I've read a number of threads here about the pertronics module and how the 'aw shit' factor comes in. Looks like they have listened.

QUOTE

Senses incorrectly wired Ignitor II or a “key left on” condition and shuts down the system protecting the coil and other components from damage.

I have a Pertronics module Could you expand on this a bit?

maybe I can help here.

A pertronix works very well ( much better than points) when hooked up in a 914 (or any car for argument's sake). It uses a hall effect sensor, which is based on magnets as opposed to a dizzy cam and points. It also elimates distributor cam wear, and from my personal experience, it also made the car smoother running. The problem with the setup is that the hall effect sensor is very delicate and very sensitive to heat. When left on, the sensor is burned out. Apparently, Ignitor II is "smart" enough to shut itself down when the key is left on (good idea). Another note...The quickest way to kill a Pertronix is to hook it up backwards. They got this one solved too, according to the first post.

b

Ignitor II has been out for many years. But it was only made for a couple of applications (Ford V8 and Chevy V8 or something). Maybe they will make one for our cars one of these days.

Demick

Looks like they do!

Ignitor II for Bosch

Great! now I will buy the 4th one. Every time someone else drove my car they left the key on and burned out the Pertronix. Went thru 3 of them that way at $75 each. points are cheaper.

All this improvement after only 30 years? Their response to the design problem is both swift and innovative! The Cap'n

The II also has dwell control, which senses the coil charge and adjusts dwell as necessary to reach a particular charge level, rather than doing it based on a fixed time (as the first model does), or on a curve that gets shorter as the revs rise, as points do (and is backwards from what you want).

They don't have all the bugs worked out, yet. I managed to blow up the only Ignitor II I had, anyway. The Ignitor I that replaced it is still working to this day, thousands of miles later. I still haven't figured out what blew it up, but it let the smoke out after a few cranks.

Leaving the key on even with points isn't too good for your coil, if the points are closed. Coils don't like being fed current 100% of the time. If you need switched power for some reason with the engine off, disconnect the coil wire.

Pertronix quality control has always been pretty hit and miss, and I've found there's a 30-50% chance the unit will be dead in the box. This is really too bad, as it's a great idea. I'm guessing they simply find returning and replacing them to be less expensive than improving their QA.

Has Pertronix really been around for 30 years? I was under the impression it was more like 15 years.

Do you think all this dwell control and exta goodies of the II will actually accomplish anything or is it just bling? I'm talking about a stock engine not a Raby screamer. The good Cap'ns dry wit makes sense - properly maintained points have worked for 30 years. I'm considering the pertronix just to make maintenance easier and ensure that starts are reliable.

I have a Ignitor II on my car. The dwell adjust thing is supposed to sense cranking and adjust dwell for a faster start. The other new feature is that you no longer have to run a 3 ohm coil or a resistor on your coil. The ignitor II will work with a .6 ohm coil.

QUOTE (swl @ Dec 28 2005, 08:57 AM)

Do you think all this dwell control and exta goodies of the II will actually accomplish anything or is it just bling? I'm talking about a stock engine not a Raby screamer. The good Cap'ns dry wit makes sense - properly maintained points have worked for 30 years. I'm considering the pertronix just to make maintenance easier and ensure that starts are reliable. The Cap'n

I've used "Perlux" (which I believe is pre-Pretronix), Crane Allison, and Compufire since the late 70s. In fact, one of the principals at Porschop in LA did a lot of the mechanical R&D for Allison when they started up in the mid 70s. I've had 2 Crane Allison failures out of about 50 units installed One after a few weeks, one after a few years), NO Compufire failures, and nearly 90% failures in Pertronix, most of which came in on a hook after someone else sold them the product. I won't sell 'em. Compufire installs easier, has much better QC, and doesn't cost much more.

