valve adusts were *fun* enough with the FOUR.



KT

QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Dec 23 2005, 09:54 PM)

The quick six mount seems cheezy to me. I would go with a bulkhead mount. The mounts that Rich Johnson sells are much stronger than the factory six mount. No worries about the motor falling out of the car.

Rich Johnson front bulkhead mount is what i will be getting for my /6 ...

Andy

I guess I'm just missing the obvious, but the PMS bar mount appears to be the strongest part on my car.


KT

QUOTE (grasshopper @ Dec 24 2005, 04:47 AM)

i'd hate to have my car come to a screaching halt, just to look under and see my engine laying under the car

Don't worry the shift bar + clutch cable cushion it...

I like Rich Johnson's design -it uses 911 mounts which will give me some vibration insulation. Not sure whether PMS has any? I like the swivelling design...but by the time I've removed my gear linkage, clutch cable etc not sure the extra 2 bolts would save that much time & I would have to jack the rear up pretty high to get clearance for valves etc. Perfect on a race car like Brant's
I don't like the quicksix -The engine weight is trying to lever the mounts forward and twist the bar - I know there is the brake line + prep but drilling a few holes and welding 4 seams isn't the biggest job?

I agree Trekkor, the PMS bar is one of the last things I'm worried about. Most of the guys running HSR are running PMS bars. I've seen a picture of one that broke, but I know it was an early one with a big motor. I've not heard it called a quick-six bar though, as I thought that was a real cheesy piece made somewhere else..

T.C.

now i have to make my decision on an engine mount bar some people say PMS bars are horrible, and some people use and like them... i guess it all depends on experience.... but one thing i dont like, is that if you use a bulkhead mount, it is permanent.... and you might as well remove the original four mounts... so then you can never just bolt a four back in there.... right now i am leaning towards the PMS bars... just because like trekkor said, you can switch back to a four any time, if your SIX goes.... so PMS it is people, dont insult me too much

QUOTE (trekkor @ Dec 23 2005, 09:21 PM)

I guess I'm just missing the obvious, but the PMS bar mount appears to be the strongest part on my car. KT

That's too bad.

The new PMS bars are fine for a 2.2. The torque gets to them if the motor is too big. They do not recommend using them with the 3.2's or 3.6's. My track 914 has a Rich Johnson mount. When you look at that thing, you can tell it's pretty stout.

My opinion is that with your motor choice you will be fine whichever bar you use. If you go bigger someday, then you have a few choices to make.

Bill P.

QUOTE (grasshopper @ Dec 24 2005, 05:59 PM)

just because like trekkor said, you can switch back to a four any time,

Has anyone ever reverted back to a four? Anyway I would've thought most people would sell on their old engine
I reckon the four would bolt right in with any bulkhead mount. I cant believe the four is longer than the six even with the impellor housing.

Looks like Maddog removed his post in the Resources Section for his "copy" of the RJ bulkhead mount.

Quick Six mount has same problems as a 4 mount....it hangs down and you can whack crap with it. My reason for a bulkhead.

ok, one more question, this one is about wiring... what is the best way to wire the engine? can i make my own wiring?? can someone post a pic of the 914-6 engine wiring diagram?? the engine harness is all corroded, and need to be replaced with something... Thanks

I think the "Quick Six" mount is the one from Motor Miester.

The PMS bar is like a roll bar with tabs on it.
Allows you to use the 911 sport motor mounts, too.

My comment about going back to a FOUR was a joke...Mostly

If I do blow up my SIX, I do have options.


BTW, the bar mount doesn't drag, headers and air disturbing flaps are the same height or lower.


KT

Well KT, the bar I'm talkin' about is an early 4 bar with the /6 engine mount welded on it. The flaps are flexible, the bar isn't and as low as I am the bar catches shit (speed bumps, etc), but the HE's don't hit.....this experience is on a 4 banger......

The only parts* of my car that ever scrape on a speed bump are the bolts for my sub-belt. My car is one of the lower ones as well.

If I pull off the side of the road and there is a low shoulder, I've nicked the headers.

Just telling my story


KT






* Sweeper Air Dam doesn't count

trek -like the orange heads..

QUOTE (thesey914 @ Dec 24 2005, 03:13 AM)

I like Rich Johnson's design  -it uses 911 mounts which will give me some vibration insulation. Not sure whether PMS has any? I like the swivelling design...but by the time I've removed my gear linkage, clutch cable etc not sure the extra 2 bolts would save that much time & I would have to jack the rear up pretty high to get clearance for valves etc. Perfect on a race car like Brant's

James,

it even easier than that.
to do a valve adjustment this is all I have to remove:

1x right rear air horn and air cleaner
1x shift linkage bar
1x clamp that I screwed into the chassis to hold the extra oil line up out of the way
4x 13mm nuts and bolts that hold the rear tranny mounts on.

that is it!
don't have to remove the exhaust.
don't remove the clutch cable
don't remove the throttle cable
don't unhook any electrical connections
don't unhook any oil lines.

when we designed the lines and cables we routed them in such a way as to accomodate this. It is supper easy to tip the motor for valve adjustments. To be honest, this is the ONLY reason we went with this mount. It takes longer to drain the oil than it does to tip the motor for valves. I'll bet we adjusted the valves 7 - 10 times this last summer. (new motor)

brant

QUOTE (trekkor @ Dec 23 2005, 09:13 PM)

I'm all for saving time and doing the valve adjust with the motor in the car...but. How long does it take? How does one get around the tight quarters? Valve adusts were *fun* enough with the FOUR. KT

I have a system. Actual working time is 4-6 hours.
What tight quarters? A 90 deg bend in your feeler gauge
and proper tools. I do it yearly when the car is up on blocks....may do it today, in fact.

As Brant says, I remove nuthin' but the cam covers & engine lid.

QUOTE (grasshopper @ Dec 24 2005, 12:22 PM)

ok, one more question, this one is about wiring... what is the best way to wire the engine? can i make my own wiring?? can someone post a pic of the 914-6 engine wiring diagram?? the engine harness is all corroded, and need to be replaced with something... Thanks

the six engine wiring harness should be very simple:

2 wires for the coil (copy /4)
oil temp (copy /4)
oil pressure (copy /4)

check out the blog from lapuwali, he has a excellent wiring diagram write-up with the pinouts you'll need or want.

you might as well go with as much new wiring/connectors as you can to help eliminate electrical gremlins in the future