The Ignitor II senses current levels in the coil and adjusts the dwell to maintain peak energy throughout the entire RPM range. Dwell time is increased or decreased with changing engine RPM and operating conditions. This provides more energy at high RPM reducing misfires while improving engine performance.

Compared to point type systems, develops on average 4 times more available energy between 3000 and 5000 RPM and 2 times more available plug voltage.
Compared to the original Ignitor develops an average 3 times more available energy between 3000 and 5000 RPM and nearly doubles available plug voltage.

Higher RPM performance is improved when used with new Flame-Thrower II super low resistance (0.6 ohms) 45,000 volt coil, however, is compatible with any induction coil.
Because peak current level is reached just prior to spark, ignition energy is sustained with less heat build-up increasing coil and module life.

Adjusts spark timing over the entire RPM range to compensate for the inherent electronic delay resulting in more stable timing. Senses engine startup and increases dwell time providing more energy for starting sparks. Senses incorrectly wired Ignitor II or a “key left on” condition and shuts down the system protecting the coil and other components from damage. Shares all the same form features as the Ignitor i.e. electronics molded in epoxy for better foul weather performance, no moving or rubbing parts to wear out, fits entirely inside the distributor, no “black box” to clutter your engine compartment, no complicated wiring makes installation easy, compatible with 12-volt negative ground systems and comes with a 30 month warranty.

QUOTE (swl @ Dec 28 2005, 08:57 AM)

Do you think all this dwell control and exta goodies of the II will actually accomplish anything or is it just bling? I'm talking about a stock engine not a Raby screamer. The good Cap'ns dry wit makes sense - properly maintained points have worked for 30 years. I'm considering the pertronix just to make maintenance easier and ensure that starts are reliable.

It's really hard to say. Points are crude, but they're effective. If they're treated well, they can last for well over 20,000 miles, meaning you'd have to adjust the valves 3-4 times between points replacement, so the maintenance isn't really improved all that much. On a conservatively tuned engine, you'd probably not notice the difference between new-ish points and any Pertronix.

The whole "high precision" thing can be taken too far. I recently checked the timing on my 912, with a fresh distributor and fresh points. At idle, the timing was pretty rock solid. By 4000rpm (normal cruising speed on this engine), the spark scatter was so bad the timing mark was blurry and actual timing was somewhere in a 5-8 degree window from event to event. Pretty much puts paid to the whole idea of getting timing set within one degree.

I'd venture that unless you're going all the way to multi-coil crank-triggered ignition, the differences are too small to bother with on most street engines between one type of ignition and another. Being able to accurately keep the timing within a degree and get the coil charge exactly right, etc., is no doubt useful when you're building a very high performance engine, as you can tune the thing a lot closer to the point of blowing up w/o crossing that line. On a mild daily driver, however, the difference is a lot less important.

QUOTE

If they're treated well, they can last for well over 20,000 miles, meaning you'd have to adjust the valves 3-4 times between points replacement, so the maintenance isn't really improved all that much.

but any time not spent with my butt in the air and my head down in the engine bay is worth it! Getting too old for that nonsense!

Cap'n - sounds like you've seen enough of these that your stats are solid. No failures is a pretty good number Since reliability is my primary concern going with compufire sounds good.

I'm going to replace the coil and wires as well. Any thoughts about doing the full DIS-IX kit? Further reduces wearout parts by eliminating the rotor and cap. These look like they are designed for type 1. If memory serves type one doesn't have the 2 longer spark plug ends. I found one vendor that offers it without the wires.

DIS-iX kit

Increased spark accuracy (timing) as well as advance changes benefit ANY engine! As a matter of fact they benefit those "Non Raby screamers" more than anyone would believe.

This is the facts... The pertronix / compufire replaces points, it's still based on the sloppy mechanicals of the 009 dizzy with its lack of initial advance adjustment and it's non adjustable advance curve. Install the pertronix into a 009 slightly "Polishes a turd".... and while it's better it still isn't going to give you more power, MPG or reduce head temps.

Installing the DIS-IX is a "Super turd polishing" experience.... They call it a "Distribtorless ignition system" but its not! How the hell can you have a DIS system when its based on a distributor and it still uses that distributors crappy advance mechanism?? That system is no better than the dizzy it's sitting on top of as it's no more accurate or adjustable than the crappy 009 was to begin with.


Whats the real answer??? Two words:
Mallory Unilite
Accuracy and adjustability with no need for a little magnetic sensor because it has an optical pick up....
I have about 80K miles on the cap and rotor on the one in my 912E and every car I own has one, I even made a retro fit for the Pinzgauer and modified it to work with 24 volts- that gave me 4 MPG on a big ole honkin Austrian military truck and much better throttle response at low revs in low range 4X4. If I noticed a difference in a 5,000 pound truck turning 34" tall tires the difference can be noted in about anything.

Buy a Mallory. set it. Forget it. Four years later when you verify the timing it'll still be exactly where you set it.

Try that with a 009.

IMHO, those DIS kits are nearly worthless. They still rely on the mechanical advance curve from the distributor, and the 009 advance curve is utter crap.

Damn I love this place! More accumulated knowledge than you can shake a stick at! Means however that there is no such thing as an easy answer!

Did some more reading. The 009 is a type one distributor. Ours is a 050? The compufire will fit in the 050 with 'some distributor modification'. I really didn't set out to replace the distributor - is the standard distributor as bad as the 009? Adjustable is not necessarily good unless you know what you are doing.

"050" is the same body as the 009, same internals as well.. Just a different advance curve... It was originally designed for the 616 engine that uses a Hemi chamber, it was not designed for the TIV engine.

IMHO its WORSE than the 009, it sets up horribly retarded at idle and unless you run 32+ degrees of full advance it jas less than 5 degrees initial advance at idle. This is why it worked wel on the 616, they love high advance due to the semi hemi chamber.

It's sixties technology- today it's 40 years behind the times.

The adjustability is a good thing, especioally when you buy one pre set for use on a TIV engine, thats the only way I sale the mallory- ready to install, no tweaking needed, unless you want to..

Many people are happy with the 009 and the 050, most have never experienced the difference of a better arrangement.. It's almost like a cable/DSL connection- once you leave dial up you can't go back!

Is is possible to upgrade the stock DJET with a Mallory Unilite?

Finding an 050 isn't all that easy, either. You can't buy them new, anymore.

If you're still running FI, you can't use anything but the stock distributor. If you're running carbs, then just hold your nose and get a Mallory Unilite. It's very reliable.

I'm sure Jake can measure a difference between one ignition setup and another, but still, IMHO, on a street engine, you'll not be able to FEEL or otherwise detect the difference without a dyno. My butt isn't so finely calibrated I can tell the difference between 100hp and 105hp, and I suspect most butts are equally bad at measuring this.

You can feel the differences in the better advance curve.... Very easily.
The differences in the idle and off idle performance is notable...

Advance curve, yes. But can you FEEL the difference between fresh points and a electronic trigger, assuming the advance curves are the same? That was the original question.

I can see and feel the difference between fresh points and a Pertronix in my stock 2L 914. The Pertronix smoothed out the idle and made the timing much easier to set because the timing mark was no longer jumping all over the place.

I've had good luck with the Pertronix but if I was doing it over I might buy the Compufire on the Captain's recommendation.

Someone asked about putting a Mallory on a D-Jet car - you can't do it. You need the stock distributor with the trigger points for D-Jet.

And you can see the difference (on a CHT gauge) when you don't have to jack the hell out of the full advance to attain enough initial advance to wake the engine up at low RPM.

As piston speed and RPM increases the need for advance is lessened, some engines I build like less than 20 degrees full advance to make their best (most usable) power and yield their best MPG and head temps.

Tuning is everything, you can't tune with a crappy dizzy- period.

Sorry guys. I have a bit of newbi-itis here. I've done a couple of searches and realize that the stock distributor is neither 009 or 050. I'm running the stock distributor with stock D-Jet. So that means the unilite distributor is out of the question without some fancy circuitry to replace the trigger points.

When you folks talk about the type of distributor is that a reference to the first 3 digits? As in 022 for the 1.7/1.8 and 039 for the 2L.

Does anyone know if the compufire fits in the stock distributor?

what about the fireball??? that optical distributer cap. and there has to be a way to used a mallory with F.I.

I'll get some electrical engineers on it right away

There IS a way to use a Mallory with "FI", just use aftermarket FI or L-Jet. With D-Jet, the primary injector signal is from the trigger points in the distributor. You can simulate trigger points with other setups (Mueller did an optical setup once), but if you're going to that kind of trouble, then just get aftermarket EFI and be done with it.

swl, the distributor part number we're referencing is the last three digits. The stock distributor is a variety of the 205 series (there's more than one, just as there's more than one 009). I have no idea if Compufire, et al, will fit in the stock distributor. I know a Crane setup will.

wow. I never thought that i'd be happy to have an L Jet. Everyone told me they were the worst you could have. HA!

So where does the L jet get the injection signal.

Sorry- i'm new to 914's. But i've been hip to the 911's and 356's for a while. Even worked on real RSR's

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Dec 28 2005, 04:34 PM)

wow. I never thought that i'd be happy to have an L Jet. Everyone told me they were the worst you could have. HA! So where does the L jet get the injection signal. Sorry- i'm new to 914's. But i've been hip to the 911's and 356's for a while. Even worked on real RSR's

The L-Jet system doesn't "get" an injection signal, really.

D-Jet attempted to be more or less sequential in its injection, and used two sets of trigger contacts to fire pairs of injectors once per crank rev. These signals are fed into the ECU, through the MPS, and on to the injectors to open and close them.

L-Jet drives the injectors very differently. It uses the tach pulse (same one the tach on the dash uses) to get engine speed, and processes that in the ECU using the signals from the airflow meter, and the ECU opens and closes the injectors to meter the fuel. There's no attempt to synchronize injection events to cylinder or valve events. It just makes sure enough fuel gets squirted in to match the amount of air being consumed by the engine.

so the d-jet is better for performance unless you want to use a mallory or do something else different and exotic?

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Dec 28 2005, 05:45 PM)

so the d-jet is better for performance unless you want to use a mallory or do something else different and exotic?

No, D-Jet isn't "better". Indeed, D-Jet wasn't even used on all that many cars (914s, along with some VW, Mercedes, Volvos, even Jag V12s), and pretty much died out completely by the mid-70s. L-Jet, however, was a more modern system, and was used on a HUGE number of cars from the mid-70s into the 90s, including all later Porsches (DME was basically a modification of L-Jet).

Most of these OEM EFI systems aren't very good for modified engines, as they're not programmable. L-Jet has more wiggle room here, but it still has limitations. Nowadays, using programmable aftermarket EFI is a better bet.

alpha34, we need to get you on our local email list. Send me an email or PM. Did you recently buy that 75 914 that was on craigslist?

L jet works fine with a Mallory....

I'm using the DIS-IX in my VW Squareback. A Mallory dizzy won't fit under the decklid.

The power difference IS noticeable. 5th gear up a hill I know would just keep me at a constant speed with a stock ignition system. Set up with the distributorless system (which, I agree, isn't accurate) I can easily accelerate up that same hill.

I've used the Compufire and the Pertronix electronic points without failures for years. Sounds like I'm one of the lucky ones. I would not hesitate to use such a unit in any of my cars. I'm not using one in my 914 right now because the dizzy needs a rebuild I believe. Can't get the damn thing to hold a steady timing

And there's nothing wrong with a magnetic sensor compared to an optical one.

My experienced $0.02.